Why does Jokic get far fewer FTAs than Embiid and Giannis?

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Re: Why does Jokic get far fewer FTAs than Embiid and Giannis? 

Post#21 » by HotelVitale » Thu Apr 21, 2022 2:32 pm

Cubbies2120 wrote:
Bum Adebayo wrote:Giannis is constantly driving to the rim, while Embiid is more face up instead of back to the basket, plus he is very adept doing rip through move, he knows the exct moment of when to get his shot off so that he makes contact with defender's arm.


It's this ^

Jokic doesn't actively seek contact, Embiid does - he looks for the foul, and exaggerates contact when it occurs.

Embiid would have Green in foul trouble in the first quarter - when Green pushes you in the back while fighting for position, just fall down and the refs will whistle it.


Keep up here. Yes Embiid does that stuff like many scorers but nothing is stupider than thinking that ‘exaggerating contact’ will allow you to lead the league in FT attempts. You can be annoyed at the antics that get him maybe 3 ft attempts per game while still not shutting off the part of your brain that a) analyzes cause and effect and b) watches what’s in front of you.

Embiid draws a ton of FTs because he’s unguardable one on one, if you watch him for a few minutes you’ll see a couple of tools that help him with that. He has a very quick first step for a big and can usually get separation on his face up drives. Your going to have to foul him or have a help defender try to strip him once that happens, no other choice. His strength also means he can always drive toward any gap and just absorb the contact (from the help often). The threat of his shot also means that his defender is often leaning to contest, and he’s so shifty that he can lean the other way and get you to foil him from the perimeter. Or he often just blows by people if they go for his pump fake, leaving a clear lane to the cup that you have to foil or try to take a charge to stop.
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Re: Why does Jokic get far fewer FTAs than Embiid and Giannis? 

Post#22 » by Peregrine01 » Thu Apr 21, 2022 2:35 pm

DaPessimist wrote:Jokic primarily draws his fouls from the post with his back to the basket, and his main move is simply to turn into the defender and shoot a hook. He initiates most of the contact, and most of the contact is with the body, not the arms. I'm not saying he shouldn't get more foul calls, but it's much easier to call a foul when a guy is attacking the rim and gets contact across the arms.


Jokic gets A LOT of contact on his arms.

The main issue is that Giannis and Embiid play like guards and Jokic plays like a big. Refs are a lot more favorable toward guard play than big play.
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Re: Why does Jokic get far fewer FTAs than Embiid and Giannis? 

Post#23 » by jbent87 » Thu Apr 21, 2022 2:49 pm

lol @ the Celtics fans in here calling Embiid a flopper.

See you guys in the ECF. Gonna get humbled just like these ridiculous Raptors fans have.
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Re: Why does Jokic get far fewer FTAs than Embiid and Giannis? 

Post#24 » by Kobe187 » Thu Apr 21, 2022 3:01 pm

He plays high post a lot more than low post, is a distributor first before a scorer, less FG attempts per game.
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Re: Why does Jokic get far fewer FTAs than Embiid and Giannis? 

Post#25 » by Cubbies2120 » Thu Apr 21, 2022 3:07 pm

HotelVitale wrote:
Cubbies2120 wrote:
Bum Adebayo wrote:Giannis is constantly driving to the rim, while Embiid is more face up instead of back to the basket, plus he is very adept doing rip through move, he knows the exct moment of when to get his shot off so that he makes contact with defender's arm.


It's this ^

Jokic doesn't actively seek contact, Embiid does - he looks for the foul, and exaggerates contact when it occurs.

Embiid would have Green in foul trouble in the first quarter - when Green pushes you in the back while fighting for position, just fall down and the refs will whistle it.


Keep up here. Yes Embiid does that stuff like many scorers but nothing is stupider than thinking that ‘exaggerating contact’ will allow you to lead the league in FT attempts. You can be annoyed at the antics that get him maybe 3 ft attempts per game while still not shutting off the part of your brain that a) analyzes cause and effect and b) watches what’s in front of you.

Embiid draws a ton of FTs because he’s unguardable one on one, if you watch him for a few minutes you’ll see a couple of tools that help him with that. He has a very quick first step for a big and can usually get separation on his face up drives. Your going to have to foul him or have a help defender try to strip him once that happens, no other choice. His strength also means he can always drive toward any gap and just absorb the contact (from the help often). The threat of his shot also means that his defender is often leaning to contest, and he’s so shifty that he can lean the other way and get you to foil him from the perimeter. Or he often just blows by people if they go for his pump fake, leaving a clear lane to the cup that you have to foil or try to take a charge to stop.


Cute little passive aggressiveness there lil man :lol:

He's unguardable if the refs do their job (they are), but they're not doing it for Jokic.

"Turn on the part of your brain" that processes what ya see, champ, and you'll see Green not just standing in his position, but actually pushing Jokic in the back, moving him forwards.

On almost every single possession that Jokic posts up (his bread and butter), Green does one of these 3:
https://videorulebook.nba.com/archive/defensive-foul-in-the-post-defender-dislodges-opponent-body-bump-3/
https://videorulebook.nba.com/rule/post-defender-wraps-arms-around-opponent/
https://videorulebook.nba.com/rule/post-defender-uses-straight-arm/

Those are all illegal defensive moves. Green is getting away with it because Jokic doesn't fall to the floor like a b**** :lol:
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Re: Why does Jokic get far fewer FTAs than Embiid and Giannis? 

Post#26 » by sp6r=underrated » Thu Apr 21, 2022 3:22 pm

1. Stockton syndrome

Read on Twitter


Many referees throughout history have been more tolerant of hits on visually physically strong players. Visually is used intentionally. To fall into this category you need to have obvious physical mass. Jokic has it so refs let guys like Dray get away with bumping they would never allow on a physically slight player.

2. Post play

He operates more with his back to the back. Post play isn't popular with fans. Drives to the hoops are. The NBA rulebook is written to discourage post-play and encourage face up basketball. Second, referees are instructed more to look for contact that impedes drives to the hoops.

3. Fast twitch muscle fibers

A lot of foul calls are made based on athleticism rooted in fast twitch muscles. The ability to suddenly shift direction and generate rapid burst of speeds causing defenders to commit obvious fouls, hits on the arms. Jokic doesn't generate these calls as much as Embiid/Giannis.

4. Flopping

The crackdown that begun the season didn't last. Giannis doesn't do much of it but Embiid works hard at selling contact. I don't know why Sixers fans deny this. As long as tv rating continue to go up with greater offensive efficiency the NBA is going to de facto allow it because it encourage the style of plan fans want.

1 is the reason Shaq nearly killed Brad Miller that night because he let out a decade of frustration at this rule. Jokic wrecking Morris season was somewhat tied to it too.

2 is a business decision. If fans start watching post-play will see stricter enforcement of contact in the post. If fans got tired of carrying, we'd go back to the pre-AI rules.

3 is legitimate ability difference. Jokic just doesn't generate these types of fouls relative to Giannis/Embiid. It is one area they are better at in the game of basketball. This is the plurality reason. Jokic fans ignore it and Embiid fans make it out like the only reason.

4 is a factor but gets too much attention. Jokic fans exagerrate it. Embiid fans deny there is any flopping.
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Re: Why does Jokic get far fewer FTAs than Embiid and Giannis? 

Post#27 » by BelgradeNugget » Thu Apr 21, 2022 3:51 pm

https://videorulebook.nba.com/archive/defensive-foul-in-the-post-defender-dislodges-opponent-body-bump-3/
https://videorulebook.nba.com/rule/post-defender-wraps-arms-around-opponent/
https://videorulebook.nba.com/rule/post-defender-uses-straight-arm/

For all people here, who had some reasonable explanations, please use rulebook from above and tell me how many fouls you see in this clip. It is from game 1. How many times defenders
1. Dislodged his body
2. Wrapped arms around him
3. Used straight arm



So much about great defense
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Re: Why does Jokic get far fewer FTAs than Embiid and Giannis? 

Post#28 » by Bum Adebayo » Thu Apr 21, 2022 3:59 pm

The problem is not about not admitting Jokic gets hacked at times and fouls are not called, that is fair and absolutely true. The problem is the constant disrespect Embiid gets just because he is better at drawing fouls compared to almost any other player, you don't need to diminish Embiid's ability to score when arguing about how Jokic is not getting some calls.
BTW, Giannis got 18, 18! FT in his last game and I don't hear a fraction of the complaints I hear about Embiid, and I'm not saying he didn't deserve those FT, just that I'm tired about always being the same player who gets the blame.
If Jokic is not getting those calls, it's refs fault, not Embiid's fault.
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Re: Why does Jokic get far fewer FTAs than Embiid and Giannis? 

Post#29 » by BelgradeNugget » Thu Apr 21, 2022 4:05 pm

Bum Adebayo wrote:The problem is not about not admitting Jokic gets hacked at times and fouls are not called, that is fair and absolutely true. The problem is the constant disrespect Embiid gets just because he is better at drawing fouls compared to almost any other player, you don't need to diminish Embiid's ability to score when arguing about how Jokic is not getting some calls.
BTW, Giannis got 18, 18! FT in his last game and I don't hear a fraction of the complaints I hear about Embiid, and I'm not saying he didn't deserve those FT, just that I'm tired about always being the same player who gets the blame.
If Jokic is not getting those calls, it's refs fault, not Embiid's fault.

100% right
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Re: Why does Jokic get far fewer FTAs than Embiid and Giannis? 

Post#30 » by Shock Defeat » Thu Apr 21, 2022 4:12 pm

Giannis barrels to the rim with no plan and gets rewarded with foul calls no matter what.
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Re: Why does Jokic get far fewer FTAs than Embiid and Giannis? 

Post#31 » by mcmurphy » Thu Apr 21, 2022 4:18 pm

Kobe187 wrote:He plays high post a lot more than low post, is a distributor first before a scorer, less FG attempts per game.


:roll:

Embiid RS 19.6 FGA/11.8 FTA USG= 37.2%
Embiid PO 17.0 FGA/11.3 FTA USG= 30.9%

Jokic RS 17.7 FGA/6.3 FTA USG= 31.9%
Jokic PO 22.5 FGA/5.0 FTA USG= 37.7%

Jokic in PO has increased usage of more 5%, increased of more 5FGA and shoot less FT
Embiid in PO has decreased usage of more 6%, decreased of more 2.5FGA and shoot same FT

:lol: :crazy:
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Re: Why does Jokic get far fewer FTAs than Embiid and Giannis? 

Post#32 » by bbalnation » Thu Apr 21, 2022 4:47 pm

mcmurphy wrote:
Kobe187 wrote:He plays high post a lot more than low post, is a distributor first before a scorer, less FG attempts per game.


:roll:

Embiid RS 19.6 FGA/11.8 FTA USG= 37.2%
Embiid PO 17.0 FGA/11.3 FTA USG= 30.9%

Jokic RS 17.7 FGA/6.3 FTA USG= 31.9%
Jokic PO 22.5 FGA/5.0 FTA USG= 37.7%

Jokic in PO has increased usage of more 5%, increased of more 5FGA and shoot less FT
Embiid in PO has decreased usage of more 6%, decreased of more 2.5FGA and shoot same FT

:lol: :crazy:


To add some context :

How does usage-rate work in the NBA/WNBA?

Usage rate calculates what percentage of team plays a player was involved in while he/she was on the floor, provided that the play ends in one of the three true results: field-goal attempt, free-throw attempt or turnover.
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Re: Why does Jokic get far fewer FTAs than Embiid and Giannis? 

Post#33 » by Kobe187 » Thu Apr 21, 2022 4:55 pm

Shock Defeat wrote:Giannis barrels to the rim with no plan and gets rewarded.


Giannis is a beast, no stopping him.
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Re: Why does Jokic get far fewer FTAs than Embiid and Giannis? 

Post#34 » by ANTETOKOUNBROS » Thu Apr 21, 2022 5:03 pm

Jokic has few flaws in his offensive game; one of them is using his size/strength to draw fouls. He is definitely a finesse guy with a great touch; not a guy who draws contact relentlessly. It is the flip side of his game.
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Re: Why does Jokic get far fewer FTAs than Embiid and Giannis? 

Post#35 » by Cubbies2120 » Thu Apr 21, 2022 5:13 pm

ANTETOKOUNBROS wrote:Jokic has few flaws in his offensive game; one of them is using his size/strength to draw fouls. He is definitely a finesse guy with a great touch; not a guy who draws contact relentlessly. It is the flip side of his game.


Pay attention to Jokic's post ups tonight when he gets position with Draymond behind him - Draymond will do 1 of 3 things:
https://videorulebook.nba.com/archive/defensive-foul-in-the-post-defender-dislodges-opponent-body-bump-3/
https://videorulebook.nba.com/rule/post-defender-wraps-arms-around-opponent/
https://videorulebook.nba.com/rule/post-defender-uses-straight-arm/

None of those will be called, even though each one of them is illegal.

Unless homecourt advantage gets the refs to start calling that, I expect more frustration out of Jokic when the literal rulebook is being thrown out when it comes to guarding him.
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Re: Why does Jokic get far fewer FTAs than Embiid and Giannis? 

Post#36 » by BelgradeNugget » Thu Apr 21, 2022 5:16 pm

ANTETOKOUNBROS wrote:Jokic has few flaws in his offensive game; one of them is using his size/strength to draw fouls. He is definitely a finesse guy with a great touch; not a guy who draws contact relentlessly. It is the flip side of his game.

Please use 10 minutes of your time to watch clip I posted above and tell me again about him not using his size/strength to draw contact
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Re: Why does Jokic get far fewer FTAs than Embiid and Giannis? 

Post#37 » by Lockdown504090 » Thu Apr 21, 2022 7:12 pm

Cubbies2120 wrote:
ANTETOKOUNBROS wrote:Jokic has few flaws in his offensive game; one of them is using his size/strength to draw fouls. He is definitely a finesse guy with a great touch; not a guy who draws contact relentlessly. It is the flip side of his game.


Pay attention to Jokic's post ups tonight when he gets position with Draymond behind him - Draymond will do 1 of 3 things:
https://videorulebook.nba.com/archive/defensive-foul-in-the-post-defender-dislodges-opponent-body-bump-3/
https://videorulebook.nba.com/rule/post-defender-wraps-arms-around-opponent/
https://videorulebook.nba.com/rule/post-defender-uses-straight-arm/

None of those will be called, even though each one of them is illegal.

Unless homecourt advantage gets the refs to start calling that, I expect more frustration out of Jokic when the literal rulebook is being thrown out when it comes to guarding him.

jokic powers through the contact here on the initial bump that would be called a foul if he showed the official the contact affected him.

compare that to this
https://videorulebook.nba.com/archive/defensive-foul-in-the-post-defender-dislodges-opponent-body-bump-3/

i really and truly believe that for the sake of winning games and his safety he needs to embellish more. Like I look at his arms and shoulders and theyre covered with cuts and scrapes because they know when they hit jokic. its similar but not as bad as CJ mucollum how he just is trying to make space to get his shot off, so he never gets to the line. jokic is trying to get to a spot and get a shot off that hes very good at off with as much space as he can create.
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Re: Why does Jokic get far fewer FTAs than Embiid and Giannis? 

Post#38 » by Bergmaniac » Thu Apr 21, 2022 7:20 pm

dhsilv2 wrote:You can't get fouled in today's nba if you're backing up to the basket. It's that simple and it's why we don't see back to the basket centers anymore. This isn't the 90's where you'd get called for hacking a big in the post. Today it's game on against anyone trying to post up.

This is so true and it drives me crazy. It's absurd that when you are backing down in the post the defender can do basically whatever he wants to you and the refs do nothing, but if you are facing every slight contact is a foul.
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Re: Why does Jokic get far fewer FTAs than Embiid and Giannis? 

Post#39 » by Cubbies2120 » Thu Apr 21, 2022 7:34 pm

Lockdown504090 wrote:
Cubbies2120 wrote:
ANTETOKOUNBROS wrote:Jokic has few flaws in his offensive game; one of them is using his size/strength to draw fouls. He is definitely a finesse guy with a great touch; not a guy who draws contact relentlessly. It is the flip side of his game.


Pay attention to Jokic's post ups tonight when he gets position with Draymond behind him - Draymond will do 1 of 3 things:
https://videorulebook.nba.com/archive/defensive-foul-in-the-post-defender-dislodges-opponent-body-bump-3/
https://videorulebook.nba.com/rule/post-defender-wraps-arms-around-opponent/
https://videorulebook.nba.com/rule/post-defender-uses-straight-arm/

None of those will be called, even though each one of them is illegal.

Unless homecourt advantage gets the refs to start calling that, I expect more frustration out of Jokic when the literal rulebook is being thrown out when it comes to guarding him.

jokic powers through the contact here on the initial bump that would be called a foul if he showed the official the contact affected him.

compare that to this
https://videorulebook.nba.com/archive/defensive-foul-in-the-post-defender-dislodges-opponent-body-bump-3/

i really and truly believe that for the sake of winning games and his safety he needs to embellish more. Like I look at his arms and shoulders and theyre covered with cuts and scrapes because they know when they hit jokic. its similar but not as bad as CJ mucollum how he just is trying to make space to get his shot off, so he never gets to the line. jokic is trying to get to a spot and get a shot off that hes very good at off with as much space as he can create.


This is a PERFECT example.

He needs to just fall to the floor like some other big men to get to the line, instead of being a man about it.
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Re: Why does Jokic get far fewer FTAs than Embiid and Giannis? 

Post#40 » by thenbaman » Thu Apr 21, 2022 8:35 pm

Like Shaq just said on the nba today Embiid is the best player on the planet and is the MVP
no matter how the vote goes........

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