Was Muggsy Bogues the best player in the world?

[Lockdown504090]

ive been to his camp, hes really that small btw. hes shorter than kevin hart.

[Michael Jackson]

It's hyperbole calling him the best ever even pound for pound. Still an amazing player. One could argue though say he was 6'3" he wouldn't have developed the skills he did. Part of his development I am sure was because he had to. Also guarding a guy like that is a different challenge because he is a completely different look. Was he better than Boykins? Maybe but he was a crazy athlete too. Nate might take the cake though as far as athlete and skill size etc... but he was taller than Mugsy so that disqualifies him?

[Michael Jackson]

ive been to his camp, hes really that small btw. hes shorter than kevin hart.

I was at a game with curtsied seats behind the visitors bench, happened to be the Nuggets that night. I'm looking Boykins warm up and I thought it was the ball boy at first, like damn that kid has a stroke! Then I shortly after that felt stupid and figured out who it was.

[DCasey91]

I'm the best chess player in the world when you adjust for IQ.

dont think chess is that strongly associated with IQ tho

Sorry to tell you but it’s the opposite. The top 30 grandmasters in the world has by far the highest IQ recorded for any profession. Basically genius level intellect that’s just for raw IQ (IQ is the best indicator we have for career success in fields with high IQs general to the population doctors, lawyers, scientists etc. but I digress).

Makes sense humans have a tipping point on mathematics when taking lines of play. They can stretch it further then everybody else but pales in comparison to a Chess Machine where a 20th line is very simple but for a greatest chess players ever that’s basically a mystery the numbers of lines would fill up a whole post.

One of the most impressive things is when Kasparov beat Deep Blue and Lee Sedol won a game with Alpha Go decades later (very interesting docu on AL learning which is far superior than us). Dubbed the “GOD” move whereby the machine didn’t account for the 1/10,000 move and thus turning the game on its head. In the interview Sedol just said it felt right and didn’t think about it. Up to a point we definelty don’t have the computational power to think that far ahead.

Used to be emulation from an inferior source (us)
Then to machine learning from machine
Now to self learning and vs other game machines
Or machine vs machine with their own biases on learning involved.

Cool part about it is humans now learn from machines and not the other way around. Now lines of play that would make normal humans have migraines and the best in the world make it understandable. They actually do the heavy lifting now on gamestates. I think from memory it’s about six steps mostly covered for after opening play. There’s an unimaginable number of variations but that is also covered well by the machine and historicity on backlogs that leads to essentially similar board states. It’s revolutionary now in Chess because the game is trending towards more “opening kind of play” because a huge X number, and much more lines of play has been accounted for.

Insane part about it is that Magnus Carlsen the GOAT probably remembers most of the lines he’s ever come across and read. He can play 50+ average men blindfolded and would beat everyone one of them pretty comfortably. That’s a genius and then some.

For Muggsy it’ll be more like a less talented Mighty Mouse Johnson being able to contend (no where near being the best) at welterweight which is absurd in of itself.

Physically an anomaly in the NBA probably the rarest case on record but it doesn’t have much to do with IQ but I get the op’s statement.

[bbalnation]

He was definitely one of the craftiest offensive and defensive players of all time. Players were large and fast when Bogues was playing... we're talking about Mike's generation. Not as athletic as today (objectively, that's how human evolution and modern medicine/health work), but still: everyone was 6'2+, and large centers/power forwards were prominent.

5'3?

In pickup basketball, we used to go at my boy who was like 5'4 (he adjusted), and we were all 5'11 tops. Bogues doing what he did at an NBA level, as long as he did, as well as he did, is shake your head worthy of impressive imo.

I dont know if I'd describe it as "best" though. If he had a Steph like jumper I'd have a hard time disagreeing. But without that major basketball skill, its hard for me to see, especially when Steph is doing what hes doing (1 foot taller or not).

[Buckeye-NBAFan]

Well you would hope the best pound for pound player in the world would be able to shoot a higher career FT% than 82.7...

What does it matter if he can shoot 80% from the field against every other 5'3 player.

[Sothron]

I am 5'9" and started in Division 3 college basketball at PG. I was the shortest guy on the court every game. I can't even imagine how Muggsy did it at 5'3" against the best players in the world. I've always respected him and Spud Webb and other short guys that had long careers in the NBA. I don't think Muggsy was the best player in the world but pound for pound? Yes, I can see that argument.

[theforumblue]

It's hyperbole calling him the best ever even pound for pound. Still an amazing player. One could argue though say he was 6'3" he wouldn't have developed the skills he did. Part of his development I am sure was because he had to. Also guarding a guy like that is a different challenge because he is a completely different look. Was he better than Boykins? Maybe but he was a crazy athlete too. Nate might take the cake though as far as athlete and skill size etc... but he was taller than Mugsy so that disqualifies him?

nate's 6 inches taller and 45lb heavier. that's a huge difference even if mugsy was 6'3, let alone 5'3.

[DCasey91]

I am 5'9" and started in Division 3 college basketball at PG. I was the shortest guy on the court every game. I can't even imagine how Muggsy did it at 5'3" against the best players in the world. I've always respected him and Spud Webb and other short guys that had long careers in the NBA. I don't think Muggsy was the best player in the world but pound for pound? Yes, I can see that argument.

Quick anecdote my oldest brother is best mates with three brothers (set of twins) that are 6”9”, 6”10, 6”11 Straight up they got offered to play for a district team because of their height and none of them ever picked up a basketball lol. They are all batsh*t crazy, the most “behaved” one has a criminal record to paint a picture.

It’s awesome though being with him nice blokes but yeah crazy and basically when your out in the town everybody basically just steps aside.

I’m 5”9” too I definitely know what your talking about. Only thing that helps me is I have bloody chimp knuckle dragging arms and can touch the rim lmao

[NeoDragonKnight]

I mean Muggsy also used his size to his advantage being able to dog other PGs constantly up the court, I recall on opencourt Cwebb was saying other PGs hated playing against Muggsy for that reason, and unless you had elite ball handling skills like Mitch Richmond, then he wore you down.

[bballfan1three3]

Yes

Legends get no respect

Other thread basketball is 99.99999% genetics, muggsy is the walking exception

Muggsy is the real 1 in a billion athlete. Not some 6 10 guy with a jumper, the 5'3 guy who was an All Star. In the mother friggin NBA. For 10 years!!!!! Everyone in this thread is 5'9-6' talking about how tall people have an advantage. To muggsy, everyone is tall.

Cant believe he isn't talked about more, NBA never talks about him. He set the standard too high, there might not be another muggsy cause now not only do you have to be 5'3 quality NBA player you also have to be a 5'3 10 time all star or else all the haters will be like 'wasnt as good as muggsy' because the NBA is a hater society.

[Saint Lazarus]

Celtics IT > Michael Jordan

[homecourtloss]

I'm the best chess player in the world when you adjust for IQ.

dont think chess is that strongly associated with IQ tho

How and why would one think this? High level chess players are all highly intelligent.

https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2016/09/160913124722.htm

[dhsilv2]

I'm the best chess player in the world when you adjust for IQ.

dont think chess is that strongly associated with IQ tho

Seems a pretty strong correlation though it's certainly not perfect. Both due to IQ test issues, some areas of IQ not really being important here, and of course practice.

https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2016/09/160913124722.htm#:~:text=The%20study%20found%20that%20intelligence,at%20lower%20levels%20of%20skill.&text=%22Imagine%20that%20a%20genius%20can,average%20intelligence%20may%20take%20longer.

https://thechessworld.com/articles/healthpsycology/chess-rating-and-iq-score-correlation/

[dhsilv2]

Yes

Legends get no respect

Other thread basketball is 99.99999% genetics, muggsy is the walking exception

Muggsy is the real 1 in a billion athlete. Not some 6 10 guy with a jumper, the 5'3 guy who was an All Star. In the mother friggin NBA. For 10 years!!!!! Everyone in this thread is 5'9-6' talking about how tall people have an advantage. To muggsy, everyone is tall.

Cant believe he isn't talked about more, NBA never talks about him. He set the standard too high, there might not be another muggsy cause now not only do you have to be 5'3 quality NBA player you also have to be a 5'3 10 time all star or else all the haters will be like 'wasnt as good as muggsy' because the NBA is a hater society.

wasn't an allstar...

[Sothron]

I am 5'9" and started in Division 3 college basketball at PG. I was the shortest guy on the court every game. I can't even imagine how Muggsy did it at 5'3" against the best players in the world. I've always respected him and Spud Webb and other short guys that had long careers in the NBA. I don't think Muggsy was the best player in the world but pound for pound? Yes, I can see that argument.

Quick anecdote my oldest brother is best mates with three brothers (set of twins) that are 6”9”, 6”10, 6”11 Straight up they got offered to play for a district team because of their height and none of them ever picked up a basketball lol. They are all batsh*t crazy, the most “behaved” one has a criminal record to paint a picture.

It’s awesome though being with him nice blokes but yeah crazy and basically when your out in the town everybody basically just steps aside.

I’m 5”9” too I definitely know what your talking about. Only thing that helps me is I have bloody chimp knuckle dragging arms and can touch the rim lmao

That wingspan can save you. I had great speed and hops. I could dunk on a regulation basket until I tore my hamstring in college. It is crazy how any tall guy can be offered a chance to play basketball just in the hopes of teaching skills but smaller guys get almost no chance to play. Hence why I had to play Div 3 instead of higher but hey, loved every second of my college days.

[tbhawksfan1]

Didn't Smith say "pound for pound, the best player in the world" or something like that?

Would you rather have three Muggsies or one Zion?

Comparing the shortest player in history to the fatest is probably a bad example

[tbhawksfan1]

Didn't Smith say "pound for pound, the best player in the world" or something like that?

Would you rather have three Muggsies or one Zion?

Comparing the shortest player in history to the fatest is probably a bad example

...and one Zion equals about eight Muggsies

[brutalitops]

Nah


Muggsey Bogues 5'3"
Points 6857


Michael Jordan 6'6"
Points 32,292

So is 13 inches a 5 times multiplier?

[frica]

I'm the best chess player in the world when you adjust for IQ.

dont think chess is that strongly associated with IQ tho

Sorry to tell you but it’s the opposite. The top 30 grandmasters in the world has by far the highest IQ recorded for any profession. Basically genius level intellect that’s just for raw IQ (IQ is the best indicator we have for career success in fields with high IQs general to the population doctors, lawyers, scientists etc. but I digress).

Makes sense humans have a tipping point on mathematics when taking lines of play. They can stretch it further then everybody else but pales in comparison to a Chess Machine where a 20th line is very simple but for a greatest chess players ever that’s basically a mystery the numbers of lines would fill up a whole post.

One of the most impressive things is when Kasparov beat Deep Blue and Lee Sedol won a game with Alpha Go decades later (very interesting docu on AL learning which is far superior than us). Dubbed the “GOD” move whereby the machine didn’t account for the 1/10,000 move and thus turning the game on its head. In the interview Sedol just said it felt right and didn’t think about it. Up to a point we definelty don’t have the computational power to think that far ahead.

Used to be emulation from an inferior source (us)
Then to machine learning from machine
Now to self learning and vs other game machines
Or machine vs machine with their own biases on learning involved.

Cool part about it is humans now learn from machines and not the other way around. Now lines of play that would make normal humans have migraines and the best in the world make it understandable. They actually do the heavy lifting now on gamestates. I think from memory it’s about six steps mostly covered for after opening play. There’s an unimaginable number of variations but that is also covered well by the machine and historicity on backlogs that leads to essentially similar board states. It’s revolutionary now in Chess because the game is trending towards more “opening kind of play” because a huge X number, and much more lines of play has been accounted for.

Insane part about it is that Magnus Carlsen the GOAT probably remembers most of the lines he’s ever come across and read. He can play 50+ average men blindfolded and would beat everyone one of them pretty comfortably. That’s a genius and then some.

For Muggsy it’ll be more like a less talented Mighty Mouse Johnson being able to contend (no where near being the best) at welterweight which is absurd in of itself.

Physically an anomaly in the NBA probably the rarest case on record but it doesn’t have much to do with IQ but I get the op’s statement.

Based on what?
I know Nakamura (arguably best blitz player) did a MENSA test, and he scored an extremely average 103... even complained about not having enough time.
That's one of the best chess players alive, and arguably the fastest thinker in the sport.
Bang on average IQ.

Chess =/= IQ

Edit: Nakamura tested 102, not 103.