Sam Vecenie's Top 25 players aged 23 and under.

pootbrah · Post #21 » by **pootbrah** » Thu Sep 5, 2019 10:45 am

Meh indifferent to the list. Don't agree with it but it's not that bad, everyone on here I'm confident is gonna be pretty damn good. We're going into a pretty damn talented era.

leolozon · Post #22 » by **leolozon** » Thu Sep 5, 2019 1:37 pm

BoogieTime wrote:Well, with Fox at 6 and Bagley at 11 it’s more credible (what was that garbage Fox at 14, Bagley at 39 the other day).

I’d still quibble with the list. What has Booker shown in terms of winning? Simmons is a flawed player. Tatum ISO SF, better defending/efficient Rudy Gay

To be fair, the premise wasn't the same. It was best players in 5 years, so it included a lot of guys who are over 23 right now and even guys still not drafted (Wiseman #1 prospect next year). If you get rid of those, I think Bagley was 19th and Fox 8th. Still low for Bagley IMO, but Bagley is probably not going to be at his peak in 5 years, so the two lists ranked them closer than you think.

For example, this list thinks that Bagley is going to be a better player than Markkanen, M. Turner, D. Russell and J. Murray. The other list thinks that those 4 guys, at 27-28 years old, will be better than 25 years old Bagley. The two things can be true and actually make sense as most players peak around 28.

This list is way better though. I think some guys should go down/up a couple of spots, but I don't think there's anything dumb.

BloodNinja · Post #23 » by **BloodNinja** » Thu Sep 5, 2019 1:49 pm

KqWIN wrote:25) MIA - Bam Adebayo

16) CHI - Lauri Markkanen

There's a user here who will not be happy to see this!

Feel_the_Heat15 · Post #24 » by **Feel_the_Heat15** » Thu Sep 5, 2019 1:50 pm

These lists put too much weight on PPG and "hype". It's why you rarely see elite defensive players at the top. For example, how is Huerter above Adebayo? Oh right, he's a SG that can shoot that plays for the up and coming Hawks. Bagley is above Turner yet Turner is obviously light-years ahead of Bagley in defense. Same goes for Ayton who could probably average 20 PPG and STILL be a worse player than Turner.

Johnny Firpo · Post #25 » by **Johnny Firpo** » Thu Sep 5, 2019 2:01 pm

Feel_the_Heat15 wrote:These lists put too much weight on PPG and "hype". It's why you rarely see elite defensive players at the top. For example, how is Huerter above Adebayo? Oh right, he's a SG that can shoot that plays for the up and coming Hawks. Bagley is above Turner yet Turner is obviously light-years ahead of Bagley in defense. Same goes for Ayton who could probably average 20 PPG and STILL be a worse player than Turner.

I've watched a lot of Hawks games because I find their young core intriguing, and Huerter is an excellent prospect, with a high upside. I woudn't be surprised if he ends up being a multiple All-Star. There is nothing he can't do to an at least average, average to good level, and he projects to be an elite shooter down the road. He has size, IQ, not a bad athlete, and even showed promise as a secondary ball handler, initiator, with games where he had 5+ assists.

Crives · Post #26 » by **Crives** » Thu Sep 5, 2019 2:05 pm

Feel_the_Heat15 wrote:These lists put too much weight on PPG and "hype". It's why you rarely see elite defensive players at the top. For example, how is Huerter above Adebayo? Oh right, he's a SG that can shoot that plays for the up and coming Hawks. Bagley is above Turner yet Turner is obviously light-years ahead of Bagley in defense. Same goes for Ayton who could probably average 20 PPG and STILL be a worse player than Turner.

You realize the list says future projections are taken into account... this does not just take next season into account.

Feel_the_Heat15 · Post #27 » by **Feel_the_Heat15** » Thu Sep 5, 2019 2:09 pm

Crives wrote:
Feel_the_Heat15 wrote:These lists put too much weight on PPG and "hype". It's why you rarely see elite defensive players at the top. For example, how is Huerter above Adebayo? Oh right, he's a SG that can shoot that plays for the up and coming Hawks. Bagley is above Turner yet Turner is obviously light-years ahead of Bagley in defense. Same goes for Ayton who could probably average 20 PPG and STILL be a worse player than Turner.

You realize the list says future projections are taken into account... this does not just take next season into account.

I knew that before I posted that but who knows where these prospects will be in a few years? CJ McCollum averaged 7 PPG in his 2nd year, he wouldn't have even been top 25 here.

KqWIN · Post #28 » by **KqWIN** » Thu Sep 5, 2019 2:11 pm

I'm sorry guys, but "who knows what could happen" is the entire point. You're doing your best to predict something that is uncertain. That's what evaluating prospects is.

arh1109 · Post #29 » by **arh1109** » Thu Sep 5, 2019 2:11 pm

Ben Simmons should be #1 for his 9-1 game stretch without Embiid in 2018. Also no upcoming rookies.

Crizzle · Post #30 » by **Crizzle** » Thu Sep 5, 2019 2:18 pm

BoogieTime wrote:Well, with Fox at 6 and Bagley at 11 it’s more credible (what was that garbage Fox at 14, Bagley at 39 the other day).

I’d still quibble with the list. What has Booker shown in terms of winning? Simmons is a flawed player. Tatum ISO SF, better defending/efficient Rudy Gay

i dont have stock in tatum, but an efficient/good defending rudy gay isnt a bad player

TravisScott55 · Post #31 » by **TravisScott55** » Thu Sep 5, 2019 2:23 pm

Booker is way too high.

Feel_the_Heat15 · Post #32 » by **Feel_the_Heat15** » Thu Sep 5, 2019 2:25 pm

Johnny Firpo wrote:
Feel_the_Heat15 wrote:These lists put too much weight on PPG and "hype". It's why you rarely see elite defensive players at the top. For example, how is Huerter above Adebayo? Oh right, he's a SG that can shoot that plays for the up and coming Hawks. Bagley is above Turner yet Turner is obviously light-years ahead of Bagley in defense. Same goes for Ayton who could probably average 20 PPG and STILL be a worse player than Turner.

I've watched a lot of Hawks games because I find their young core intriguing, and Huerter is an excellent prospect, with a high upside. I woudn't be surprised if he ends up being a multiple All-Star. There is nothing he can't do to an at least average, average to good level, and he projects to be an elite shooter down the road. He has size, IQ, not a bad athlete, and even showed promise as a secondary ball handler, initiator, with games where he had 5+ assists.

Just because a young player can shoot 3s doesn't mean they're destined to become a great player. His FT shooting is average and he's abysmal at drawing fouls. Not saying he can't become a star but it's a lot more difficult than you think.

Feel_the_Heat15 · Post #33 » by **Feel_the_Heat15** » Thu Sep 5, 2019 2:34 pm

KqWIN wrote:I'm sorry guys, but "who knows what could happen" is the entire point. You're doing your best to predict something that is uncertain. That's what evaluating prospects is.

It is not the entire point and these prospects are being evaluated in a terrible manner.

KqWIN · Post #34 » by **KqWIN** » Thu Sep 5, 2019 2:43 pm

Feel_the_Heat15 wrote:
KqWIN wrote:I'm sorry guys, but "who knows what could happen" is the entire point. You're doing your best to predict something that is uncertain. That's what evaluating prospects is.

It is not the entire point and these prospects are being evaluated in a terrible manner.

It kinda is. We're all speculating to some degree. How would you feel if I said, "Bam had a good season, plays great defense, has intriguing offensive skills...but that doesn't he's going to be a great player going forward".

The guy you quoted listed several reasons why he thinks Huerter has a chance to become a good player. That's not terrible analysis. The "anything could happen" or "doesn't guarantee he'll breakout" arguments are actually terrible and don't add anything to the conversation.

If we can't speculate or evaluate, there is no point to having a basketball forum.

brutalitops · Post #35 » by **brutalitops** » Thu Sep 5, 2019 2:44 pm

Sam Vercenie is a weenie

There is a guy who is an All star, led his team to the finals being overlooked by a guy who hasnt played against guys who get paid to play the game of Basketball yet.

There is a guy who averages 24/12 on 50/40/80 splits for the wolves who isnt mentioned.

Trash list, thanks for posting it on this forum because if this guy isa a journalist or anythign he doesnt deserve the clicks.

Higgs Boston · Post #36 » by **Higgs Boston** » Thu Sep 5, 2019 2:46 pm

Lonzo Ball as a top20 is laughable.

Jalexjsmithj · Post #37 » by **Jalexjsmithj** » Thu Sep 5, 2019 2:51 pm

brutalitops wrote:Sam Vercenie is a weenie

There is a guy who is an All star, led his team to the finals being overlooked by a guy who hasnt played against guys who get paid to play the game of Basketball yet.

There is a guy who averages 24/12 on 50/40/80 splits for the wolves who isnt mentioned.

Trash list, thanks for posting it on this forum because if this guy isa a journalist or anythign he doesnt deserve the clicks.

Those guys are too old for this list. KAT was on it last year and aged out.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

AbeVigodaLive · Post #38 » by **AbeVigodaLive** » Thu Sep 5, 2019 3:01 pm

Jalexjsmithj wrote:
brutalitops wrote:Sam Vercenie is a weenie

There is a guy who is an All star, led his team to the finals being overlooked by a guy who hasnt played against guys who get paid to play the game of Basketball yet.

There is a guy who averages 24/12 on 50/40/80 splits for the wolves who isnt mentioned.

Trash list, thanks for posting it on this forum because if this guy isa a journalist or anythign he doesnt deserve the clicks.

Those guys are too old for this list. KAT was on it last year and aged out.

I assume Sam V. is using the calendar year? Because Towns is still only 23... at least until November. Russell turns 24 in February and is on the list.

leolozon · Post #39 » by **leolozon** » Thu Sep 5, 2019 3:08 pm

brutalitops wrote:Sam Vercenie is a weenie

There is a guy who is an All star, led his team to the finals being overlooked by a guy who hasnt played against guys who get paid to play the game of Basketball yet.

There is a guy who averages 24/12 on 50/40/80 splits for the wolves who isnt mentioned.

Trash list, thanks for posting it on this forum because if this guy isa a journalist or anythign he doesnt deserve the clicks.

If Towns isn't in there, it's obviously because he didn't meet the criteria. I'm pretty sure he used the standard "23 for most of the 2019-2020 season", so it disqualifies Towns, A. Gordon and a couple of others.

Who led his team to the Finals and isn't there?

As for Zion, most GMs would trade at least 23-24 (Luka is maybe the only exception) of those guys to get him. It's simply a risk worth taking, because he's projecting to be the best of them and projecting future performances is all abouts odds. The odds of Zion being a top 5-10 player in the league are probably better than him being a bust.

How many #1 pick that were projected as great #1 picks at the time of the draft actually busted? Most busts had big question marks and weren't considered like great #1 picks (Bennett, Wiggins, Kwame, Olowokandi, Bargnani). If not, it was because of injuries (Oden). Even Fultz was considered like an average #1 pick and his bust status is related to health problems.

At the time of the draft, Zion was seen closer to Lebron, Duncan, Shaq or, at worst, Davis than an average pick like Wall for example.

brutalitops · Post #40 » by **brutalitops** » Thu Sep 5, 2019 3:08 pm

Jalexjsmithj wrote:
brutalitops wrote:Sam Vercenie is a weenie

There is a guy who is an All star, led his team to the finals being overlooked by a guy who hasnt played against guys who get paid to play the game of Basketball yet.

There is a guy who averages 24/12 on 50/40/80 splits for the wolves who isnt mentioned.

Trash list, thanks for posting it on this forum because if this guy isa a journalist or anythign he doesnt deserve the clicks.

Those guys are too old for this list. KAT was on it last year and aged out.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Yet D Lo is 23 going onto 24 only 2 months before Kat, but is on the list?