69 Years of Height Evolution in the NBA [4,379 players analyzed]

[Metallikid]

makes sense with the NBA becoming more positionless...much more about skill than height.

Did you read the part where it says players below 6'3" are also being phased out?

yes? that's exactly my point. 6-6 guys will be doing things that 6'2 guys were doing a decade ago.

But height is clearly playing an important role and it is precluding smaller guards from the League based on this.

[clyde21]

Did you read the part where it says players below 6'3" are also being phased out?

yes? that's exactly my point. 6-6 guys will be doing things that 6'2 guys were doing a decade ago.

But height is clearly playing an important role and it is precluding smaller guards from the League based on this.

yes, because the skills of wing sized players is better than ever...so now you don't have to necessarily rely on smaller guards to run offense or play make because you have 6-7 and 6-8 guys that can do that more and more...that, again, is the entire point.

[Metallikid]

yes? that's exactly my point. 6-6 guys will be doing things that 6'2 guys were doing a decade ago.

But height is clearly playing an important role and it is precluding smaller guards from the League based on this.

yes, because the skills of wing sized players is better than ever...so now you don't have to necessarily rely on smaller guards to run offense or play make because you have 6-7 and 6-8 guys that can do that more and more...that, again, is the entire point.

I don't see how skill supplanted height there. You seemed to jump from a premise to a conclusion with nothing in between.

[Optms]

Guards were more athletic back in the 00's as well. I've felt this way for a long time, since about 2012. Now we have data that shows they were also taller. Truth be told, we have a lot of short SG's running around today.

Its funny because the guy with elite athleticism and great size today that would fit the early 00's guard mold doesn't care enough to be great (Wiggins).

[dhsilv2]

BMI isn't accurate. It can flag a person as overweight if they have a lot of muscle. You could read that 38% as the more muscular players (Steven Adams, Zion, etc.) compared to slimmer guys (KD, Ingram, Curry).

Excess muscle is still over weight. Your heart really doesn't care if you're fat and muscular, it still has to put in excess work as you get heavier.

This is a trivial point without clearly defining 'excess.' If excess means "too much" then of course too much muscle is bad, as that's what "too much" means. But how much is "too much?" In general, being overweight is bad for the heart because of the reason you listed, however in the NBA players get considerable amounts of cardio in daily, which is good for your heart (why it's called cardio). This is distinct from someone who tracks as "overweight" from the BMI scale due to a sedentary lifestyle. Additionally, many players have naturally bigger frames, which has been demonstrated countless times to throw of BMI scaling, which assumes certain "ideal" body type/sizes and marginalizes others.

We're all aware that BMI isn't an exact number, it is after all a scale. Do NBA players REALLY have huge frames though? The vast majority of NBA players are spiders with freaking long limbs but fairly normal human torsos. Bottom line is guys who lifting weights and have high muscle mass are likely to fall into over weight in the BMI scale. It's a pretty good idea for anyone that muscular to drop muscle and lean out by their 50's if they want to live as long as possible.

[DCasey91]

feels like every position is trending to the same body type - long, skilled, athletic, 6'6" and can shoot threes. basically players that can do everything and arent a liability in any way. soon every player on the floor will fit this mold imo

Quote me if I’m wrong but didn’t some well renowned person in NBA history alluded to this?
Basically 5x 6”6” ultra skillful types that can do it all sort of thing.

Clippers are pretty deep in the regard. Also Curry isn’t a small PG. just for size there’s players that are big guards/Wings/PF’s playing the facilitating role (James/Doncic/Giannis/Harden etc.)

I guess having a small without great facilitating/scoring/shooting chops on the field leaves you open big time if he’s not a great defender. Paul/Lowry are becoming the exception to the rule because of how well rounded they are. Vanvleet fits their mould

It makes sense in the end the versatility/mobility is just too good. Basically the PF spot is in jeopardy as it’s compensated for an extra wing (2 or 3 or sometimes 4 in GSW’s case legit had 4 big wings).

[picko]

The deeper the talent pool has gotten - particularly with the influx of international stars - the more likely we are to see guys with skill-sets that don't fit in with what you'd expect from someone with that physical profile.

We now have a heap of 'Magic Johnson' type point guards who are built like small / power forwards and yet have the handles / passing skills of someone six inches shorter. We have centres who can shoot the three or distribute at an incredibly high level. Lumbering bigs with little to offer than their size have been largely phased out.

It's been a fascinating evolution that began decades ago but has really been supercharged over the past decade. It absolutely makes sense that really small point guards and lumbering bigs are being phased out. And the future might be a league full of guys in the 6'3 to 6'9 range with some highly skilled outliers (such as Embiid and Jokic).

[draftnightsuit]

I wonder if one of the factors is different ways of measuring- shoes vs. no shoes

Probably not. The league started measuring barefoot in 2019 which dropped the height.

Probably 90% of listed heights in NBA history are an inch too tall due to measuring in shoes.

[draftnightsuit]

”NBA centers have the highest PER in the NBA for 7 seasons in a row. This has never happened over the past 60 years. It’s also interesting that the point guards average the highest PER ever.

Players over 7-feet tall are averaging the highest PER in the history of the NBA (17,46)”

This makes sense. The days of the worthless 7 foot stiff are over: Greg Ostertag, Jon Koncak, Bill Wennington, Todd Maccullough, etc...

All the 7 footers today are skilled and athletic.

[Roscoe Sheed]

I wonder if one of the factors is different ways of measuring- shoes vs. no shoes

Probably not. The league started measuring barefoot in 2019 which dropped the height.

Probably 90% of listed heights in NBA history are an inch too tall due to measuring in shoes.

my point was that the article seemed to indicate that the average height is decreasing, but perhaps guys in the past were on average taller partly because they were wearing shoes when measured.

[zike_42]

Going off nba.com, there are no players in the league now that are the exact league average of 6'6, 216lbs. These are the closest:

6'6, 217lbs - Rondae Hollis-Jefferson
6'6, 215lbs - Andre Iguodala, Danny Green, James Ennis, Kenyon Martin Jr, Troy Brown Jr

[70sFan]

We now have a heap of 'Magic Johnson' type point guards who are built like small / power forwards and yet have the handles / passing skills of someone six inches shorter.

Do we? Outside of LeBron, who else is as big as Magic Johnson with point guard skills? I mean, you can add Simmons to that if you have to and the next one is probably Doncic who is considerably smaller.

Lumbering bigs with little to offer than their size have been largely phased out.

We still have a lot of them now - DeAndre Jordan, Robin Lopez, Mason Plumlee, Andre Drummond, Jusuf Nurkic, Enes Kanter, Jonas Valanciunas, Jakob Poeltl, Steven Adams... All of them are still relevant in the league and non of them can shoot well or are mobile. Sure, there is a trend but "lumbering bigs with little to offer other than their size" were never common in the league, it's the NBA after all.

[picko]

Do we? Outside of LeBron, who else is as big as Magic Johnson with point guard skills? I mean, you can add Simmons to that if you have to and the next one is probably Doncic who is considerably smaller.

'Heap' is perhaps hyperbole but Magic was arguably the greatest 'unicorn' in league history and the league currently has three guys who are of similar size and skill-set.

Then there is this - average height / weight of the top 10 in assists per game:

1989-90: 186.0 cm / 80.5 kg
2020-21: 195.9 cm / 99.0 kg

Even if exclude the biggest / smallest players from each top 10 list to account for outliers (Jokic / CP3 in 2020-21 and Magic / Bogues in 1989-90) you end up with:

1989-90: 186.8 cm / 80.9 kg
2020-21: 195.6 cm / 97.9 kg

So there has clearly been a shift towards bigger playmakers - even if only a few are physically similar to Magic.

We still have a lot of them now - DeAndre Jordan, Robin Lopez, Mason Plumlee, Andre Drummond, Jusuf Nurkic, Enes Kanter, Jonas Valanciunas, Jakob Poeltl, Steven Adams... All of them are still relevant in the league and non of them can shoot well or are mobile. Sure, there is a trend but "lumbering bigs with little to offer other than their size" were never common in the league, it's the NBA after all.

Of players 6'11 and taller:

In the 1990s, there were 10 players with a BPM >= 2 and 18 players with a BPM >= 0 (min 20 MPG and 5,000 total minutes). In the 2010s, there were 17 players with a BPM >= 2 and 38 players with a BPM >= 0.

Furthermore, in the 1990s there were 12 players with a BPM <= -2 compared with just 2 in the 2010s.

So yes 'lumbering bigs with little to offer other than their size' were common and yes they have largely been phased out. Lumbering bigs with skills though still have a place in the modern NBA.

[70sFan]

'Heap' is perhaps hyperbole but Magic was arguably the greatest 'unicorn' in league history and the league currently has three guys who are of similar size and skill-set.

It's not "perhaps" a hyperbole - we have total of 2 PGs as big as Magic - one of them isn't close to Johnson in terms of skill-set (SImmons) and the other one isn't even from this era (LeBron).

I could use Penny Hardaway as an example of 1990s having "heap" of Magics, but it's just wrong.

Then there is this - average height / weight of the top 10 in assists per game:

1989-90: 186.0 cm / 80.5 kg
2020-21: 195.9 cm / 99.0 kg

Even if exclude the biggest / smallest players from each top 10 list to account for outliers (Jokic / CP3 in 2020-21 and Magic / Bogues in 1989-90) you end up with:

1989-90: 186.8 cm / 80.9 kg
2020-21: 195.6 cm / 97.9 kg

So there has clearly been a shift towards bigger playmakers - even if only a few are physically similar to Magic.

I agree that PGs are getting taller, but that wasn't your point. There is massive difference between PGs being 2-3 inches bigger on average and them being as big as Magic. If you said that "PGs are getting taller" then I wouldn't argue against that.

Of players 6'11 and taller:

In the 1990s, there were 10 players with a BPM >= 2 and 18 players with a BPM >= 0 (min 20 MPG and 5,000 total minutes). In the 2010s, there were 17 players with a BPM >= 2 and 38 players with a BPM >= 0.

Furthermore, in the 1990s there were 12 players with a BPM <= -2 compared with just 2 in the 2010s.

Where did you get your stats? I just checked stasthead for 2010s players with 20 mpg, 5000 minutes and 2+ BPM and I found 15, not 17 players in 2011-21 period (11 in 1991-01 period in comparison). When I use the same criteria but with only 0+ BPM, I get 20 players in 2011-21 period, not 38.

So yes 'lumbering bigs with little to offer other than their size' were common and yes they have largely been phased out. Lumbering bigs with skills though still have a place in the modern NBA.

What skill does Hassan Whiteside have? Or DeAndre Jordan? Or Jakob Poeltl? Are Steven Adams or Andre Drummond modern players with modern skillset? None of them is particulary talented (and I love Adams).

[matt6715]

Primary Ball handler
Wings
Bigs

This (to me) is pretty much the new normal on positions with some nuance for guys who shoot 3's vs. don't shoot 3's

[dhsilv2]

What skill does Hassan Whiteside have? Or DeAndre Jordan? Or Jakob Poeltl? Are Steven Adams or Andre Drummond modern players with modern skillset? None of them is particulary talented (and I love Adams).

I feel I'm walking into a mine field here but for the fun of it. Where do you see those 3 guys vs Luc Longley and Greg Ostertag, two centers who faced eachother twice in the finals in the 90's and were flat out not good players.

I should add to this.

Whiteside lead the league in rebounding and is a pretty mobile and athletic dude. Jordan at his peak could jump out of the gym for his side, this year, frankly I'd agree he is barely nba quality. And I just haven't watched the spurs much but Poeltl is having some crazy defensive impact metrics. Longley and Ostertag? They have none of that. They were bad then and they were starters on title contenders for multiple seasons, I'm not even bringing up dudes who were on the bench just to hack shaq a few times a game.

[Showtime 80]

What skill does Hassan Whiteside have? Or DeAndre Jordan? Or Jakob Poeltl? Are Steven Adams or Andre Drummond modern players with modern skillset? None of them is particulary talented (and I love Adams).

I feel I'm walking into a mine field here but for the fun of it. Where do you see those 3 guys vs Luc Longley and Greg Ostertag, two centers who faced eachother twice in the finals in the 90's and were flat out not good players.

I should add to this.

Whiteside lead the league in rebounding and is a pretty mobile and athletic dude. Jordan at his peak could jump out of the gym for his side, this year, frankly I'd agree he is barely nba quality. And I just haven't watched the spurs much but Poeltl is having some crazy defensive impact metrics. Longley and Ostertag? They have none of that. They were bad then and they were starters on title contenders for multiple seasons, I'm not even bringing up dudes who were on the bench just to hack shaq a few times a game.

Talk about not knowing a damn thing about the 90's, all of those modern guys would be just 6 fouls on prime Shaq as well! People fall too much in love with athleticism, the physicality the league allowed at that time negated a lot of that just ask the 97 and 98 Lakers with some of the most athletic rosters of all team being trounced by the over the hill Jazz. Greg Ostertag and Greg Foster for that matter drove Shaq nuts with how physical and unafraid they were.

The 90's Bulls and Jazz are typical of title winners after the salaries exploded in the early 90's, they have 2/3 all-star caliber players surrounded with serviceable role guys. You have to go back to the 80's Sixers, Pistons, Lakers and Celtics to find teams with all-star quality players at every position and even coming off the bench which were impossible to build afterwards even in the primadonna soft AAU banana boat buddy buddy colluding era we have now.

Adding to that was the fact that the 90's was the Golden Age for centers with guys like Shaq, Olajuwon, Ewing, Robinson, Mutombo, Mourning etc... all on contending teams so if you didn't have any of those guys you better have a big physical brute that was not afraid to tangle in the paint with those monsters for 40+ minutes which is exactly what the Bulls and Jazz had.

And don't give the "modern skilled center" crap, contending/title teams in the past 10 years have trotted out these luminaries as their starting centers at one time or another:

Joel Anthony
Timofey Mozgov
Andrew Bogut
Tristan Thompson
Festus Ezeli
Zaza Pachulia

Looks like the "7 foot stiffs" are alive and well

[Mazter]

What skill does Hassan Whiteside have? Or DeAndre Jordan? Or Jakob Poeltl? Are Steven Adams or Andre Drummond modern players with modern skillset? None of them is particulary talented (and I love Adams).

Drummond/Deandre/Whiteside combine for 7 rebound titles, 1 block title, 3 All Defensive, 4 All NBA, and 3 All Star games. So asking what skill they have...

I feel I'm walking into a mine field here but for the fun of it. Where do you see those 3 guys vs Luc Longley and Greg Ostertag, two centers who faced each other twice in the finals in the 90's and were flat out not good players.

I should add to this.

Whiteside lead the league in rebounding and is a pretty mobile and athletic dude. Jordan at his peak could jump out of the gym for his side, this year, frankly I'd agree he is barely nba quality. And I just haven't watched the spurs much but Poeltl is having some crazy defensive impact metrics. Longley and Ostertag? They have none of that. They were bad then and they were starters on title contenders for multiple seasons, I'm not even bringing up dudes who were on the bench just to hack shaq a few times a game.

I think at this point they are just on a roster based on their reputation somewhere halfway the past decade. I think it shows how much the game has changed even just in the past 5, let alone 10, seasons. These guys peaked at a combined 78.8M a year, and now after they contracts expirebarely combine for 13M, despite being in their early 30, late 20's.

[HeatIn5]

I stopped at 69

[dhsilv2]

What skill does Hassan Whiteside have? Or DeAndre Jordan? Or Jakob Poeltl? Are Steven Adams or Andre Drummond modern players with modern skillset? None of them is particulary talented (and I love Adams).

I feel I'm walking into a mine field here but for the fun of it. Where do you see those 3 guys vs Luc Longley and Greg Ostertag, two centers who faced eachother twice in the finals in the 90's and were flat out not good players.

I should add to this.

Whiteside lead the league in rebounding and is a pretty mobile and athletic dude. Jordan at his peak could jump out of the gym for his side, this year, frankly I'd agree he is barely nba quality. And I just haven't watched the spurs much but Poeltl is having some crazy defensive impact metrics. Longley and Ostertag? They have none of that. They were bad then and they were starters on title contenders for multiple seasons, I'm not even bringing up dudes who were on the bench just to hack shaq a few times a game.

Talk about not knowing a damn thing about the 90's, all of those modern guys would be just 6 fouls on prime Shaq as well! People fall too much in love with athleticism, the physicality the league allowed at that time negated a lot of that just ask the 97 and 98 Lakers with some of the most athletic rosters of all team being trounced by the over the hill Jazz. Greg Ostertag and Greg Foster for that matter drove Shaq nuts with how physical and unafraid they were.

The 90's Bulls and Jazz are typical of title winners after the salaries exploded in the early 90's, they have 2/3 all-star caliber players surrounded with serviceable role guys. You have to go back to the 80's Sixers, Pistons, Lakers and Celtics to find teams with all-star quality players at every position and even coming off the bench which were impossible to build afterwards even in the primadonna soft AAU banana boat buddy buddy colluding era we have now.

Adding to that was the fact that the 90's was the Golden Age for centers with guys like Shaq, Olajuwon, Ewing, Robinson, Mutombo, Mourning etc... all on contending teams so if you didn't have any of those guys you better have a big physical brute that was not afraid to tangle in the paint with those monsters for 40+ minutes which is exactly what the Bulls and Jazz had.

And don't give the "modern skilled center" crap, contending/title teams in the past 10 years have trotted out these luminaries as their starting centers at one time or another:

Joel Anthony
Timofey Mozgov
Andrew Bogut
Tristan Thompson
Festus Ezeli
Zaza Pachulia

Looks like the "7 foot stiffs" are alive and well

I feel like you made my case...