RealGM Top 25 Player Poll-#13 2019-20

[Kurt Heimlich]

Vote Draymond
Nominate Oladipo (do people forget how good he is or is this because he's going to miss part of the season?)

It's the injury. But I'm nominating him here as well, he should be back by December/January.

Voted Gobert

Nominate: Oladipo

[iggymcfrack]

Vote: Gobert
Nom: Olidipo

I'm kind of surprised Westbrook went #12. IMO he was below that last year and I don't see his game aging well. For now it's Gobert and Towns, then probably Blake

Why do you like Gobert so many spots ahead of Draymond Green? Would anyone really rather have Gobert when the playoffs roll around? He still has yet to have one good playoff series in his entire career. Draymond has been one of the Top 5 players in the playoffs over the course of the last 5 seasons and maybe even was last year. He really didn’t seem like he’d lost a single step once the games started to matter.

Oof...I wonder what it is about Gobert that causes people to produce these outlandish over exaggerations.

OK, maybe 2018 against the Thunder I guess? So one good series. He was still useless against the Rockets 2 years in a row and the Warriors the year before that. As opposed to Draymond who has a legitimate argument that he’s been more valuable in the playoffs than Steph Curry and Kevin Durant. I don’t get why you’d want a guy who has yet to prove he can make an impact in the playoffs at all over one of the most battle-tested winners in the entire league. I mean I know Dray can be a whiny little bitch, but you still have to respect his game. He’s damn good.

[iggymcfrack]

Vote Draymond
Nominate Oladipo (do people forget how good he is or is this because he's going to miss part of the season?)

It's the injury. But I'm nominating him here as well, he should be back by December/January.

Voted Gobert

Nominate: Oladipo

You kinda have to wonder how effective he’ll be right away when he returns too. That’s a long time to be out and a tricky injury to recover from. If he was absolutely 100% healthy, I’d probably have him something like #12 overall, but if he misses a couple months and is only like 80% when he returns, he’s a lot less valuable.

[KqWIN]

Why do you like Gobert so many spots ahead of Draymond Green? Would anyone really rather have Gobert when the playoffs roll around? He still has yet to have one good playoff series in his entire career. Draymond has been one of the Top 5 players in the playoffs over the course of the last 5 seasons and maybe even was last year. He really didn’t seem like he’d lost a single step once the games started to matter.

Oof...I wonder what it is about Gobert that causes people to produce these outlandish over exaggerations.

OK, maybe 2018 against the Thunder I guess? So one good series. He was still useless against the Rockets 2 years in a row and the Warriors the year before that. As opposed to Draymond who has a legitimate argument that he’s been more valuable in the playoffs than Steph Curry and Kevin Durant. I don’t get why you’d want a guy who has yet to prove he can make an impact in the playoffs at all over one of the most battle-tested winners in the entire league. I mean I know Dray can be a whiny little bitch, but you still have to respect his game. He’s damn good.

I don't necessarily disagree with you on Dray. I think he's great. I didn't make a comment about Dray, I made a comment about these ridiculous over exaggerations that you've continued to spill. I don't understand why you would have to make huge over exaggerations about another player to support him. But that is very much the flavor of (bad) forum discussion these days. Whenever I see these things, it just makes me less convinced of everything that person says.

For me, a convincing argument is one that shows me the effort and considerations of alternatives that went into making the decisions. When you say things like Gobert has "yet to prove he can make an impact at all" or that "he was useless against the Rockets 2 years in a row and the Warriors the year before that" it shows how much consideration has gone into your argument. Those things are objectively not true. You're intentionally over exaggerating and building a narrative that doesn't exist or you're just grossly misinformed and ignorant. These over exaggerations are not real arguments. It's certainly not an argument as to why Draymond is good. If you like apples more than oranges, you don't have to say that Oranges are trash and Vitamin C has no value at all.

I think Gobert's playoff ability and success is something to be discussed, but when say things like he's a liability, useless, or has failed to make any impact at all you're showing a complete disregard for actual discussion. When you these things, it's hard to take what you say seriously.

[Effigy]

Vote Draymond
Nominate Oladipo (do people forget how good he is or is this because he's going to miss part of the season?)

It's the injury. But I'm nominating him here as well, he should be back by December/January.

Voted Gobert

Nominate: Oladipo

You kinda have to wonder how effective he’ll be right away when he returns too. That’s a long time to be out and a tricky injury to recover from. If he was absolutely 100% healthy, I’d probably have him something like #12 overall, but if he misses a couple months and is only like 80% when he returns, he’s a lot less valuable.

Same with Klay. He'd be on the board already if he wasn't injured.

[spicy6]

This sub massively overrates a guy who has yet to prove anything offensively and on both ends was a net negative for two straight post seasons against the rockets. Hes never made it past the second round either, cant shoot, and is who he is. Top 13 is a massive reach for Gobert.

[jirrit]

Vote: Ben Simmons
Nominate: Steven Adams

[iggymcfrack]

Oof...I wonder what it is about Gobert that causes people to produce these outlandish over exaggerations.

OK, maybe 2018 against the Thunder I guess? So one good series. He was still useless against the Rockets 2 years in a row and the Warriors the year before that. As opposed to Draymond who has a legitimate argument that he’s been more valuable in the playoffs than Steph Curry and Kevin Durant. I don’t get why you’d want a guy who has yet to prove he can make an impact in the playoffs at all over one of the most battle-tested winners in the entire league. I mean I know Dray can be a whiny little bitch, but you still have to respect his game. He’s damn good.

I don't necessarily disagree with you on Dray. I think he's great. I didn't make a comment about Dray, I made a comment about these ridiculous over exaggerations that you've continued to spill. I don't understand why you would have to make huge over exaggerations about another player to support him. But that is very much the flavor of (bad) forum discussion these days. Whenever I see these things, it just makes me less convinced of everything that person says.

For me, a convincing argument is one that shows me the effort and considerations of alternatives that went into making the decisions. When you say things like Gobert has "yet to prove he can make an impact at all" or that "he was useless against the Rockets 2 years in a row and the Warriors the year before that" it shows how much consideration has gone into your argument. Those things are objectively not true. You're intentionally over exaggerating and building a narrative that doesn't exist or you're just grossly misinformed and ignorant. These over exaggerations are not real arguments. It's certainly not an argument as to why Draymond is good. If you like apples more than oranges, you don't have to say that Oranges are trash and Vitamin C has no value at all.

I think Gobert's playoff ability and success is something to be discussed, but when say things like he's a liability, useless, or has failed to make any impact at al you're showing a complete disregard for actual discussion. When you these things, it's hard to take what you say seriously.

What would you call the team being 10 points worse with you on the floor over your entire playoff career and never having a positive on/off or NetRtg? Even the defense has been worse with him on the floor and that's supposed to be his calling card. If he's made an impact, it wasn't a positive one. Here's an article from a Jazz blog talking about how awful he was against Houston in 2018, it's not like I'm making it up:
https://www.slcdunk.com/2019/4/13/18306750/2019-nba-playoffs-rudy-gobert-clint-capela-utah-jazz-houston-rockets

And then he followed that up with a series where the Jazz were -50 with him in the game and +4 with him on the bench. I'm sorry if I exaggerated a small amont, but it wasn't intentional and I do believe the substance of the argument is sound. He's shown a complete inability to produce a real defensive impact going against the top guards in the league in the postseason. If having Steph or Curry or George or LeBron on the floor is enough to neutralize your impact, then I don't see how you can really have much value in the West.

[baldur]

voted KAT
nominate Lowry
remove durant

[leolozon]

Nominate Aldridge.

He should be top 25 and he seems underrated at this point. He’s a better scorer than Derozan, Mitchell and Oladipo (none of those are great defenders). And I think he’s more consistent than Lowry.

[Jazz Dog]

Voted Gobert. 3rd team all nba and back to back DPY

Nominate D Mitchell

[OkcSinceSGA]

Wow. People picking Butler/Westbrook/KAT (maybe) over Gobert?

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[leolozon]

Damn how is Luka Doncic already up there before Kyle Lowry.

Lowry and Aldridge are two of the most disrespected players in the League

I don’t know. Doncic should get better next year and Lowry Has already started his decline and It won’t get better next year as he turns 33 (small guards age the worst). Lowry really only has defense on Doncic. Doncic is probably a better scorer, rebounder and at least as good of a playmaker.

I think it’s logical to think Doncic will be better than Lowry next year.

[dorkestra]

Vote: Ben Simmons
Nominate: Steven Adams

[KqWIN]

What would you call the team being 10 points worse with you on the floor over your entire playoff career and never having a positive on/off or NetRtg? Even the defense has been worse with him on the floor and that's supposed to be his calling card. If he's made an impact, it wasn't a positive one. Here's an article from a Jazz blog talking about how awful he was against Houston in 2018, it's not like I'm making it up:
https://www.slcdunk.com/2019/4/13/18306750/2019-nba-playoffs-rudy-gobert-clint-capela-utah-jazz-houston-rockets

And then he followed that up with a series where the Jazz were -50 with him in the game and +4 with him on the bench. I'm sorry if I exaggerated a small amont, but it wasn't intentional and I do believe the substance of the argument is sound. He's shown a complete inability to produce a real defensive impact going against the top guards in the league in the postseason. If having Steph or Curry or George or LeBron on the floor is enough to neutralize your impact, then I don't see how you can really have much value in the West.

I would call it what it is. His team has been outscored when he's on the court. The Jazz bench has done much better against opposing benches than the Jazz starters have against opposing starters. That's actually what it is. Is there any disagreement with that? There shouldn't be, because that is objectively a fact.

Now, does that mean he is a complete liability and has made no impact at all in the playoffs? No, it doesn't. So many people seem to present this idea that if Gobert was on the bench the whole time, the Jazz would have been positive, because they were positive with him on the bench and negative when he was on it. Seems logical...if you are a bumbling idiot. Of course it doesn't work that way, and you need have a more nuanced conversation than that. The context for the minutes that Gobert is completely different than the context for the minutes he did not.

The Jazz have only played against elite guard talent during the playoffs in recent years. And when I say elite, I really mean that. Every series except for the 17 Clippers series has had more than one hall of fame level perimeter player on the opposite team. The Jazz obviously have not had the most playoff success, losing three series and just winning two. But the only thing that held up is their defense. Out of all these elite perimeter guards, the only the one who has actually killed the Jazz more than any other team is Chris Paul. It makes sense, the Jazz have a very specific defense where they concede mid range jumpers, and Paul is an all time at great at that.

You say he's shown a "complete inability to produce a real defensive impact going against the top guards". Harden's numbers are drastically worse than with Gobert on the court than without out. Quite frankly, his scoring efficiency has been really terrible whenever Gobert is on the court during the playoffs. This is all while Gobert is tasked with guarding Harden and Capela at the same time. Capela's numbers are also significantly down.

So...are we just going to throw that out because the Jazz bench outscores the Rockets bench when both Gobert and Harden are off the floor? For me personally, I would base a judgement on Harden vs Gobert based on the minutes that they were on the court together and not when they were both sitting.

Harden is the most relevant top guard Gobert has faced. He's faced him twice, and he was playing on both legs during both series. But there's a similar story for Russell Westbrook, Paul George, Steph Curry, Klay Thompson, and Kevin Durant. All of these players either had a much better time against the Jazz when Gobert was off the court or were significantly less productive than their standard when Gobert was on the court. To be fair, however, there isn't large sample sizes of these players playing against the Jazz without Gobert on the court since they almost always shared the court...but these guys didn't really light up Gobert.

The idea that elite players playing well against you in the playoffs makes you a liability is pretty insane in the first place. I don't see anyone calling Draymond Green a liability because Kawhi was great in the finals. Neither do I see Andre Igoudala being called a liability because LeBron was an animal when they met in the finals. I have seen LeBron called a defensive liability, but that's because he's standing around in a twitter clip and not because Durant was scorching the Cavs in the finals. These statements are so ridiculous. Of course they're dumb. But when we have Gobert and these elite, hall of fame perimeter guys, who have largely struggled or been (relatively) average against Gobert and the Jazz...Gobert isn't just struggling. He's a total liability who has failed to make any impact at all.

These aren't small exaggerations you're making. You're talking the reigning two time DPOY and making the claim that he is a liability who has no impact. It's not that his impact is diminished, or that he struggles...you're stretching to a point where he's never made any contribution ever. There has to be some in between here. Don't you agree?

[Metallikid]

Voted Blake Griffin

Nominate Chris Paul

[spicy6]

Wow. People picking Butler/Westbrook/KAT (maybe) over Gobert?

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Gobert isnt top 20 on a good day no need to overrate him.

[scrabbarista]

Vote Gobert.

Nominate NIKOLA VUCEVIC.

[picc]

I'm totally dumbfounded by the propping of Gobert over Green.

[GeorgeMarcus]

I'm totally dumbfounded by the propping of Gobert over Green.

Draymond is incredibly underrated