Can Jokic finish top 10 all time without a championship?

[FJS]

Jokic has not played with all-star... but he plays/played with above average players.

Jamal Murray, Michael Porter JR, Aaron Gordon are good players

He has played with Jerami Grant, Malik Beasley, Jsuf Nurkic, Paul Millsap, Danilo Gallinari, Vanderbilt, Barton, Harris... some of them before they became better players, other being over the hill... but he had talent around... other thing is their GM maintained them, or they can't pay for everyone.

[threethehardway]

Basketball fans and media are short-sighted.

A championship is an organizational achievement. It's not a result of play on the court, play on the court is just the final process.

To win a championship means there was great coaching, acquisition of championship level players, a great training staff, and a whole lotta luck.

Jokic has more than done his part.

He already better than several top 10 players on people's top 10 list.

[FJS]

And in topic, I don't think he can go as top 10.
A player as Karl Malone went further in playoffs, and a few times, have 2 MVP as well, longevity, accolades... and he is not, so I can't expect Nikola being if he finish without it, although he is still young and can improve it.

[CobraCommander]

I mean he might be objectively one of the 10 most talented basketball players ever but he's never going to be top 10 in anyone's personal opinion without a title.

I do think he'll win a title eventually in his career, but probably not on the Nuggets. There isn't much indication from this franchise that they're going to surround Jokic with a team that's good enough to feasibly compete for a title any time soon.

This 100%. Jokic is in an era that has less defense and more shooting but there isn’t a reason why a man with his skill set and size wouldn’t be a top player in any era...

And honestly you can make an argument for why Curry, KD, Trae and any other fast and frail player with an amazing jump shot would have been less effective if players could step underneath you when you shoot or hand check you when have the ball etc...

or even guys like Luka and Harden would have been less effective for similar reasons....just the physicality of the game and the pace of play would have limited their effectiveness in other eras..

.and maybe jordan would have been something less than the goat if he was playing in an era where his physical gifts were less of a premium and his outside shooting was more important...

who knows...

but there is NO question a Jokic is past -present - and future proof....HUGE and exceptionally skilled never goes out of style

[Cubbies2120]

And in topic, I don't think he can go as top 10.
A player as Karl Malone went further in playoffs, and a few times, have 2 MVP as well, longevity, accolades... and he is not, so I can't expect Nikola being if he finish without it, although he is still young and can improve it.

Yeah I think the assumption to a thread like this is he wins at LEAST one more MVP, if not 2 more.

As it stands, if he ends up with 2 MVPs and 0 rings? Of course not.

4 MVPs and 0 rings due to key injuries? Debatable top 10.

4 MVPs and 0 rings while having a healthy team...not top 10.

[Chanel Bomber]

No.

Everyone in the top 10 has won multiple titles, it would be a joke to place a non-title winner among them.

I mentioned it in the other thread on our board.

I really push back on this (fairly recent) trend according to which results no longer matter.

"It doesn't matter whether or not Messi wins the World Cup, his legacy is already cemented". And so on and so forth. No. Winning matters. Winning the biggest trophy in your sport matters.

And yes, basketball is a team sport. And some players have tougher circumstances so some championships weigh more than others. I value Hakeem and Dirk's championship far more than Durant's, for instance. You generally have a chance to break through once in your career, even with sub-optimal conditions. Some fail, some succeed.

You have to at least win one. Wilt "only" has 2 and he's top 10, West only has 1 and he's probably top 15, so the amount of rings doesn't necessarily matter so much. But you have to win at least one to be in the conversation. Even my guy.

[BelgradeNugget]

Jordan won without an all-star teammate in 1991 and 1998

To be precise Pippen was multiple all-star in his prime, all star in 1990, all nba-defense 1991 and the only reason he wasn't all-star in 1998 was because he started season injured (played 44 games that year).
BTW players selected in front of him in 1991 were Hersey Hawkins, Ricky Pierce...
Dennis Rodman was all-star in 1990, still in his prime.

LeBron did it in 2016, Duncan in 2003, Hakeem back to back in 1994 and 1995.

Kyrie Irving was all-star in 2013, 2014, 2015, and Kevin Love was all-star in 2011, 2012, 2014, both in their prime.

Hakeem back to back in 1994 and 1995.

In 1995 Hakeem had Clyde Drexler, multiple all-star (in 1994, 1996)

Duncan in 2003, Hakeem in 1994

That is it.

[CobraCommander]

Basketball fans and media are short-sighted.

A championship is an organizational achievement. It's not a result of play on the court, play on the court is just the final process.

To win a championship means there was great coaching, acquisition of championship level players, a great training staff, and a whole lotta luck.

Jokic has more than done his part.

He already better than several top 10 players on people's top 10 list.

I might agree but who are these several players in top 10 jokic is better than?

Spoiler:

I kinda already agree that he is top 10 but I just can’t say it without winning at the highest level...

[Bmaasse]

Jordan won without an all-star teammate in 1991 and 1998

To be precise Pippen was multiple all-star in his prime, all star in 1990, all nba-defense 1991 and the only reason he wasn't all-star in 1998 was because he started season injured (played 44 games that year).
BTW players selected in front of him in 1991 were Hersey Hawkins, Ricky Pierce...
Dennis Rodman was all-star in 1990, still in his prime.

LeBron did it in 2016, Duncan in 2003, Hakeem back to back in 1994 and 1995.

Kyrie Irving was all-star in 2013, 2014, 2015, and Kevin Love was all-star in 2011, 2012, 2014, both in their prime.

Hakeem back to back in 1994 and 1995.

In 1995 Hakeem had Clyde Drexler, multiple all-star (in 1994, 1996)

Duncan in 2003, Hakeem in 1994

That is it.

Hey buddy, as a long time Bucks fan I can't allow that Ricky Pierce slander to go unchecked. Just saying. That is all.

[threethehardway]

Who is Jokic not better than offensively in the hypothetical top 10?

He's better than Bird.

He's better Kobe.

He's better than Hakeem.

He's better than Wilt.

He's better than Duncan.

He's better than Giannis.

He's better than Bill Russell.

He's up there with MJ, LeBron, Kareem, Shaq, Magic and Curry as an offensive player.

And if you can put Curry, Shaq, and Larry Bird on the top 10 when they never ever were great defensive players, I don't wanna hear it. I don't care.

That's on coaching and management to cover up whatever defensive deficiencies that exist.

Then you have to decide does Jokic give you a better chance of winning a ring vs. other players in terms of career value.

How many wins does he add each season.

The best seasons he put up were loss seasons where he dragged his team to the playoffs when they shouldn't have been there.

I'll take Jokic over anybody but Curry, Giannis, MJ, Kareem, Shaq and LeBron without hesitation.

He's a GOAT level player, I don't care if he never wins a ring.

Jokic is better than majority of the top 10 that people have on their list as an individual talent.

Y'all just care about legacy and rings too damn much like that matters to how great a player is.

[AleksandarN]

God no. He will need to win a chip or more if he wants to cement his place in the top 10 of all time. Why is this even a discussion

[MartyConlonOnTheRun]

I'm not a RINGZ guy. it is so f-ing hard to win 1 championship let alone multiple.
But if you are Top 10 talent and healthy during your career, by definition you should be able to out your team in a position to win a championship (or at least a puncher's chance). If he ends up losing to super teams in the finals (like malone losing to a top 5 player in Jordan), fine. But if he is getting knocked out multiple times to meh (relative to championship winners of the past) teams, he shouldn't sniff the top 10.

So far, I don't see any "the one that got away" where he was a missed shot away that changed the course of history.
2022 - Lost in First Round in a gentleman's sweep. Granted it was to the champs, but these were not the juggernaut Warriors.
2021 - Swept by the Suns in second round
2020 - Lost 4-1 to the Bubble Lakers in WCF
2019 - Lost to Portland in second round

I think he wins a championship eventually (or at least goes to the finals), but I don't think you look at that and be like "Man, his playoff streak highlights he was a top 10 player that just got unlucky"

[Bmaasse]

Who is Jokic not better than offensively in the hypothetical top 10?

He's better than Bird.

He's better Kobe.

He's better than Hakeem.

He's better than Wilt.

He's better than Duncan.

He's better than Giannis.

He's better than Bill Russell.

He's up there with MJ, LeBron, Kareem, Shaq, Magic and Curry as an offensive player.

And if you can put Curry, Shaq, and Larry Bird on the top 10 when they never ever were great defensive players, I don't wanna hear it. I don't care.

That's on coaching and management to cover up whatever defensive deficiencies that exist.

Then you have to decide does Jokic give you a better chance of winning a ring vs. other players in terms of career value.

How many wins does he add each season.

The best seasons he put up were loss seasons where he dragged his team to the playoffs when they shouldn't have been there.

I'll take Jokic over anybody but Curry, Giannis, MJ, Kareem, Shaq and LeBron without hesitation.

He's a GOAT level player, I don't care if he never wins a ring.

Jokic is better than majority of the top 10 that people have on their list as an individual talent.

Y'all just care about legacy and rings too damn much like that matters to how great a player is.

How old are you? Just curious.

[Dubnation]

Who is Jokic not better than offensively in the hypothetical top 10?

He's better than Bird.

He's better Kobe.

He's better than Hakeem.

He's better than Wilt.

He's better than Duncan.

He's better than Giannis.

He's better than Bill Russell.

He's up there with MJ, LeBron, Kareem, Shaq, Magic and Curry as an offensive player.

And if you can put Curry, Shaq, and Larry Bird on the top 10 when they never ever were great defensive players, I don't wanna hear it. I don't care.

That's on coaching and management to cover up whatever defensive deficiencies that exist.

Then you have to decide does Jokic give you a better chance of winning a ring vs. other players in terms of career value.

How many wins does he add each season.

The best seasons he put up were loss seasons where he dragged his team to the playoffs when they shouldn't have been there.

I'll take Jokic over anybody but Curry, Giannis, MJ, Kareem, Shaq and LeBron without hesitation.

He's a GOAT level player, I don't care if he never wins a ring.

Jokic is better than majority of the top 10 that people have on their list as an individual talent.

Y'all just care about legacy and rings too damn much like that matters to how great a player is.

How old are you? Just curious.

You actually beat me to asking this question....

[Sgt Major]

Duncan won a ring in '03 where he had no all star teammates.

He had Parker, Ginobili and Robinson, but none of them were even close to their peak levels at that time.

He ended up winning more rings of course, but yes I'd expect him to get them ONE ring with no all-star teammates if he's dominant enough to win 4 MVP awards.

Yeah, but Ginobili, Parker and Robinson were even then faaaaaaaaaaaaar above where MPJ, Murray and AG are at this point in time.

In 2003? Idk, I'd take at least Murray over either of the guards there and DRob isn't debatable since he was on his last legs.

Bubble Murray - sure. Post-injury Murray - no way.

Have you seen his games lately?

[Rich Michmond]

Jordan won without an all-star teammate in 1991 and 1998

To be precise Pippen was multiple all-star in his prime, all star in 1990, all nba-defense 1991 and the only reason he wasn't all-star in 1998 was because he started season injured (played 44 games that year).
BTW players selected in front of him in 1991 were Hersey Hawkins, Ricky Pierce...
Dennis Rodman was all-star in 1990, still in his prime.

LeBron did it in 2016, Duncan in 2003, Hakeem back to back in 1994 and 1995.

Kyrie Irving was all-star in 2013, 2014, 2015, and Kevin Love was all-star in 2011, 2012, 2014, both in their prime.

Hakeem back to back in 1994 and 1995.

In 1995 Hakeem had Clyde Drexler, multiple all-star (in 1994, 1996)

Duncan in 2003, Hakeem in 1994

That is it.

Dirk in 2011, Rick Barry in 1975. Technically, Giannis in 2021, Ben Wallace in 2004, Elvin Hayes in 1978, and... Tony Parker in 2014 but I'd agree the last four examples do not really count as they had teammates playing on an all-star level who just were not selected to play in the ASG.

[BelgradeNugget]

Dirk in 2011, Rick Barry in 1975. Technically, Giannis in 2021, Ben Wallace in 2004, Elvin Hayes in 1978, and... Tony Parker in 2014 but I'd agree the last four examples do not really count as they had teammates playing on an all-star level who just were not selected to play in the ASG.

Let's rise a bar a little bit. Player that won championship without a player that was all-star, or all-nba selection prior to winning, but still in his prime.

[MrBigShot]

I don't think he can even finish top 20 without a championship. Some of his competition is still playing. Giannis, Steph, KD, Luka, and then obviously LeBron has cemented himself as top 2.

[KGtabake]

Νο.

[cupcakesnake]

KG, Oscar, and Jerry West clinched titles late in their career to boost their argument for being in the top 10. These 3 are cuspy top 10 players that occasionally make peoples lists but you don't see it that often.

After that we have Karl Malone as a consensus top 20 guy. Steve Nash, Stockton and Charles Barkley as top 30 guys.

So basically Karl Malone is the most highly regarded non-champion, and Jokic has already reached a higher peak than Malone ever did.