Is there a reasonable argument that MJ was actually better at basketball than LeBron?

Camping Fan · Post #21 » by **Camping Fan** » Thu Sep 17, 2020 5:51 pm

Yes - Michael Jordan won 6 champions and would have won 8 straight he hadn't quit the NBA to go play baseball

LeBron is a great player though, but is not quite there on the same level as MJ

Freighttrain · Post #22 » by **Freighttrain** » Thu Sep 17, 2020 5:55 pm

-MetA4- wrote:Better Offensive Player: Jordan
Better Defensive Player: Jordan
More Clutch Player: Jordan
More Titles: Jordan

But LeBron gets more rebounds and assists playing in an era where both teams score 120 a game lmao.

I don't think Jordan was the better offensive player. He was the better scorer, but offence is also distributing, creating, controlling the pace, etc.. All of which I consider LeBron to be better at.

I can't wait for the **** of quotes I'm about to receive.

dhsilv2 · Post #23 » by **dhsilv2** » Thu Sep 17, 2020 5:56 pm

Camping Fan wrote:Yes - Michael Jordan won 6 champions and would have won 8 straight he hadn't quit the NBA to go play baseball

LeBron is a great player though, but is not quite there on the same level as MJ

I'd pretty much bet any amount of money the bulls don't win 8 straight.

JoeyLightYears · Post #24 » by **JoeyLightYears** » Thu Sep 17, 2020 5:57 pm

Sgt Major wrote:It's MJ and the field. You debate about 2nd, top 10, best at positions blah blah, but MJ is the undisputed GOAT.

He's obviously not undisputed since this thread (and about five more every day here) is disputing it. That you disagree with the premise doesn't change that.

Not2BeBothered · Post #25 » by **Not2BeBothered** » Thu Sep 17, 2020 6:02 pm

Yeah L3-6ron is 2 lucky shots away from being 1-8 in the finals

Post #26 » by **The Rebel** » Thu Sep 17, 2020 6:03 pm

dhsilv2 wrote:
CBS7 wrote:> NBA defenders are at their toughest/best right now
> Teams are scoring at a higher rate and efficiency than anytime in the past ~50 years

Pick one.

But it's both...

Nba players may be better but the rule changes have made it damn near impossible to guard anyone effectively today. Literally every player carries on 75% of their dribbles, 12 years ago 3 steps was a clear travel today 4 steps aren't a travel, you cannot touch anybody outside of the paint, it is a joke and a huge reason stats are going way up.

Post #27 » by **CBS7** » Thu Sep 17, 2020 6:04 pm

A lot of people seem to use the "the league is so much better now" argument against Jordan. But never take into account the benefits Jordan would get from playing in today's era.
Jordan would benefit greatly from today's spacing, today's defensive rules, lowered thresholds of flagrant fouls, increased ticky tack foul calls, lack of hand checking, etc.
There's also a pretty big difference between copy/pasting Jordan/the 90s Bulls to today's era and having a Jordan clone brought up in this era. Its a pretty pointless argument though, because there's no way that we'll ever be able to tell. What we do know though, is Jordan dominated the circumstances he was given, which is the most we could have asked for. This is also why I don't argue when someone puts Bill Russell over Jordan. You can't fault Russell for the era he was born in. He did the most he could possibly do with it.

Joao Saraiva · Post #28 » by **Joao Saraiva** » Thu Sep 17, 2020 6:11 pm

Yes MJ has a case. Peak and prime are comparable. Longevity edge goes LeBron's way.

Now if you're a guy who doesn't put too much into consideration when it comes to longevity... Jordan still has more hardware. More rings, MVPs, Finals MVPs... bigger domination team wise at least.

MJ was the better scorer, and if you value that a ton in your best player it raises his value. Also his lowest wasn't as low as LeBron in 11, so even if LBJ is super consistent you can say he's still 2nd to MJ.

Of course there are arguments for LeBron too, but you asked if an argument could be made for MJ. It can.

And for others over LeBron. The GOAT is not a locked discussion. A few names have an argument.

camby23 · Post #29 » by **camby23** » Thu Sep 17, 2020 6:18 pm

-MetA4- wrote:But LeBron gets more rebounds and assists playing in an era where both teams score 120 a game lmao.

1984-1989 - 108 ppg

1990-1993: 106 ppg

1994-1996: 101 ppg

1997-2003: 95 ppg

2004: 93 ppg

2005-2015: 99 ppg

2016: 103 ppg

2017-2018: 106 ppg

Dutchball97 · Post #30 » by **Dutchball97** » Thu Sep 17, 2020 6:20 pm

Thinking LeBron is a better player than MJ = reasonable

Thinking LeBron is unquestionably better than MJ in every way = utterly insane

Camping Fan · Post #31 » by **Camping Fan** » Thu Sep 17, 2020 6:21 pm

dhsilv2 wrote:
Camping Fan wrote:Yes - Michael Jordan won 6 champions and would have won 8 straight he hadn't quit the NBA to go play baseball

LeBron is a great player though, but is not quite there on the same level as MJ

I'd pretty much bet any amount of money the bulls don't win 8 straight.

Personally - I think Michael Jordan was that good - If any one could have done it - He would have been the one - but you would most likely win that bet

Patches Perry · Post #32 » by **Patches Perry** » Thu Sep 17, 2020 6:23 pm

I tend to hate Jordan propaganda but there is obviously an argument for Jordan over LeBron (and vice versa). They're both on the Rushmore of all-time greats.

Official · Post #33 » by **Official** » Thu Sep 17, 2020 6:26 pm

Lebron has definitely faced stiffer competition than Jordan. Nobody Jordan faced in the finals was better than the Warriors and arguably the Spurs. And I would say the wing players of the 90's are garbage compared to today.

Heej · Post #34 » by **Heej** » Thu Sep 17, 2020 6:33 pm

benson13 wrote:

Every team Jordan beat in the Finals was better than 2011 Mavericks. Like literally, there are six teams who would have been NBA champs right now if they had just existed in the 2010-2011 season.

Nice troll thread though.

Indubitably my dude. Great post totally unbiased and pure facts. You love to see it

Sharkboy242 · Post #35 » by **Sharkboy242** » Thu Sep 17, 2020 6:36 pm

Its really just a matter of what you regard as better: talent or resume.

MJs resume is (so far) much better than Lebrons, thus I give MJ the nod of GOAT. As far as impact on winning though I understand that Lebron is better.

Patches Perry · Post #36 » by **Patches Perry** » Thu Sep 17, 2020 6:37 pm

dhsilv2 wrote:
Camping Fan wrote:Yes - Michael Jordan won 6 champions and would have won 8 straight he hadn't quit the NBA to go play baseball

LeBron is a great player though, but is not quite there on the same level as MJ

I'd pretty much bet any amount of money the bulls don't win 8 straight.

In fact, I would argue that had he not retired, even if they continue to win in 1994 and 1995, that they would have been more content to stop sooner. 5 straight titles would be incredible and history in itself and something to part ways on. They had to pull teeth to stay together in 1998. The retirement actually worked out very well for their final ring count because it incentivized 6 (repeat 3peat was the rhetoric). Without that incentive for 6, they likely stop and settle before 6.

BarneyGumble · Post #37 » by **BarneyGumble** » Thu Sep 17, 2020 6:38 pm

I've been around long enough to watch both of their careers and in my opinion its Jordan. The best metaphor I have for why this is: MJ embraced male pattern baldness and turned it into a fashion trend that persists still while LeBron has tried to hide from it and cover it up with hair plugs, doo-rags, and probably spray cans too.

oaktownwarriors87 · Post #38 » by **oaktownwarriors87** » Thu Sep 17, 2020 6:38 pm

Mogspan wrote:Arguments for LeBron:

Highest box and non-box statistical peak in a much, much more internationally competitive and sophisticated era against superior athletes and teams who actually mathematically understand how to play basketball

Far superior versatility and longevity

"Arguments" for MJ:

Romanticized sociopathy

Scored a lot of points (on worse efficiency even adjusted for era) on impossibly stacked teams against Kurt Rambis and John Stockton with the greatest coach ever while sticking his tongue out and being "feared"

I have no doubt whatsoever that Kawhi could have three-peated twice in MJ's situation.

Jordan had 11 full seasons with the Bulls (1 injured, 1 retired and one partial)

Lead the league in PPG 10/11 seasons
Lead the league in VORP 9/11 seasons
Lead the league in BPM 9/11 seasons
Lead the league in WS48 9/11 seasons
Lead the league in OBMP 9/11 seasons
Lead the league in OWS 8/11 seasons
Lead the league in WS 8/11 seasons
Lead the league in PER 7/11 seasons
Won 6 Rings in 11 seasons

At the same age, LeBron did this over 14 seasons:

Lead the league in PPG 1/14 seasons
Lead the league in VORP 8/14 seasons
Lead the league in BPM 6/14 seasons
Lead the league in WS48 5/14 seasons
Lead the league in OBPM 5/14 seasons
Lead the league in OWS 4/14 seasons
Lead the league in WS 5/14 seasons
Lead the league in PER 6/14 seasons
Won 3-4 Rings in 14 seasons

Even with 3 extra full seasons he could catch Jordan.

Solid troll attempt, but everyone knows that Jordan dominated the league in a way that no player has done since. It's not an insult to be considered #2.

gmoney411 · Post #39 » by **gmoney411** » Thu Sep 17, 2020 6:42 pm

Is there an argument for Jordan being the better all around player and one man team? Probably not.

Is there an argument for Jordan being the better team player? Absolutely.

Leslie Forman · Post #40 » by **Leslie Forman** » Thu Sep 17, 2020 6:47 pm

You see how people thought Kawhi Leonard was god-tier up until one week ago? You see how great people think Jimmy Butler is?

Imagine a dude that made those two guys look like choking nobodies. A dude who you simply never thought was going to lose a playoff series, even though his best teammate was, frankly, a flaky, inefficient sub-20PPG scorer. Not Kyrie Irving. Not Dwyane Wade. Not Anthony Davis.

People were talking about Kawhi as possibly the best player on the planet just a game or two ago. And then he choked. Imagine if instead of choking, he dropped something like 40/7/7 and won.

That's MJ.