Blaming "the others" is for *please use a better term to describe your displeasure*

[meekrab]

This is how I feel about people who consistently complain about refs

I'm not someone who complains about ref bias, just that they're consistently awful at their job and none of them ever get fired.

[Clyde Frazier]

Basketball is a team game. Great players need good players around them to consistently have success.

[2Mas]

I would agree with the OP that if your primary reason for saying KG is better than Dirk is his teammates were worse that is a bad argument.

The problem is that's essentially nobody's argument for why KG is better than Dirk. That is their explanation when Dirk supporters want to talk about KG's playoff record in Minnesota. I get tired of it too, but I also get tired of people saying KG can't win when his Boston days should have forever erased that nonsense.

KG has a strong argument to be ranked ahead of Dirk. This is generally how he is ranked. Not by everyone, but by a solid majority. I personally think Dirk has a strong argument to be ranked ahead of KG. I also understand I have a pro-Dirk bias I have to account for.

How dare you have a well thought, rational & agreeable response.

Blasphemy.

[Texas Chuck]

I would agree with the OP that if your primary reason for saying KG is better than Dirk is his teammates were worse that is a bad argument.

The problem is that's essentially nobody's argument for why KG is better than Dirk. That is their explanation when Dirk supporters want to talk about KG's playoff record in Minnesota. I get tired of it too, but I also get tired of people saying KG can't win when his Boston days should have forever erased that nonsense.

KG has a strong argument to be ranked ahead of Dirk. This is generally how he is ranked. Not by everyone, but by a solid majority. I personally think Dirk has a strong argument to be ranked ahead of KG. I also understand I have a pro-Dirk bias I have to account for.

How dare you have a well thought, rational & agreeable response.

Blasphemy.

LOL. Just catch me in a DWade thread. I can be childish and petty at times too.

[HurricaneDij25]

What he means is I don't like Lebron or KG and anyone who does I'm going to call childish names.

So you think being a mod makes you a mind-reader and gives you the right to throw words in another individual's mouth? Interesting.

Never had any issues with KG, even though he had his share of annoying moments in Boston. Great player who's deserved and earned all his accolades, but that still doesn't mean we should gloss over his playoff failures in Minnesota.

Your first post in this thread was a very good post, but this one cancels it out.

[triple_threat]

My two biggest pet peeves on the matter:

1) Most would rank Kevin Garnett ahead of Dirk Nowitzki on the all-time list, with the primary argument being that "KG simply didn't have the supporting cast in Minnesota", and this argument is shameful. For all purposes, there need to be something to be said for winning your one title with the team your entered the league with. One ought to google the one time Dirk and KG faced off in the playoffs, in 2002, and the series wasn't all that close.

2) If LeBron is given all the credit for for bring the Cavs as far as they got during his first tenure with them, he should also be given all the blame for them losing to teams with lesser records (Orlando in 2009 and Boston in 2010).

Blaming the others may get you to the second round of the playoffs, but if you can't make guys around you better and have to "blame the others", you don't deserve to win titles. Kids today are glossing over team concept, and it's sickening. The whole concept of "As long as we have Player A, everything else will take care of itself" will not bode well for the next generation of NBA players after LeBron retires. Plain and simple.

Kg has a much better overall resume. Dirk made the finals twice and won a ring, but so did KG - now don't prop up his Celtics teammates. You cant suck and blow you're not a Kardashian.

[HurricaneDij25]

a) Taking regular season records as an indicator of how good a team will be in the playoffs. This is often not the case. Injuries happen and good teams coast. Ignoring context leaves out a lot of relevant information.

The 2010 Cavs won 61 games to Boston's 50. That's a rather drastic difference. I love me some Gary Harris as he is from Indiana, but the "coasting" excuse is weak sauce.

[His Airness 23]

I’ll be so happy when LeBron is retired. I’ve never been more sick of hearing about 1 person.

[Lalouie]

eyeball test

[Stan]

It never ceases to amaze me how people who allegedly follow the NBA are unable to comprehend the most basic principle that basketball is a TEAM sport, with 9 other players on the court at the same time. Yes, a basketball player has the biggest impact out of all the other team sports, but people out here literally act like we're talking about golf or tennis.

So when Jordan was out there scoring 63 points and losing, I'm not supposed factor in his teammates or the team he was playing in the final result, I'm supposed blame Jordan for losing because apparently using context is for sissies? This is legitimately one of the worst threads I've ever read, and it's embarrassing that a good portion of fans have this same viewpoint

[bondom34]

Its almost like there are more nuanced ways to analyze individual impact than team results.

[HurricaneDij25]

It never ceases to amaze me how people who allegedly follow the NBA are unable to comprehend the most basic principle that basketball is a TEAM sport, with 9 other players on the court at the same time. Yes, a basketball player has the biggest impact out of all the other team sports, but people out here literally act like we're talking about golf or tennis.

So when Jordan was out there scoring 63 points and losing, I'm not supposed factor in his teammates or the team he was playing in the final result, I'm supposed blame Jordan for losing because apparently using context is for sissies? This is legitimately one of the worst threads I've ever read, and it's embarrassing that a good portion of fans have this same viewpoint

Clearly you didn't read the WHOLE post.

[MrPerfect1]

Dirk upped his production in the playoffs, KG did not. That's the difference to me. Dirks career averages in the playoffs were 25/10/2 on 58 TS% with most advanced stats higher than his regular season stats to KGs 18/11/3 on 53 TS% with most advanced stats lower than his regular season stats. I also put a lot more weight in Dirks ring when you consider he was clearly the man, as opposed to KG sharing the spot with Pierce, didn't have a team as good, and the fact that he basically beat a LeBron led superteam.

Only looking at Offensive stats is pretty flawed considering Garnett is an All Time Great Defensive Player who served as the Anchor of Dominant Defenses whereas Dirk was shaky at best defensively.

Garnett was definitely shaky at times on offense and was like Webber how much he would hot potato the ball in crunch time. However, Dirk basically mailing it in after the Title win is a Huge knock against him. Garnett clearly had the fire to go for multiple after winning 1 and almost got a 2nd. Dirk took a very different approach post title

[Southpaw]

I have KG over Dirk all-time because of his culture changing defense plus he's a better passer/playmaker and rebounder than Dirk. I wouldn't scoff at anyone who Dirk over KG tho because imo they're in the same tier as ATGs and it's just a matter of preference.

As for the OP, I've never seen anyone use that as the reason to have KG over Drik. I see it all the time tho as a reason why KG never won anything is Minny, which is reasonable.

As for Lebron, to me he gets his fair share of blame when his team losses and the reason why 2009 and 2010 are not talked about as much is because they're overshadowed by his 2011 collapse, which incidentally is when Dirk won his chip.

[Texas Chuck]

So you think being a mod makes you a mind-reader and gives you the right to throw words in another individual's mouth? Interesting.

No.

And there is no small irony here.

[The_Hater]

This is how I feel about people who consistently complain about refs

I'm not someone who complains about ref bias, just that they're consistently awful at their job and none of them ever get fired.

So they all should be fired? Or just most of them?

Do you think there are 100 great basketball refs running around out there that the NBA simply refuses to hire? Or perhaps basketball and especially NBA basketballs is just an extremely difficult sport to officiate and believe it or not, these are the best refs available?

[Pg81]

I rank KG ahead of Dirk because I think he was the better player. Better rebounder, much better passer, significantly better defender.

As for the supporting casts for these players, I’m confused on why that doesn’t matter? Of course it matters. It’s a team sport for God’s sake. The entire sissie comment just makes you look small minded.

My two biggest pet peeves on the matter:

1) Most would rank Kevin Garnett ahead of Dirk Nowitzki on the all-time list, with the primary argument being that "KG simply didn't have the supporting cast in Minnesota", and this argument is shameful. For all purposes, there need to be something to be said for winning your one title with the team your entered the league with. One ought to google the one time Dirk and KG faced off in the playoffs, in 2002, and the series wasn't all that close.

2) If LeBron is given all the credit for for bring the Cavs as far as they got during his first tenure with them, he should also be given all the blame for them losing to teams with lesser records (Orlando in 2009 and Boston in 2010).

Blaming the others may get you to the second round of the playoffs, but if you can't make guys around you better and have to "blame the others", you don't deserve to win titles. Kids today are glossing over team concept, and it's sickening. The whole concept of "As long as we have Player A, everything else will take care of itself" will not bode well for the next generation of NBA players after LeBron retires. Plain and simple.

Yeah, no.

[The_Hater]

I rank KG ahead of Dirk because I think he was the better player. Better rebounder, much better passer, significantly better defender.

As for the supporting casts for these players, I’m confused on why that doesn’t matter? Of course it matters. It’s a team sport for God’s sake. The entire sissie comment just makes you look small minded.

My two biggest pet peeves on the matter:

1) Most would rank Kevin Garnett ahead of Dirk Nowitzki on the all-time list, with the primary argument being that "KG simply didn't have the supporting cast in Minnesota", and this argument is shameful. For all purposes, there need to be something to be said for winning your one title with the team your entered the league with. One ought to google the one time Dirk and KG faced off in the playoffs, in 2002, and the series wasn't all that close.

2) If LeBron is given all the credit for for bring the Cavs as far as they got during his first tenure with them, he should also be given all the blame for them losing to teams with lesser records (Orlando in 2009 and Boston in 2010).

Blaming the others may get you to the second round of the playoffs, but if you can't make guys around you better and have to "blame the others", you don't deserve to win titles. Kids today are glossing over team concept, and it's sickening. The whole concept of "As long as we have Player A, everything else will take care of itself" will not bode well for the next generation of NBA players after LeBron retires. Plain and simple.

Yeah, no.

Ya, I really went out on a limb with those takes.....

Too funny.

[Nazrmohamed]

My two biggest pet peeves on the matter:

1) Most would rank Kevin Garnett ahead of Dirk Nowitzki on the all-time list, with the primary argument being that "KG simply didn't have the supporting cast in Minnesota", and this argument is shameful. For all purposes, there need to be something to be said for winning your one title with the team your entered the league with. One ought to google the one time Dirk and KG faced off in the playoffs, in 2002, and the series wasn't all that close.

2) If LeBron is given all the credit for for bring the Cavs as far as they got during his first tenure with them, he should also be given all the blame for them losing to teams with lesser records (Orlando in 2009 and Boston in 2010).

Blaming the others may get you to the second round of the playoffs, but if you can't make guys around you better and have to "blame the others", you don't deserve to win titles. Kids today are glossing over team concept, and it's sickening. The whole concept of "As long as we have Player A, everything else will take care of itself" will not bode well for the next generation of NBA players after LeBron retires. Plain and simple.

Yeah but your argument negates itself. You start by saying that a stars job is to make everyone better which is somewhat of a dated viewpoint used when win/losses WERE based more on the individual greatness of a single beat player. That whole take over games in the 4rth quarter mentality and making lesser role players better.

Then later in your conversation you tell us that younger fans gloss over team concept when THAT'S ALL younger fans talk about. They've now grown up watching superteams with 3 allstars playing together, where individual assist numbers have gone down as star usage has gone down dt overall team talent. There's less job specialization now, more positionless basketball and more guys who can do multiple roles.

So I was alittle confused by what point you're trying to make. If anything I think younger fans understand team concepts more than we do. If anything I get caught up asking "whose gonna take over in the forth quarter" or "why can't he just takeover and carry his team". All symptoms of a star dominated team concept more than a collaborative concept

[HurricaneDij25]

I rank KG ahead of Dirk because I think he was the better player. Better rebounder, much better passer, significantly better defender.

As for the supporting casts for these players, I’m confused on why that doesn’t matter? Of course it matters. It’s a team sport for God’s sake. The entire sissie comment just makes you look small minded.

u know what u just said applies to Pau right?
and even Draymond green.

Since I wasn’t comparing any of those players directly to Dirk, only KG, I’m not exactly sure what your point is? Or even if I agree with it.

Draymond is a better rebounder, a much better passer, and a significantly better defender than Dirk was. Using your faulty criteria, apparently Draymond is the better player.