Lowest arguable ranking for Kobe?

[MrBigShot]

This one is interesting because Kobe wasnt the best shooter and wasnt the best clutch player... And his rings can be argued that Shaq and Pau carried him. When Shaq left Kobe didnt even make the playoffs than when they got Pau they took off again. Will be interesting to see where people rank him.

He really was the luckiest basketball player ever. Never had any incredible playoff moments.

I think people tend to forget how much he failed in playoffs only to be saved by his teammates.

I'd say ~15-17 range.

[SlovenianDragon]

Me: Trying to discuss something
Kobe stans: TROLL!!!

Good conversation.

[Archx]

Kobe couldnt have won without Pau.

This is an interesting thread where you have to rank them as lowest as possible... But you are letting ur feelings get in the way.

I answered the question posed by the OP. You've done nothing but take jabs at the player in question. Who's the one in their feelings, again?

Booker is my favorite player and he did really well in the playoffs last year... But if we won the chip it would have been because of Ayton.

And you have to look at Kobe in this same sense. Who was the most consistent player that actually put the team on their back. And that was Shaq and Pau.

Come on now, don't go in to extremes ...Normal stats, advance stats and even On/Off numbers alone will tell you that Kobe was the one doing actual carrying during Gasol era. He just needed his 2nd star like MJ and Lebron did, well Lebron needed more but still, you get my point...

[Optms]

i don't think you can rank him outside top 20, unless you don't care about longevity at all.

This is RealGM here. I am sure many will make the argument for top 30. The hatred for this man ran deep even during his horrific demise.

[cupcakesnake]

I think the most reasonable arguments have him between 8-14.

The easiest way to boost someone or tumble them down the rankings, while making a pseudo reasonable argument, is to highly value old school guys or current players who are near the end of their careers. So if you really want to tumble Kobe (or any player) do both!

Here's my method for getting Kobe down to the low 20s.
0. Assume the top 10 is any order of Kareem, Russell, MJ, Lebron, Bird, Magic, Hakeem, Shaq, Duncan, Wilt.
1. I have Kobe in a tier of "cuspy top 10 guys" with Jerry West, Big O, KG, Dirk, Dr. J, David Robinson. So let's start by ranking all those guys ahead of him, lowering Kobe's ceiling to 15ish.
2. Let's now put Curry, Chris Paul, and Durant over him. Heck let's throw Giannis in there and go crazy.
3. Now let's roll in some old school guys that are impossible to compare to Kobe: Mikan, Elgin Baylor? Moses? should I go wild and say Bob Pettit?! (no jamaalstar, that would be too powerful.)
4. Kobe is now in a tier with guys like Nash, Wade, Karl Malone, Barkley, Harden, Stockton, Pippen. I can't justify putting him at the bottom of this, but I can make a arguable case for a few of these guys (some peaked higher, some played in less desirable circumstances etc.). So I'll put Kobe somewhere in the middle.

There you have it, an easy recipe for Kobe as being ranked the 21st-26th-ish player of all-time.
- Use old school bias and current player bias at the same time.
- Put players in tiers and then bump the subject player down to the bottom of the tier. Do that twice

I don't personally condone doing this though, unless you're a hater trying to add some plausible deniability to you Kobe hater analysis. You can do this for any ATG by the way.

[LBJKB24MJ23]

i think he's top 10 but i can see and agree with some of the arguments that put him from 10-15 as well.

[cupcakesnake]

i don't think you can rank him outside top 20, unless you don't care about longevity at all.

This is RealGM here. I am sure many will make the argument for top 30. The hatred for this man ran deep even during his horrific demise.

Right but the question is "lowest arguable".
Anyone can just say "Kobe aint even top 1 billion". But arguing that might be challenging.
Anyone who wants to put Kobe closer to 30 should explain how they're going to argue it. I did, just a second ago, but I'm mostly joking about what that argument would have to be.

[KGtabake]

Wilt, MJ, LeBron, Magic, KAJ, Bird, Russell, Shaq, Duncan, Hakeem (in that order) are clearly above him. So, i would say anywhere between #11 and #17, battling with Garnett, Malones(both), Barkley, West, Dirk.

[Marrrcuss]

This one is interesting because Kobe wasnt the best shooter and wasnt the best clutch player... And his rings can be argued that Shaq and Pau carried him. When Shaq left Kobe didnt even make the playoffs than when they got Pau they took off again. Will be interesting to see where people rank him.

Anyone claiming Pau carried him should just be banned. That sounds like the over the top hater stuff that folks use on other players they dont like.

[dhsilv2]

i don't think you can rank him outside top 20, unless you don't care about longevity at all.

He's 19th in WS with guys like Russell, Hakeem, Magic, and Bird behind him. If you think Kobe's peak was lower than most do, it wouldn't be hard at all to move him outside the top 25.

[SlovenianDragon]

This one is interesting because Kobe wasnt the best shooter and wasnt the best clutch player... And his rings can be argued that Shaq and Pau carried him. When Shaq left Kobe didnt even make the playoffs than when they got Pau they took off again. Will be interesting to see where people rank him.

Anyone claiming Pau carried him should just be banned. That sounds like the over the top hater stuff that folks use on other players they dont like.

Or maybe you overly glorify kobe and disrespect Pau.

[Stalwart]

I think the most reasonable arguments have him between 8-14.

The easiest way to boost someone or tumble them down the rankings, while making a pseudo reasonable argument, is to highly value old school guys or current players who are near the end of their careers. So if you really want to tumble Kobe (or any player) do both!

Here's my method for getting Kobe down to the low 20s.
0. Assume the top 10 is any order of Kareem, Russell, MJ, Lebron, Bird, Magic, Hakeem, Shaq, Duncan, Wilt.
1. I have Kobe in a tier of "cuspy top 10 guys" with Jerry West, Big O, KG, Dirk, Dr. J, David Robinson. So let's start by ranking all those guys ahead of him, lowering Kobe's ceiling to 15ish.
2. Let's now put Curry, Chris Paul, and Durant over him. Heck let's throw Giannis in there and go crazy.
3. Now let's roll in some old school guys that are impossible to compare to Kobe: Mikan, Elgin Baylor? Moses? should I go wild and say Bob Pettit?! (no jamaalstar, that would be too powerful.)
4. Kobe is now in a tier with guys like Nash, Wade, Karl Malone, Barkley, Harden, Stockton, Pippen. I can't justify putting him at the bottom of this, but I can make a arguable case for a few of these guys (some peaked higher, some played in less desirable circumstances etc.). So I'll put Kobe somewhere in the middle.

There you have it, an easy recipe for Kobe as being ranked the 21st-26th-ish player of all-time.

I don't personally condone doing this though, unless you're a hater trying to add some plausible deniability to you Kobe hater analysis.

Lol. Thats nonsense. Why would you randomly throw Dirk, KG, Chris Paul, Pettit, and Elgin Baylor above him? Theres no argument. But that just goes to what Im saying. Kobe haters will always find a way to drop him lower.

[celticfan42487]

i don't think you can rank him outside top 20, unless you don't care about longevity at all.

He's 19th in WS with guys like Russell, Hakeem, Magic, and Bird behind him. If you think Kobe's peak was lower than most do, it wouldn't be hard at all to move him outside the top 25.

This

[Marrrcuss]

This one is interesting because Kobe wasnt the best shooter and wasnt the best clutch player... And his rings can be argued that Shaq and Pau carried him. When Shaq left Kobe didnt even make the playoffs than when they got Pau they took off again. Will be interesting to see where people rank him.

Anyone claiming Pau carried him should just be banned. That sounds like the over the top hater stuff that folks use on other players they dont like.

Or maybe you overly glorify kobe and disrespect Pau.

They were a great tandem. I never said Pau sucked like "carried" implies. I kept mine rather modest.

[Raps in 4]

Probably around #20. I have him in the low/mid-teens in my GOAT list.

[Myth]

Probably around #20. I have him in the low/mid-teens in my GOAT list.

This is probably where I am on this. I have him in the 9-11 range on my personal list, but I've seen some pretty decent arguments about his decision making at times (forcing bad shots, ball hogging, hindering the team for personal glory) that puts him lower than his skills would indicate. Though, on the flip side, I respect some arguments that he could be higher than 9 based on longevity, accomplishments, skill, and drive. Maybe 5ish is the highest that I view as a reasonable argument.

[dhsilv2]

I would say anything lower than 11 is a major stretch. And even 11 seems a bit try hard.

If you're going strictly by resume then Kobe is #7 or #8. By resume I mean team success, individual distinction, statistics, intangibles, impact/influence, ect. By that criteria he would fall between 6-10, maybe 11.

If you are going to go by analytics, narratives, and personal taste then Kobe haters will always find a way to rank him egregiously low. He should be clearly above names like Jerry West, Oscar, Dr. J, KD, Moses, and Steph. And names like KG & Dirk honestly shouldn't even be included in this discussion. There is no real argument to put him below 11 and like I said even that is a stretch.

I'm not sure you're accepting how different people value careers or go about answering this question.

One approach I always have liked for establishing where I'd rank players is MVP share. It's not perfect but if you're getting MVP votes, you likely were pretty good and I'm a big peak guy. If we do this Kobe comes in 10th all time. A perfectly fine and reasonable place to rank Kobe.

I however do find that the MVP award has too much team bias and often media bias, so a guy lie say KG at 18 or West at 26 seem off enough where I could with the same logic go another way. For this I might look to VORP as a good way to start a list. VORP is nice because while no stat is perfect, it's a good non biased way to see guys who added significant value over a replacement vs WS which just loves that you got minutes. Kobe here is 12 BUT it only goes back to 74 so we have to add a few guys. Wilt and Russell are obvious choices. I also have to consider West and Oscar. So kobe here could start off when being considered around 16th.

But someone else might take a more aggressive approach and ask the question of who was the best at their best. For this you might take best 5 years, and suddenly the flood gates of differences of opinions are going to come through. Suddenly you can start dropping Kobe in ways you or I might not have considered.

What if someone went even further and went with a 1 year peak? Suddenly the entire view of the rankings would change.

[Marrrcuss]

I hope we continue these topics because its going to get very interesting soon.

I remember Kobe taking over when Shaq fouled out against Indy. I remember the 45-15 game to finish out Sac-Town....just so much. If he's around 20, no current player outside of KD, Giannis and Bron are higher than that.

[kasrok]

I have him 12 on my list, I can argue maybe 15-20 if you consider his issues with teammates/coaches/trade demands

[dshearn]

Kobe has a Shaq problem when you're talking GOAT. Kobe wasn't even the MVP in the majority of his finals.

Maybe 12-15? We have players, playing now that are pushing him down my list in real time. Curry for example. I could not put Kobe above Curry.