Can you make a contender only using players with less than 10ppg career average?

[og15]

Ben Wallace
Robert Horry
Reggie Bullock
Kyle Korver
Patty Mills

And just beat the NBA record for 3s attempted running Korver and to a lesser extent Bullock off screens. Have Bullock screen for Korver on the weak side. Have Korver attempt at least 15 3s a game.

Big Ben, Horry and Bullock gives you a solid defensive foundation, with still the ability to run a 4-out offense.

If Korver could get off 15 good enough 3's a game, he would have been a bigger scorer. That's just tough to do even for guys much better than him at handling and creating shots.

[marthafokker]

Don't forget Ron Artest.

He was not a fake tough guy.

[SNPA]

The Bobby Jackson disrespect is strong.

[og15]

Don't forget Ron Artest.

He was not a fake tough guy.

Artest was too good of a scorer to make this list

[gailgoodrich]

I feel like this would be a very interesting question at ~15ppg

Let's see...

John Stockton / Jason Kidd / Steve Nash
Manu Ginobili / Michael Cooper / Shane Battier
Andre Igoudala / Jeff Hornacek / Robert Horry
Dennis Rodman / Draymond Green / Lamar Odom
Bill Russell / Bill Walton / Rudy Gobert

Okay, I'm cheating a little bit with Bill Russell. He's a whisker out at 15.1. Parish could slot in.

But this was done very lazily and I'm sure there are many more great choices.

[Chanel Bomber]

Ben Wallace
Robert Horry
Reggie Bullock
Kyle Korver
Patty Mills

And just beat the NBA record for 3s attempted running Korver and to a lesser extent Bullock off screens. Have Bullock screen for Korver on the weak side. Have Korver attempt at least 15 3s a game.

Big Ben, Horry and Bullock gives you a solid defensive foundation, with still the ability to run a 4-out offense.

If Korver could get off 15 good enough 3's a game, he would have been a bigger scorer. That's just tough to do even for guys much better than him at handling and creating shots.

I agree if you can play him alongside players who average more than 10 ppg for their career but the thread filters out 95% of all shot creators - but guys still have to take their shots.

The idea here is to run Korver off screens set by other shooters on the weak side (Bullock, Horry) so the screener's man cannot double him unless the defense is willing to let another shooter open.

I'd bet that Korver would get a lot more FGAs in today's NBA than he did in his prime as an athlete. His skill set was undervalued throughout his 20s. He was 33-34 already when the Hawks won 60 games and he made an All-Star team.

[og15]

Ben Wallace
Robert Horry
Reggie Bullock
Kyle Korver
Patty Mills

And just beat the NBA record for 3s attempted running Korver and to a lesser extent Bullock off screens. Have Bullock screen for Korver on the weak side. Have Korver attempt at least 15 3s a game.

Big Ben, Horry and Bullock gives you a solid defensive foundation, with still the ability to run a 4-out offense.

If Korver could get off 15 good enough 3's a game, he would have been a bigger scorer. That's just tough to do even for guys much better than him at handling and creating shots.

I agree if you can play him alongside players who average more than 10 ppg for their career but the thread filters out 95% of all shot creators - but guys still have to take their shots.

The idea here is to run Korver off screens set by other shooters on the weak side (Bullock, Horry) so the screener's man cannot double him unless the defense is willing to let another shooter open.

I'd bet that Korver would get a lot more FGAs in today's NBA than he did in his prime as an athlete. His skill set was undervalued throughout his 20s. He was 33-34 already when the Hawks won 60 games and he made an All-Star team.

Sometimes it's just the player, not all of them have the mentality to shoot a lot, but also there's additional skills required.

For example, compare Korver and Redick, Redick could do more if he didn't get the shot off the catch. Even go back to college, Korver wasn't a prolific scorer in college either, while Redick was killer.

[Chanel Bomber]

If Korver could get off 15 good enough 3's a game, he would have been a bigger scorer. That's just tough to do even for guys much better than him at handling and creating shots.

I agree if you can play him alongside players who average more than 10 ppg for their career but the thread filters out 95% of all shot creators - but guys still have to take their shots.

The idea here is to run Korver off screens set by other shooters on the weak side (Bullock, Horry) so the screener's man cannot double him unless the defense is willing to let another shooter open.

I'd bet that Korver would get a lot more FGAs in today's NBA than he did in his prime as an athlete. His skill set was undervalued throughout his 20s. He was 33-34 already when the Hawks won 60 games and he made an All-Star team.

Sometimes it's just the player, not all of them have the mentality to shoot a lot, but also there's additional skills required.

For example, compare Korver and Redick, Redick could do more if he didn't get the shot off the catch. Even go back to college, Korver wasn't a prolific scorer in college either, while Redick was killer.

I agree with that.

But this exercise is challenging by definition. A player like Redick doesn't match the criteria, for instance.

You need efficient scoring to contend. Or outlets for efficient scoring, whether directly or indirectly.

Increasing the volume of one of the greatest 3-point shooters ever - be as a decoy or as scorer - seems like a reasonable idea to me. I think he could've scored on a higher volume in a role similar to Reggie or Klay, though he was obviously more limited once he had to put the ball on the floor, hence the idea of having other shooters set screens for him. He could have real gravity as a decoy in that situation.

[SelfishPlayer]

Dana Barros averaged 10.5ppg for a career, and Mike Miller 10.6, I'm gonna okay them. Traditional position and championships don't mix.

PG Dana Barros .411 3pt, Bobby Jackson .354 3pt
SG Hubert Davis .441 3pt, Mario Elie .365 3pt
SF Mike Miller .407 3pt, Kyle Korver .429 3pt
PF Shane Battier .384 3pt James Posey
C Draymond Green, Robert Horry, Marcus Camby

[FreeThrowLine]

Your team is not well built though. You've clogged the paint with big guys who can't shoot and have in the process rendered Rondo pretty useless. Then you have Marco Belinelli, who could never find his niche in the NBA (he was always the "not quite good enough at creating", "not quite deadly enough of a spot-up shooter" guy), as the guy who'd be relied on to get buckets, on a team that's supposed to be "contending" no less. My guess is you're planning to insert this team in the 2004 Pistons era.. but even that team had guys who could get buckets on broken plays in Sheed, Rip and Billups.

I mean, my options are pretty limited, what big guys that averaged less than 10ppg for their career could shoot well enough that you'd take the trade off for GOAT level paint protection?

I'm basically taking the position that I already know I'm not going to win by traditional methods due to the limitations I've set, so I created a roster that would be the greatest paint defense of all time

Doing so forces opponents to rely on outside shooting and both severely limits their 2nd chance opportunities as the likelihood of securing rebounds against Mutombo, Noah, Rodman & Wallace are limited, plus I'm limiting their fast break opportunities as everyone would need to help out on the boards cause those same guys will be there getting my team 2nd and 3rd chance opportunties

My strategy in this sense is that, we might not shoot a higher percentage but we'll get more attempts due to the advantages we have on defense and rebounding.

I did say that I still don't see them as favourites, but the point is to try and make a team using these challenging limitations

[picc]

Going to even 11ppg might make this a more realistic goal.

And that's without looking at an 11ppg player list. I just know we aren't doing it with 10.

[SinceGatlingWasARookie]

Get a few bench gunners that would have score 20 points a game if they had played 30 minutes per game but only scored 9 points a game because they did not play much. Obviously these guys will ruin your beautiful defense but if you great defenders are stuggling on offense the bench gunner can help.

Earl Boykins averaged 9 points a game. 16 points for 36 minutes. I was looking for 25 points per 36 minutes but I like and trust Earl Boykins. He was a pesky little defender, not a total defensive liability.

Marco Belineli, only 9.7 points a game on low minutes.

[FreeThrowLine]

Going to even 11ppg might make this a more realistic goal.

And that's without looking at an 11ppg player list. I just know we aren't doing it with 10.

It definitely makes a difference, there were a number of guys I wanted to add that were just a touch over 10ppg for their career

Just keep in mind, it’s career average and you’re getting the player at their peak, so there are plenty of guys from the list that were averaging above 10ppg at their peak

If I have time I’ll expand the list to 11 and 12ppg and see how much of a difference it makes. The trick is finding guys that didn’t score much early or late in their careers that lowered their averages enough to make them qualify

[FlyingArrow]

Create a 15 man roster that could be a contender

Yes.

You're getting peak versions of 15 players and going up against regular rosters in the rest of the league. Obviously, this won't beat any constructed roster of all-time greats, but you can get all-star versions of a lot of players. I'm going to take 10 all-stars, and as all-stars, we're generally getting one of their top-scoring seasons. We're going to reach pretty far back into the past, though. We have available this long list:

Spoiler:

All-Star Dikembe Mutombo C 16.6 PPG
All-Star Kyle Korver SG 12.1 PPG
All-Star Joakim Noah C 12.6 PPG
All-Star Tyson Chandler C 11.3 PPG
All-Star Rajon Rondo PG 13.7
All-Star Roy Hibbert C 12.8 PPG
All-Star Ben Wallace PF/C 9.7 PPG
All-Star Jamaal Magloire PF/C 13.6 PPG
All-Star Antonio Davis PF/C 13.7 PPG (advanced stats are so bad he shouldn't be listed here)
All-Star Dale Davis PF/C 11.7 PPG (pre-AllStar year)
All-Star Jayson Williams PF/C 12.9 PPG
All-Star Tyrone Hill 13.8 PPG
All-Star BJ Armstrong PG 14.8 PPG
All-Star Charles Oakley PF/C 11.8 PPG
All-Star Mark Eaton C 9.7 PPG
All-Star Mark Jackson PG 16.9 PPG
All-Star Rickey Green PG 13.2 PPG
All-Star Kermit Washington PF 13.4 PPG
All-Star Don Buse PG 8.0 PPG, leads league in steals and assists (12.5 in ABA)
All-Star Paul Silas PF 17.5 PG
All-Star Jim Price 16.1 PPG
All-Star Butch Beard PG 15.4 PPG

Out of that bunch, these are the All-Stars that I'm taking as starters:

PG Mark Jackson 16.9 PPG
SG Kyle Korver 12.1 PPG
SF
PF Paul Silas 17.5 PPG
C Dikembe Mutombo 16.6 PPG

Spoiler:

Here are some Paul Silas highlights, since he's someone many of us aren't familiar with, just to show his play style:

Watch on YouTube

First off the bench we have these All-Stars:
PG Rajon Rondo, 13.7 PPG
SG (tempted to put BJ Armstrong here. 14.8 PPG. 44% on 3s. Only 3.9 ast, so he plays more like a SG anyway, and Rondo's length could let him guard the opposing SG on defense. But we'll go with a couple of non-all stars here instead.)
SF
PF Kermit Washington 13.4 PPG
C Joakim Noah 12.6 PPG

Third string, we still haven't run out of All-Stars:
PG Don Buse, led league in steals and assists
SG
SF
PF Charles Oakley, 11.8 PPG
C Roy Hibbert, 12.8 PPG

I've focused on offense, because most of these guys made their names for defense anyway. So we're going to get a solid defensive team without even trying. So I'm taking the most offense I can get out of these All-Star seasons. Unfortunately, we don't have all-star wings available other than Korver, so we'll go with the best available to fill those in. Horry (12ppg), Bullock (12.1ppg), and Battier (10.1ppg) at SF. Korver starting at SG and then Bruce Bowen (7.1ppg, 44% 3s) and Jae Crowder (13.9ppg). Actually, I'm going to start Crowder just to maximize scoring in the starting lineup. Plenty of spacing from all of the wing options.

There may not be a #1 scoring option among them, but when you throw 10 all-star players at any team, the All-Stars will find an advantage. None of these names scream "unbeatable", but remember they're all at their peak, and you get almost a whole team of All-Stars. This team's bench units will absolutely dominate bench units of any opponent.

Summary:

PG: Mark Jackson 16.9ppg / Rajon Rondo / Don Buse*
SG: Jae Crowder 13.9ppg / Kyle Korver / Bruce Bowen
SF: Robert Horry 12ppg / Reggie Bullock / Shane Battier
PF: Paul Silas 17.5ppg / Kermit Washington / Charles Oakley
C: Dikembe Mutombo* 13.4ppg / Joakim Noah / Roy Hibbert

* Mutombo's top ppg season was his rookie season and very inefficient. We're taking 1997-98, which was his top offensive season considering both volume and efficiency (i.e. OWS).

* Buse is a surprise find for me here. I hadn't heard of him before. I'd be tempted to start him because he led the league in both assists and steals, plus he demonstrated a 3pt shot the year before in the ABA. That ABA season was his best year, but I was assuming his ABA season wasn't an option. He only averaged about 8ppg his NBA all-star season, and we need offense here! So 3rd string it is.

Starters play starter minutes and provide a total of 73.7ppg. Assume first bench unit plays 60% of their normal minutes, so they provide 60% of their normal scoring output. First bench unit provides a total of 40.0ppg. That's 113.7ppg... plenty of scoring here, considering that we'll have a dominant defense. And not counting whatever the 3rd string adds in.

As far as how the team works... we have all-stars going 3 deep at PG, PF, and C. And we have plenty of shooting and defense at the wings.

Rondo and Buse both led the league in assists during the chosen seasons, and Mark Jackson is top-5 all-time in career assists. The point guards will find the open men. Silas has 4.3apg, Horry has 4.0apg. Lots of ball movement here.

All of the post players have reputations for their defense, but we're getting them all at their offensive peaks. All of the wing players can hit 3pt shots. Several of them have good defensive reputations, with Bowen being one of the all-time best perimeter defenders.

With the depth on this team, we also plan to run hard. Push the pace, sub as early as necessary because this team doesn't suffer that much drop-off as you go to the 2nd and 3rd strings. If the pace forces the opponent to go to their bench early, that's an automatic advantage for us.

===

Edit: I just realized I started scouring old All-Star games looking for people who were overlooked, and then forgot to include the more recent guys that people were already talking about. I should've put Draymond in there as either 1st or 2nd string PF. The version with 14ppg and 39% 3pt shooting. But I put enough time into this already - not going to go back and edit it.

[BK_2020]

No

[76ersForLife]

Mutombo
Rodman
Ingles
Craig Ehlo
Craig Hodges

Bench
Draymond
Bruce bowen
Ben Wallace
Cooper
Bellinelli
Korver
Raja Bell
Steve Kerr
Patty Mills
Ac green

Coach Pat Riley

[BlackThought]

10 no, can probably do it with 15ppg

[FlyingArrow]

I think people are underestimating the importance of the bench. Maybe I'm extra sensitive to it, having seen the Sixers get tossed more than once due to having no suitable backup for Embiid. But when you have 3 all-stars in your bench unit, you can exploit any regular team's bench unit like there's no tomorrow. See my long post above.

Typical championship team is going to have a superstar, a couple of other all-stars, good roleplayers, and a decent bench. The restrictions here mean you're getting no superstar, but 3 all-stars, good roleplayers, and an AMAZING bench. With 3 all-stars on the bench, that will make up for not having a superstar in the starting lineup.

Consider last year's champs and their "next five" (based on MPG... Looney actually started 80 games but only played 21mpg):
Gary Payton II
Damion Lee
Andre Iguodala
Otto Porter Jr
Kevon Looney

Contrast that with the first five off the bench for the sub-10ppg all-stars:
Rondo (all-star)
Korver (all-star)
Bullock
Kermit Washington (all-star)
Noah (all-star)

Not 4 guys whose names scare you, but they all played at an all-star level for at least a season... and that's the version that's playing.

[WillyJakkz]

Here's my 10ppg Contender. Going a different route and fit as I believe you need someone with the ability to put up huge numbers when given the opportunity and or the correct system has a better chance than an All Defensive w/ some 3 team who I believe will have a very hard time.


Coach Mike D'Antoni: Built this squad to run his system and feel like this is a good group of guys who could contend.


PG Jose Calderon: He's the table setter mainly and although he's mostly a cone defensively, offensively he can hit the 3 and run a team effectively enough to be a threat out there.


SG Rudy Fernandez: Spanish Mamba is the one guy who can legit and consistently create his own shot which is huge for a team come PO time.


SF Robert Horry: Already know this is my ultimate 3&D guy who can finish above the rim as well as drain the clutch 3 baby!


PF Draymond Green: All Around 3&D guy who can initiate the offense but best used doing that in spurts not as the primary ball handler.


C Andrew Bogut: I feel he's the best option as he could generate his own post offense. He could defend, rebound, pass, and was a great finisher at the rim and would be fantastic catching lobs with this team.

[Roddy B for 3]

Joakim Noah(28)/Boris Diaw(12)/Draymond Green(8)
Green(23)/Robert Horry(12)/Dennis Rodman(13)
Kyle Korver(29)/Rodman(19)
Rajon Rondo(8)/Jose Calderon(22)//Marco Belineli(18)
Calderon(8)/Rajon Rondo(20)/Shaun Livingston(20)

Deep bench(no order):
Bruce Bowen
Steve Kerr
Tyson Chandler
Shane Battier
Avery Johnson

Erick Spolstra as HC
Phil Jackson as AC

Essentially:
Noah, Green, Korver, Calderon, Rondo
6th Rodman, Beli, Livingston, Diaw, Horry
And 5 GOAT role players