Hoopshype's "20 Greatest PFs ever" list

[NoStatsGuy]

good list, i just dont know what is greater about KGs career over dirks.

but i guess im not completely unbiased. dirk dont need no superteam to get a ring he beat it

[UcanUwill]

I overlooked the fact Duncan is on this list, but if they list Bosh as center and Duncan as PF still, now that would just be stupid.

[Winsome Gerbil]

If Giannis is going to be a PF, the general idea for the top of the list is right. Glad they got the Duncan/Malone 1/2 right a least. This bboard always underrates the all time nature of Malone's accomplishments. He was the absolute GOAT PF before Duncan, whowas really a C. And nobody afterward did anything to unseat him. With the position all but dead now under the small ball anarchy, there may not be another PF with a chance at that kind of perennial dominance for decades. Giannis is in his laste 20s and got started so late he already has little chance.

List breaks down later though.

Green doesn't belong that high. Such hipsterness to that choice. The master of the single double has a single use on a single type of team. Alone he's the best player on a 15-50 squad.

Sheed was not Top 20. The myth of Sheed is ridiculous at some point. He has career averages of 14.4pts and 6.7reb with a 17.0PER. He won 1 title, after joining a contender midseason (he played 22 games for them in the regular season), as a 4th man. He was part of the Jailblazers. The talented player who could have been more thing is accurate, but the "could have been more" is critical. He wasn't.

Not sure what to do with Aldridge at 20 -- that's a longevity pick, and there are many other possibles depending on your criteria. In recent years Blake was absolutely better, just not as durable.

[OkcSinceSGA]

Blake Griffin was much better than many of the guys on the bottom of the list. In their prime Aldridge has an argument in maybe one year for being clearly better. CAREER averages of 20.5/8.5/4.5 basically while being a corpse the last two seasons. Disrespectful.

And yea, Bosh should be there too.

[Rendei]

If Giannis is going to be a PF, the general idea for the top of the list is right. Glad they got the Duncan/Malone 1/2 right a least. This bboard always underrates the all time nature of Malone's accomplishments. He was the absolute GOAT PF before Duncan, whowas really a C. And nobody afterward did anything to unseat him. With the position all but dead now under the small ball anarchy, there may not be another PF with a chance at that kind of perennial dominance for decades. Giannis is in his laste 20s and got started so late he already has little chance.

List breaks down later though.

Green doesn't belong that high. Such hipsterness to that choice. The master of the single double has a single use on a single type of team. Alone he's the best player on a 15-50 squad.

Sheed was not Top 20. The myth of Sheed is ridiculous at some point. He has career averages of 14.4pts and 6.7reb with a 17.0PER. He won 1 title, after joining a contender midseason (he played 22 games for them in the regular season), as a 4th man. He was part of the Jailblazers. The talented player who could have been more thing is accurate, but the "could have been more" is critical. He wasn't.

Not sure what to do with Aldridge at 20 -- that's a longevity pick, and there are many other possibles depending on your criteria. In recent years Blake was absolutely better, just not as durable.

You say Giannis got started late, but he has more points and rebounds than Malone did at his age. And that will remain true even if Giannis doesn't play another game all season.

[dirkforpres]

Duncan should be listed as a C.

Giannis and Dirk should both be ahead of Garnett and Malone

[old skool]

Schayes is the one that stands out to me as notably underrated. I'd probably have him #8. I'm lower on Malone than that as well, I'd probably have him #4. Giannis behind Barkley (maybe even Pettit) for now, though closing.

Certainly it is challenging to compare players across different eras.

Antetokounmpo is not an effective 3-point scorer, but he clearly benefits from the spacing that the 3-point line provides. Antetokounmpo is the most athletic of the three. The biggest, longest and strongest as well. I'm not sure that Barkley was better than Pettit at any aspect of the game other than 3-point shooting, which did not exist for Pettit, and quickness and playmaking. Antetokounmpo is a much better defender than Barkley. Barkley and Pettit were better jump shooters by a wide margin, and better rebounders. I would have a difficult time ranking Barkley ahead of Pettit due to Pettit's overall accomplishments and recognitions (All-Star teams, All-NBA teams, 1st player to score 20,000 points etc). Pettit left the NBA at age 32 because in his era players had to make a living beyond basketball, or his total numbers would obviously be higher.

But given where each of the three players are at age 27, Antetokounmpo is clearly the best of the three.

And Pettit was clearly a better PF than Barkley. Pettit scored over 2,000 points in 5 seasons and grabbed over 1,000 rebounds in 9 seasons. Barkley only scored 2,000 points twice and 1,000 rebounds once. Barkley has some advantages over Pettit, like almost twice the number of assists, which would favor him if this was a discussion on who was the better SF. But Pettit was the better PF.

[Texas Chuck]

Nothing like the Duncan should be a center comments. Let's look at Duncan's career. Plays through 2003 next to Admiral. He's a PF. Then the Spurs bring in Rasho for 3 seasons. Still clearly a PF. Then its Oberto. Now he's shorter than Duncan, but look at his actual game--he plays as a center. Just like Rose did. Just like Blair did.

Yes, Duncan could and did play center. He also played a long time as a PF. Let it go already.

[Texas Chuck]

Worth noting that KG and Dirk both played a fair amount of center too, but nobody ever argues they should be labeled one. And the reason for most in doing so is they like another PF and by kicking Duncan out they believe it to elevate their guy. Sorry, but no matter what position you call Timmy, he was a better player than both KG and Dirk. And zero shame in that for either of them, but truth is truth as much as that personally pains me.

[GSWFan1994]

Blake Griffin was much better than many of the guys on the bottom of the list. In their prime Aldridge has an argument in maybe one year for being clearly better. CAREER averages of 20.5/8.5/4.5 basically while being a corpse the last two seasons. Disrespectful.

And yea, Bosh should be there too.

Griffin was better indeed... but for a whole career's worth? I mean, in the end I view Griffin as someone who had 5/7 very good years, with lot of injuries & missed games in the middle.

So, when you assess a whole career of games, that's why he is behind those other names. And that's perfectly right, from my point of view.

Remember, a career counts not only prime years, or peak, or whatever... it counts the whole shebang.

Edit: just to put it into context, Griffin has only 14k points and 5.8k rebounds. That's way too little compared to other names in the list, IMO.

[OkcSinceSGA]

Blake Griffin was much better than many of the guys on the bottom of the list. In their prime Aldridge has an argument in maybe one year for being clearly better. CAREER averages of 20.5/8.5/4.5 basically while being a corpse the last two seasons. Disrespectful.

And yea, Bosh should be there too.

Griffin was better indeed... but for a whole career's worth? I mean, in the end I view Griffin as someone who had 5/7 very good years, with lot of injuries & missed games in the middle.

So, when you assess a whole career of games, that's why he is behind those other names. And that's perfectly right, from my point of view.

Remember, a career counts not only prime years, or peak, or whatever... it counts the whole shebang.

Edit: just to put it into context, Griffin has only 14k points and 5.8k rebounds. That's way too little compared to other numbers in the list, IMO.

It depends. Sure, longevity and winning rings matters a ton. But as mentioned one of those guys here was a 14/9 guy at his peak. Then much worse other years. How the hell is that fair? Someone like Draymond has meh stats, but is a winner and has rings. So I can accept that. But many of the guys in last 5-7 names of list don’t have the resume of Draymond for example.

[Texas Chuck]

[

It depends. Sure, longevity and winning rings matters a ton. But as mentioned one of those guys here was a 14/9 guy at his peak. Then much worse other years. How the hell is that fair? Someone like Draymond has meh stats, but is a winner and has rings. So I can accept that. But many of the guys in last 5-7 names of list don’t have the resume of Draymond for example.

Maybe you aren't familiar with some of those players? Bobby Jones was an elite defending forward. As was Dave D. All-D a bunch of times and deservedly so. Sheed was a terrific defensive player as well. Just looking at their stats and concluding they aren't very good is missing a lot of their value.

[Roger Murdock]

I wouldn't have Rasheed Wallace in my top 30

Bosh, Love, Amare, Marion, Brand could have gotten consideration for those last few spots.

Davis is too high.

[Statlanta]

Sheed was not Top 20. The myth of Sheed is ridiculous at some point. He has career averages of 14.4pts and 6.7reb with a 17.0PER. He won 1 title, after joining a contender midseason (he played 22 games for them in the regular season), as a 4th man. He was part of the Jailblazers. The talented player who could have been more thing is accurate, but the "could have been more" is critical. He wasn't.

Sheed could have had 3 titles(2000, 2010) He was the missing piece to that Pistons team. He had a more complete game than anyone on the Pistons due to playing in the West before his teammates did. Chauncey Billups and Ben Wallace were the journeymen. He was the 2nd best defender on those Pistons teams which won solely due to their defense.

[GSWFan1994]

It depends. Sure, longevity and winning rings matters a ton. But as mentioned one of those guys here was a 14/9 guy at his peak. Then much worse other years. How the hell is that fair? Someone like Draymond has meh stats, but is a winner and has rings. So I can accept that. But many of the guys in last 5-7 names of list don’t have the resume of Draymond for example.

Look, an all-time great player, for me, is easy to identify:

1. Awesome peak/prime or both
2. Very good longevity
3. Heavy impact on winning (= great supporting player, great defensive player, etc)
4. A combination of the 3 above, or all of them.

Take Bobby Jones' case:

- Played 12 seasons
- Was 1st team all-defense in his first 10 years (how amazing is that? if I'm not mistaken the only player in NBA's history to achieve that)
- Then dropped a bit, was 2nd team all-defense in his 11th season
- Part of the great 1983 Sixers team, who were champions and steamrolled everyone, while also being contenders on other seasons

Though not quite there, Draymond seems like he's on a similar (though not quite impressive) path, right?

Griffin has only the 1st factor I mentioned above. Do we agree on this instance, right?

So, when you compare things from this point of view, the other players in the aforementioned list fare better than him.

And that's not a negative on Griffin... if the list were, let's say, a top 30 instead of a top 20, he would probably be there.

PS: I don't think Rasheed should be top 20, I'll give you that one.

[Lalouie]

tim is a center

they only put him at pf so that he can be a #1 of something because he's #1 in everyone's heart

[theforumblue]

i'd put giannis at #3 and swap AD with Pau.

[shoresy69]

I'm not saying it's wrong, but this order of players seems completely arbitrary in their overall Top 75:

4. Magic
5. Russell
6. Wilt
7. Bird

Doesn't make sense to me that two players who are generally equally rated (Magic and Bird) have two players from a completely different era in between them lol.

Their 11-20 rankings are a complete mess too.

[fanofthegreats]

Rasheed Wallace has no business on this list.

[Whopper_Sr]

Duncan is a center..

Hmm yeah if they're going to list Bosh as a Center they sure as **** have to list Duncan as one lol

Bosh is closer to a SF than a C. That's dumb.