NBA protocols/Covid/Vaccine - Discussion thread

[Catchall]

Read on Twitter

So the "gotcha" here is supposed to be that people indoors unmasked in close quarters are catching Covid? How many of them have been hospitalized?

This is an example of the current vaccines failing to prevent infection and spread of the virus.

The premise that everyone should get vaccinated in order to prevent further spread of the virus is a flawed premise.

If you want to argue that people should get the vaccine to protect themselves personally, then that is a different argument. However, that is a personal decision. There is less of an argument that my decision whether or not to get vaccinated affects your health.

You can still expect players and team personnel to miss games this year due to covid, whether they're vaccinated or not.

[Questionquest]

What i find funny about this whole situation is whose life are you saving by arguing with random strangers on a basketball message board? No one on either side is going to change their mind even if you post 1000 links and statistics to prove your point. Both sides think the other one is misinformation

[Catchall]

Below are the latest numbers from England regarding outcomes of patients hospitalized with the Delta variant. According to Public Health England's COVID-19 variant report, between February 1, 2021 and September 12, 2021, 52% of delta cases, 47% of emergency care visits, and 70% of delta deaths had at least one of dose of the vaccine.

Of the 2,542 deaths recorded in the sample, 1,779 (70%) had received at least their first dose of the vaccine. Whereas, 722 (30%) were unvaccinated.

Of course, there is very likely a propensity of individuals with advanced age and co-morbidities to take the vaccine relative to younger, healthier cohorts. So it is expected that this group would experience more deaths due to their being more vulnerable to the disease at the outset.

As of this week, as many as 89% of England's population are reported to be vaccinated. If we choose a median date during the term of this study and assume that roughly 60% of the population was vaccinated, then vaccinated individuals do index lower for emergency care visit (Index of 78), but index higher to ultimately succumb to the disease (Index of 117).

I have to concede that this data suggests vaccination among individuals under the age of 50 will reduce the likelihood that they will need to be admitted to an emergency room. Without knowing the actual percentage of people under the age of 50 from the population at large who were vaccinated during the term of this study, it is difficult to gauge just how big the impact is. However, there is enough data here to suggest that vaccination within the population as a whole will reduce the burden on hospitals to some degree.

Whether this factor is enough for governments or businesses to seek to compel vaccination is a matter for debate. I regard vaccination as a matter of individual assessment and judgement.

[zimpy27]

Read on Twitter

So the "gotcha" here is supposed to be that people indoors unmasked in close quarters are catching Covid? How many of them have been hospitalized?

This is an example of the current vaccines failing to prevent infection and spread of the virus.

The premise that everyone should get vaccinated in order to prevent further spread of the virus is a flawed premise.

If you want to argue that people should get the vaccine to protect themselves personally, then that is a different argument. However, that is a personal decision. There is less of an argument that my decision whether or not to get vaccinated affects your health.

You can still expect players and team personnel to miss games this year due to covid, whether they're vaccinated or not.

The problem is with the idea of it being a personal decision is that hospitals don't pick and choose to treat vaccinated or unvaccinated people. If they get a surge of infections from the unvaccinated do you think they should just not treat them in favour of vaccinated folks for personal decisions?

The whole point of these mandates is to take the pressure off the health system and to protect the already sick.

[Catchall]

So the "gotcha" here is supposed to be that people indoors unmasked in close quarters are catching Covid? How many of them have been hospitalized?

This is an example of the current vaccines failing to prevent infection and spread of the virus.

The premise that everyone should get vaccinated in order to prevent further spread of the virus is a flawed premise.

If you want to argue that people should get the vaccine to protect themselves personally, then that is a different argument. However, that is a personal decision. There is less of an argument that my decision whether or not to get vaccinated affects your health.

You can still expect players and team personnel to miss games this year due to covid, whether they're vaccinated or not.

The problem is with the idea of it being a personal decision is that hospitals don't pick and choose to treat vaccinated or unvaccinated people. If they get a surge of infections from the unvaccinated do you think they should just not treat them in favour of vaccinated folks for personal decisions?

The whole point of these mandates is to take the pressure off the health system and to protect the already sick.

Yes. If you look at the population in the aggregate, then more people getting vaccinated will result in fewer people needing emergency care and placing a burden on the hospitals (at least with this Delta variant).

However, the question still comes down to the individual level -- who is it that should get vaccinated? People who are young and healthy are very unlikely to end up in an emergency room with covid. I'm not saying it never happens, but it's rare. NBA athletes like Andrew Wiggins and Bradley Beal are very unlikely to need emergency care from covid.

Another aspect to this is that many hospitals have lost a significant percentage of their staff during the past year, and this further reduces hospital capacity. Even more nurses are being forced out of their jobs for choosing not to get vaccinated themselves, and this just compounds the problem. It's a poor policy decision.

[zimpy27]

This is an example of the current vaccines failing to prevent infection and spread of the virus.

The premise that everyone should get vaccinated in order to prevent further spread of the virus is a flawed premise.

If you want to argue that people should get the vaccine to protect themselves personally, then that is a different argument. However, that is a personal decision. There is less of an argument that my decision whether or not to get vaccinated affects your health.

You can still expect players and team personnel to miss games this year due to covid, whether they're vaccinated or not.

The problem is with the idea of it being a personal decision is that hospitals don't pick and choose to treat vaccinated or unvaccinated people. If they get a surge of infections from the unvaccinated do you think they should just not treat them in favour of vaccinated folks for personal decisions?

The whole point of these mandates is to take the pressure off the health system and to protect the already sick.

Yes. If you look at the population in the aggregate, then more people getting vaccinated will result in fewer people needing emergency care and placing a burden on the hospitals (at least with this Delta variant).

However, the question still comes down to the individual level -- who is it that should get vaccinated?' People who are young and healthy are very unlikely to end up in an emergency room with covid. I'm not saying it never happens, but it's rare. NBA athletes like Andrew Wiggins and Bradley Beal are very unlikely to need emergency care from covid.

Another aspect to this is that many hospitals have lost a significant percentage of their staff during the past year, and this further reduces hospital capacity. Even more nurses are being forced out of their jobs for choosing not to get vaccinated themselves, and this just compounds the problem. It's a poor policy decision.

Young people are less likely to die but their risk of getting a long-term issue that significantly impacts their lives negatively is actually scarily high. That long-term economic burden could be huge and suffocating longterm. You're talking young people that disrupt their education or young careers and don't add to GDP nearly as much over their lifetime but also the social security system burden and health system burden to look after them longterm.

There are a lot of examples of wealthy celebrities or athletes getting long-term disease that derails their careers due to a triggering acute infection or acute stressor events. I would not be certain that they all come out unscathed from this.

Yes, mandates are ham-fisted but it's a population health crisis and that's why they get pulled out. I think if there was more voluntary take up of the vaccine then they probably aren't mandates right now. The core of the issue seems to be an irrational fear of vaccines.

[Catchall]

The problem is with the idea of it being a personal decision is that hospitals don't pick and choose to treat vaccinated or unvaccinated people. If they get a surge of infections from the unvaccinated do you think they should just not treat them in favour of vaccinated folks for personal decisions?

The whole point of these mandates is to take the pressure off the health system and to protect the already sick.

Yes. If you look at the population in the aggregate, then more people getting vaccinated will result in fewer people needing emergency care and placing a burden on the hospitals (at least with this Delta variant).

However, the question still comes down to the individual level -- who is it that should get vaccinated?' People who are young and healthy are very unlikely to end up in an emergency room with covid. I'm not saying it never happens, but it's rare. NBA athletes like Andrew Wiggins and Bradley Beal are very unlikely to need emergency care from covid.

Another aspect to this is that many hospitals have lost a significant percentage of their staff during the past year, and this further reduces hospital capacity. Even more nurses are being forced out of their jobs for choosing not to get vaccinated themselves, and this just compounds the problem. It's a poor policy decision.

Young people are less likely to die but their risk of getting a long-term issue that significantly impacts their lives negatively is actually scarily high. That long-term economic burden could be huge and suffocating longterm. You're talking young people that disrupt their education or young careers and don't add to GDP nearly as much over their lifetime but also the social security system burden and health system burden to look after them longterm.

We don't have long-term data at this point because the pandemic has only hit the U.S. for 18 months. There are also potential long-term risks associated with the vaccines, and these have been underreported. So both scenarios need to be weighed.

The individual needs to be informed about the real risks that covid poses, and the vaccines as well. Most news media simply push anecdotal evidence with limited data and context. They're not doing a good job of informing the public. There is an entire segment of the medical community that is being pressured and marginalized by institutions that have a vested interested in pushing the vaccines.

[zimpy27]

Yes. If you look at the population in the aggregate, then more people getting vaccinated will result in fewer people needing emergency care and placing a burden on the hospitals (at least with this Delta variant).

However, the question still comes down to the individual level -- who is it that should get vaccinated?' People who are young and healthy are very unlikely to end up in an emergency room with covid. I'm not saying it never happens, but it's rare. NBA athletes like Andrew Wiggins and Bradley Beal are very unlikely to need emergency care from covid.

Another aspect to this is that many hospitals have lost a significant percentage of their staff during the past year, and this further reduces hospital capacity. Even more nurses are being forced out of their jobs for choosing not to get vaccinated themselves, and this just compounds the problem. It's a poor policy decision.

Young people are less likely to die but their risk of getting a long-term issue that significantly impacts their lives negatively is actually scarily high. That long-term economic burden could be huge and suffocating longterm. You're talking young people that disrupt their education or young careers and don't add to GDP nearly as much over their lifetime but also the social security system burden and health system burden to look after them longterm.

We don't have long-term data at this point because the pandemic has only hit the U.S. for 18 months. There are also potential long-term risks associated with the vaccines, and these have been underreported. So both scenarios need to be weighed.

The individual needs to be informed about the real risks that covid poses, and the vaccines as well. Most news media simply push anecdotal evidence with limited data and context. They're not doing a good job of informing the public. There is an entire segment of the medical community that is being pressured and marginalized by institutions that have a vested interested in pushing the vaccines.

Yeah the media have had a massive and insidious impact on people lives, I think it's more obvious with this pandemic but it's always there. I think most of us can agree there. Problem is that they are they are a product of being in a capitalist country. I don't really know how you fix that issue, whether the state need emergency powers over them and whether that type of power is corruptable. Different issue though and very difficult to solve.

Long-term risks for these specific vaccines haven't been observed but the mechanism have been explored in other vaccines. By now though, the weighting is strongly in favour of vaccine over virus when it comes to long-term effects.

I do wonder what the Doctors of these NBA players are saying to them.

[Cartuse]

What i find funny about this whole situation is whose life are you saving by arguing with random strangers on a basketball message board? No one on either side is going to change their mind even if you post 1000 links and statistics to prove your point. Both sides think the other one is misinformation

At least it serves as a reminder that similar people with similar interests can have different opinions on many things. The bigger picture is not covid, but how to deal with people who have an opinion different than mine. Even though the majority of people are not polarized and fall somewhere in the middle, there are 2 distinct lines of though regarding this issue

One side thinks that my opinion is my business and yours is yours, and that inaction is a birthright.

The other side thinks my opinion is our opinion, and our opinion is what the experts, salesmen and beaureaucracies with the widest and cleanest popularity indicate it should be.

There's truth on both sides. it all depends on how you choose to see the world.

The real issue here, at least in my opinion, is that we're in a case in which "our opinion" assures itself that the only way forward is by becoming absolute. It should be worrying and quite telling that the fuel for such reassurance came from unprecedented levels of fearmongering that years from now I imagine will be studied upon as absolute crimes against humanity.

[bwgood77]

Good on the vast majority of players who are good teammates not only to their own teammates but to society at large for realizing that doing their part to help slow/stop the spread helps the more vulnerable members of society and can help to lessen the massive and unnecessary strain currently put on our medical system by those refusing to get vaccinated.

Be a good teammate. Get vaccinated.

What are your thoughts on those who have natural immunity like Issac?

https://www.washingtonpost.com/outlook/2021/09/15/natural-immunity-vaccine-mandate/

This affirmed a June Cleveland Clinic study of health-care workers (who are often exposed to the virus), in which none who had previously tested positive for the coronavirus got reinfected. The study authors concluded that “individuals who have had SARS-CoV-2 infection are unlikely to benefit from covid-19 vaccination.”

Even if you have had it, it's better to get the vaccination to help against new and future iterations.

https://www.nbcnews.com/health/health-news/hybrid-immunity-people-covid-still-get-vaccinated-rcna1974

https://www.healthline.com/health-news/people-whove-had-covid-19-should-still-get-vaccinated-heres-why

https://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/volumes/70/wr/mm7032e1.htm?s_cid=mm7032e1_w

From the CDC last link..

This study found that among Kentucky residents who were previously infected with SARS-CoV-2 in 2020, those who were unvaccinated against COVID-19 had significantly higher likelihood of reinfection during May and June 2021. This finding supports the CDC recommendation that all eligible persons be offered COVID-19 vaccination, regardless of previous SARS-CoV-2 infection status.

[bwgood77]

Good on the vast majority of players who are good teammates not only to their own teammates but to society at large for realizing that doing their part to help slow/stop the spread helps the more vulnerable members of society and can help to lessen the massive and unnecessary strain currently put on our medical system by those refusing to get vaccinated.

Be a good teammate. Get vaccinated.

What is your thoughts on those who have natural immunity like Issac?

https://www.washingtonpost.com/outlook/2021/09/15/natural-immunity-vaccine-mandate/

This affirmed a June Cleveland Clinic study of health-care workers (who are often exposed to the virus), in which none who had previously tested positive for the coronavirus got reinfected. The study authors concluded that “individuals who have had SARS-CoV-2 infection are unlikely to benefit from covid-19 vaccination.”

I think everyone should get the vaccine, but I agree based on the research and all the studies like the one you quoted, that if you've already been infected within the last year, you probably don't need to get the vaccine and should have a good case as an exception to the mandates.

However, the unfortunate reality is that many people will take that as "Oh, then I shouldn't get vaccinated, when I actually get it I"ll get better immunity than the vaccine" when the issue isn't them, but the other people they could infect and the general transmission of the virus. As long as the priority is to get vaccinated if you've never been infected, I stand by anyone who doesn't want to get vaccinated due to the fact that they've already had Covid and have great protection against future infections.

I think it's good to get it regardless, and it will make you and others safer, but I do hope those that don't get the vaccine do get infected so they develop antibodies and don't put others at risk. At least that will help. If they happen to get a serious case, hopefully it would encourage others around them who may not be vaccinated to then get vaccinated which would obviously not only help them but make others safer as well.

[bwgood77]

From a practical level, I'm curious to know what happens when guys like Beal, Wiggins, Kyrie, etc. start missing large amounts of games. Do they get fined? Is there a loss of salary? It's one thing if a bench warmer is doing this, but how do you get past it if one of your best players who is occupying a huge chunk of your salary cap is missing tons of games while healthy?

There should obviously be a loss of salary if you are missing games when it is preventable. Teams are paying you to help their team win. If you are going to not do so for whatever reason outside of injury which happens while trying to win or prepare to win, they should be fined (unless the team feels they should get rest).

[rzzzzz]

1. Just about everybody got their Polio vaccines back when without too much grumbling. School kids, military and travelers have been regularly vaccinated for 70 years, damn near eliminating a lot of ugly bugs.

2. Now we got the ERs and ICUs of our hospitals so jammed up with covid that other folks are pretty hard pressed to get treatment. Not a good time to have an accident or a coronary. “Freedom’s just another word for nothing left to lose.”

[bwgood77]

Read on Twitter

So the "gotcha" here is supposed to be that people indoors unmasked in close quarters are catching Covid? How many of them have been hospitalized?

This is an example of the current vaccines failing to prevent infection and spread of the virus.

The premise that everyone should get vaccinated in order to prevent further spread of the virus is a flawed premise.

If you want to argue that people should get the vaccine to protect themselves personally, then that is a different argument. However, that is a personal decision. There is less of an argument that my decision whether or not to get vaccinated affects your health.

You can still expect players and team personnel to miss games this year due to covid, whether they're vaccinated or not.

Something like 70% of people have been vaccinated and something like 95% of people in the hospital are not vaccinated. I mean nothing is 100% effective but obviously if you just can take a few minutes to look at various sources it's clear that getting vaccinated is far better than not doing so.

[bwgood77]

Read on Twitter

So the "gotcha" here is supposed to be that people indoors unmasked in close quarters are catching Covid? How many of them have been hospitalized?

This is an example of the current vaccines failing to prevent infection and spread of the virus.

The premise that everyone should get vaccinated in order to prevent further spread of the virus is a flawed premise.

If you want to argue that people should get the vaccine to protect themselves personally, then that is a different argument. However, that is a personal decision. There is less of an argument that my decision whether or not to get vaccinated affects your health.

You can still expect players and team personnel to miss games this year due to covid, whether they're vaccinated or not.

Is there another source about this "Harvard news"? It's not mentioned anywhere that I see outside of this guy from twitter. Where is the info that this guy gets vaccination rates from?

[Optms]

From a practical level, I'm curious to know what happens when guys like Beal, Wiggins, Kyrie, etc. start missing large amounts of games. Do they get fined? Is there a loss of salary? It's one thing if a bench warmer is doing this, but how do you get past it if one of your best players who is occupying a huge chunk of your salary cap is missing tons of games while healthy?

They're going to get paid because the League nor the teams are the ones pushing this vaccine. If they were, and the players still refused, then it would constitute fines. But this is all at the local and at government level.

Secondly, I believe the NBA will never promote it because they know a solid chunk of their demographic of viewers are against the vaccine. Like a lot of Americans. It would be a stupid business decision to do so. It was one thing to test players, preach social distancing, etc. Its another when you are asking someone to put something into their bodies or else. The players won't cave and several fans won't either. They will turn away. This a line they aren't willing to cross.

[Curmudgeon]

Oh, I think more fans will be turned off by the refusal of players to get vaccinated, especially when their favorite team starts to lose games because players are stuck in covid protocol.

Plus the majority of NBA fans are on the coasts, not the flyover states where resistance to the vaccine is greatest.

[Statlanta]

Looks like 3 teams are truly affected, GS, BKN and NY.
Since it doesn't hurt visiting players we as fans will see it has little bearing on the games themselves.

With the athletes basically being at peak physical health with dieticians and trainers/doctors on hand compared to the population I think it's right for the players to make the individual choice of getting vaccinated or not, and for their team's to make the choices based on those decisions.

[bwgood77]

From a practical level, I'm curious to know what happens when guys like Beal, Wiggins, Kyrie, etc. start missing large amounts of games. Do they get fined? Is there a loss of salary? It's one thing if a bench warmer is doing this, but how do you get past it if one of your best players who is occupying a huge chunk of your salary cap is missing tons of games while healthy?

They're going to get paid because the League nor the teams are the ones pushing this vaccine. If they were, and the players still refused, then it would constitute fines. But this is all at the local and at government level.

Secondly, I believe the NBA will never promote it because they know a solid chunk of their demographic of viewers are against the vaccine. Like a lot of Americans. It would be a stupid business decision to do so. It was one thing to test players, preach social distancing, etc. Its another when you are asking someone to put something into their bodies or else. The players won't cave and several fans won't either. They will turn away. This a line they aren't willing to cross.

I agree that they wouldn't want to push away fans, but I doubt any (or many) fans would stop watching because Wiggins, Kyrie, Isaac and Beal didn't get paid for games missed.

But I imagine they won't make big statements about it to drive away potential fans. There have always been very liberal individuals who have been against vaccines and don't want to put any drugs or even foods that are not vegan into their bodies, and that is understandable. Then there was the last administration adamant that we get the vaccine first to slow down the #s..though the strange thing is it seems like there are more and more people on that side of the equation that are against it along with the vegan/natural crowd, which is interesting.

But yeah, the NBA will obviously not want to drive away fans if possible.

[Optms]

Oh, I think more fans will be turned off by the refusal of players to get vaccinated, especially when their favorite team starts to lose games because players are stuck in covid protocol.

Plus the majority of NBA fans are on the coasts, not the flyover states where resistance to the vaccine is greatest.

The coastal locations average around (state-wise) 55% to 64% of fully vaccinated population. You would think they would be higher but apparently not. So there is still a massive pool of people within places like Cali or New York that are unvaccinated. And the NBA has teams in almost every major flyover state as well, states with high unvaccinated populations.

At the end of the day, this is about losing fans. Would you rather keep all your fans and maximize profits? That is the league's main objective, aside from putting out an entertaining product. So they would not be doing themselves any favors from a financial side by pushing for a vaccine that will potentially alienate key star players and anywhere from 25-45% of the fanbase. Its just a dumb business move.