The case for Curry and Giannis in the All-Time Top 10

[zimpy27]

The RGM comparison board is filled by people who are scared to talk about Curry in an honest way. I wouldn't put much stock in what they have to say.

Maybe they do talk about him on an honest way, but you are too biased to recognize it?

After Curry led possibly the most inexperienced roster of the past 40 years to a championship disposing of the rest of the First Team All-NBA along the way, led the team to 3 successive 67+ win seasons, the regular season wins record, the playoffs wins record, received a unanimous MVP—and in that list you mention they placed him behind Chris Paul who has won what again? set what records again?

I am FAR more objective than a lot of that board. If any of them prior to 2022 gave Curry a decent shot of winning another title I'd like to see evidence of it.

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[TheLand13]

I'll just post it here


Tier 1
1. Michael Jordan (dominated the poll, 75% of voters ranked him as #1.)

Tier 2
2. Lebron James (13% of voters ranked him as #1)
3. Kareem Abdul-Jabbar (7% of voters ranked him as #1)

Tier 3
4. Magic Johnson

Tier 4
5. Bill Russell (most polarizing player in the poll. While most voters (93%) put him in their top 12, his ranking was all over the place)
6. Wilt Chamberlain (just like with Russell, highly polarizing even though 93% put him in their top 12)
7. Larry Bird (extremely close margin between Bird and Duncan, their order could be flipped with one vote)
8. Tim Duncan

Tier 5
9. Shaquille O'Neal

Tier 6
10. Hakeem Olajuwon
11. Kobe Bryant (3rd most polarizing player after Russell and Wilt, 81% put him in their top 12)

Tier 7
12. Stephen Curry (72% put him in their top 12)



Kobe
15x All-NBA
12x All-Defensive
2x Finals MVP
1x MVP


Hakeem
12x All-NBA
9x All-Defensive
2x DPOY
2x Finals MVP
1x MVP


Steph
8x All-NBA
1x Finals MVP
2x MVP


Kobe got 11 All-NBA 1st Team, Hakeem got 6 All-NBA 1st Team(only 1 Center per year compare to 2 slots with Forwards and Guards) and Steph got 4 All-NBA 1st Team. Curry got no argument to be in the Top 10.. for now. He's still playing so we'll see.

I’m sorry by this is a very bad argument. How many all NBA teams Steph has compared to Kobe is irrelevant. Context is a thing and the moment you fail to apply it is the moment your argument falls apart.

[Homer38]

The RGM comparison board is filled by people who are scared to talk about Curry in an honest way. I wouldn't put much stock in what they have to say.

Maybe they do talk about him on an honest way, but you are too biased to recognize it?

After Curry led possibly the most inexperienced roster of the past 40 years to a championship disposing of the rest of the First Team All-NBA along the way, led the team to 3 successive 67+ win seasons, the regular season wins record, the playoffs wins record, received a unanimous MVP—and in that list you mention they placed him behind Chris Paul who has won what again? set what records again?

I am FAR more objective than a lot of that board. If any of them prior to 2022 gave Curry a decent shot of winning another title I'd like to see evidence of it.

It's still ridiculous that you say that after all these years, since Harden, Davis and LBJ were in a classic one man team... And of course Gasol was not of caliber with the 3 other players.....The spurs would have given a bigger challenge than the rockets, that's for sure...The rockets were overmatched like crazy

[One Last Shot]

The case for Curry is very simple.

Name the greatest NBA team. The Warriors.
Who is the greatest player on that team? Curry.

One can go into other details but the above alone should be sufficient.

Any top ten list that does not have Curry on it will be a joke. It would be like making a list of the top 10 100 meter dash sprinters in history and not having Usain Bolt on it.

Depends if you mean greatest regular season team (in which he was the best player) or greatest team ever (warriors 2017/18 winners are at least in the debate), where he absolutely wasn’t the best player…

The 2017 and 2018 teams without Steph had a 57% win rate. Steph finished the 2018 season after the playoffs with the highest plus-minus in the league—despite missing a third of the games played.

2017 Warriors was a 73-9 Core Team who recruited another Top 3 Player when they already got another Top 3 player because they got embarrassed in the NBA Finals by the best Player in the world. They also got the 2nd best shooter in the NBA History, a DPOY and one of the best 2-way wing who won the 2015 Finals MVP. That's not the greatest team in history, it"s the most shameless NBA team ever.

[Lalouie]

There are too many differences between eras to make comparisons fair. There were times when the rules favored the big man most. There were times that favored the iso-players. These are times when shooters are favored most. Then some guys played on stronger teams or teams that were better tailored to their strengths and weaknesses, for which more credit should be given to their team.

So can we boil down the selection to ten players using a simple method?

The game of basketball requires five players to be on the court per team. Pick the two best players in each position. Those are your Top 10 of All-Time. If Steph and Giannis end up in your Top 2 guys for the Point Guard and Power Forward position, that is their case. Simple is sometimes best and fairest.

Point Guard:
Oscar Robertson, Magic Johnson, John Stockton, Isaiah Thomas, Steve Nash, Steph Curry.

Shooting Guard:
Jerry West, Michael Jordan, Kobe Bryant, Dwyane Wade, James Harden.

Small Forward:
John Havlicek, Larry Bird, Julius Erwing, Lebron James, Kevin Durant, Luka Doncic.

Power Forward:
Karl Malone, Charles Barkley, Tim Duncan, Kevin Garnett, Dirk Nowitzki, Giannis Antetokounmpo.

(The Power Forward position is giving me the most trouble. It is really hard to choose two here compared to other positions. Malone and Barkley played PF for most of their careers but did not win a ring. Duncan separates himself from the others with 5 rings but played PF for half his career and had better teams. KG won less rings but has the best statistics. Dirk was a below average defender but provides the best offense and spacing.)

Center:
Bill Russell, Wilt Chamberlain, Kareem Abdul-Jabbar, Hakeem Olajuwon, Shaquille O'neale, Nikola Jokic.

So who are your Top 2 in each position?

to be a TOP10 GOAT (i think all top10s are goats in their own way), MY last criteria is "who has the biggest legacy". who contributed the most to the game,,,,,,because you can forget everything that requires era comparisons. the one thing that traverses simple hard numbers is the legacy they leave behind.

and if i go by your thread TITLE - "all time top10", i think that overrides position as a criteria. if it's "by position" then say "by position".

so not going by position and in no special order
russell,,,wilt,,,kareem,,,oscar,,,magic,,,bird,,,drJ,,,mj,,,lebron,,,
and you can pick between kobe, shaq, west, curry

i hated leaving west out but by my criteria he had the least resume (mr.clutch and the logo are not enough imo)
i don't care for lebron but he's had a massive presense in the millenium
giannis doesn't cut it based on that as well. he'd have to add a couple of rings to make me feel his athleticism is enuf to get into the club because everyone else has more than just skills and numbers

if by position
kareem, russell
tim, giannis
bird, drJ
mj, kobe
magic, oscar

[WarriorGM]

After Curry led possibly the most inexperienced roster of the past 40 years to a championship disposing of the rest of the First Team All-NBA along the way, led the team to 3 successive 67+ win seasons, the regular season wins record, the playoffs wins record, received a unanimous MVP—and in that list you mention they placed him behind Chris Paul who has won what again? set what records again?

I am FAR more objective than a lot of that board. If any of them prior to 2022 gave Curry a decent shot of winning another title I'd like to see evidence of it.

Being objective starts with recognizing that Hakeem 94, Duncan 2003 and Dirk 2011 were with significantly worse rosters than Curry 2015, and in Dirk's case, against infinitely harder competition, and that Curry's run 2017-2019 was with a very stacked team, that's why his achievements in 21 and 22 make a difference in ranking from what he was in 2020 to what he is now.

Did those guys have significantly worse rosters? Then why did they all have better odds of winning a championship at the beginning of the season? Lots of hindsight bias being introduced.

[Vox Populi]

After Curry led possibly the most inexperienced roster of the past 40 years to a championship disposing of the rest of the First Team All-NBA along the way, led the team to 3 successive 67+ win seasons, the regular season wins record, the playoffs wins record, received a unanimous MVP—and in that list you mention they placed him behind Chris Paul who has won what again? set what records again?

I am FAR more objective than a lot of that board. If any of them prior to 2022 gave Curry a decent shot of winning another title I'd like to see evidence of it.

Being objective starts with recognizing that Hakeem 94, Duncan 2003 and Dirk 2011 were with significantly worse rosters than Curry 2015, and in Dirk's case, against infinitely harder competition, and that Curry's run 2017-2019 was with a very stacked team, that's why his achievements in 21 and 22 make a difference in ranking from what he was in 2020 to what he is now.

Did those guys have significantly worse rosters? Then why did they all have better odds of winning a championship at the beginning of the season? Lots of hindsight bias being introduced.

You bring up an interesting point about pre-season odds for each of these teams in their title winning years.

I did not know the answer so I looked it up.

San Antonio Spurs (2002-03): +1100
Houston Rockets (1993-94): +1200
Dallas Mavericks (2010-11): +2000
Golden State Warriors (2014-15): +2800

[Homer38]

After Curry led possibly the most inexperienced roster of the past 40 years to a championship disposing of the rest of the First Team All-NBA along the way, led the team to 3 successive 67+ win seasons, the regular season wins record, the playoffs wins record, received a unanimous MVP—and in that list you mention they placed him behind Chris Paul who has won what again? set what records again?

I am FAR more objective than a lot of that board. If any of them prior to 2022 gave Curry a decent shot of winning another title I'd like to see evidence of it.

Being objective starts with recognizing that Hakeem 94, Duncan 2003 and Dirk 2011 were with significantly worse rosters than Curry 2015, and in Dirk's case, against infinitely harder competition, and that Curry's run 2017-2019 was with a very stacked team, that's why his achievements in 21 and 22 make a difference in ranking from what he was in 2020 to what he is now.

Did those guys have significantly worse rosters? Then why did they all have better odds of winning a championship at the beginning of the season? Lots of hindsight bias being introduced.

The title odds were not high for the warriors because Curry was not a MVP caliber player before that year.It was a huge factor.And also the change for Mark Jackson to Steve Kerr was bigger than many thought at this time

[WarriorGM]

Being objective starts with recognizing that Hakeem 94, Duncan 2003 and Dirk 2011 were with significantly worse rosters than Curry 2015, and in Dirk's case, against infinitely harder competition, and that Curry's run 2017-2019 was with a very stacked team, that's why his achievements in 21 and 22 make a difference in ranking from what he was in 2020 to what he is now.

Did those guys have significantly worse rosters? Then why did they all have better odds of winning a championship at the beginning of the season? Lots of hindsight bias being introduced.

You bring up an interesting point about pre-season odds for each of these teams in their title winning years.

I did not know the answer so I looked it up.

San Antonio Spurs (2002-03): +1100
Houston Rockets (1993-94): +1200
Dallas Mavericks (2010-11): +2000
Golden State Warriors (2014-15): +2800

If the Warriors didn't win a championship afterward or do anything else notable, that 2015 version of the team would be a more obvious prime candidate for weakest team to win a championship.

You won't learn things like that reading the comparison board because their heads are stuck in the sand and are not willing to use the best arguments. I on the other hand will use stronger arguments.

The title odds were not high for the warriors because Curry was not a MVP caliber player before that year.It was a huge factor.And also the change for Mark Jackson to Steve Kerr was bigger than many thought at this time

Curry's advanced numbers in 2014 are comparable to Nash's MVP years. If Curry wasn't an MVP candidate, he should have been. I notice on the comparison board there is a post that is suggesting Curry's 2014 was only an All-Star level year. You're free to look at the data and figure out who to believe.

[Mavrelous]

After Curry led possibly the most inexperienced roster of the past 40 years to a championship disposing of the rest of the First Team All-NBA along the way, led the team to 3 successive 67+ win seasons, the regular season wins record, the playoffs wins record, received a unanimous MVP—and in that list you mention they placed him behind Chris Paul who has won what again? set what records again?

I am FAR more objective than a lot of that board. If any of them prior to 2022 gave Curry a decent shot of winning another title I'd like to see evidence of it.

Being objective starts with recognizing that Hakeem 94, Duncan 2003 and Dirk 2011 were with significantly worse rosters than Curry 2015, and in Dirk's case, against infinitely harder competition, and that Curry's run 2017-2019 was with a very stacked team, that's why his achievements in 21 and 22 make a difference in ranking from what he was in 2020 to what he is now.

Did those guys have significantly worse rosters? Then why did they all have better odds of winning a championship at the beginning of the season? Lots of hindsight bias being introduced.

The best west team had an upset against the Clippers (who were upset by the Rockets later) and Cleveland reached the finals w/o their 2nd and 3rd best players...
And this is dishonest representation, because Curry established himself in 2015, he was nowhere near ATG before that, and this is why the odds were low, you know, a representation a biased fan of a player can come up with.

[Vox Populi]

to be a TOP10 GOAT (i think all top10s are goats in their own way), MY last criteria is "who has the biggest legacy". who contributed the most to the game,,,,,,because you can forget everything that requires era comparisons. the one thing that traverses simple hard numbers is the legacy they leave behind.

and if i go by your thread TITLE - "all time top10", i think that overrides position as a criteria. if it's "by position" then say "by position".

so not going by position and in no special order
russell,,,wilt,,,kareem,,,oscar,,,magic,,,bird,,,drJ,,,mj,,,lebron,,,
and you can pick between kobe, shaq, west, curry

i hated leaving west out but by my criteria he had the least resume (mr.clutch and the logo are not enough imo)
i don't care for lebron but he's had a massive presense in the millenium
giannis does cut it based on that as well. he'd have to add a couple of rings to make me feel his athleticism is enuf to get into the club because everyone else has more than just skills and numbers

if by position
kareem, russell
tim, giannis
bird, drJ
mj, kobe
magic, oscar

You bring up a good point about legacy.

Is it fair to ask if Julius Erwing's legacy of using an athletic playing style to attack the rim has been overshadowed by Michael Jordan? And if Oscar Robertson's legacy has been overshadowed by Russell Westbrook averaging a triple-double in four separate seasons? Steph Curry may now have a larger legacy than both Oscar and Julius.

The reason I am trying to interject position into this discussion is because the playing environment in the NBA has favored the big man for the majority of its existence. One could make a case for having 7 big men in the Top 10: Russell, Wilt, Kareem, Hakeem, Shaq, Duncan and KG, which only leaves 3 spots for the others. Yet some of these older players are not very portable into the present and may not even be better than Jokic today.

[art_tatum]

Wtf has Oscar done to be ahead of curry or even sniffing the top 10? Lol.

Triple doubles on .500 teams in a fast pace era?
1 chip as a role player riding the back of KAJ on the bucks? Go on check his playoffs and finals numbers that year.

[WarriorGM]

Being objective starts with recognizing that Hakeem 94, Duncan 2003 and Dirk 2011 were with significantly worse rosters than Curry 2015, and in Dirk's case, against infinitely harder competition, and that Curry's run 2017-2019 was with a very stacked team, that's why his achievements in 21 and 22 make a difference in ranking from what he was in 2020 to what he is now.

Did those guys have significantly worse rosters? Then why did they all have better odds of winning a championship at the beginning of the season? Lots of hindsight bias being introduced.

The best west team had an upset against the Clippers (who were upset by the Rockets later) and Cleveland reached the finals w/o their 2nd and 3rd best players...
And this is dishonest representation, because Curry established himself in 2015, he was nowhere near ATG before that, and this is why the odds were low, you know, a representation a biased fan of a player can come up with.

What is the definition of best west team? If it is the team with the best regular season record then the Warriors faced the best west team other than themselves. The results of the playoffs validated the results of the regular season. Indeed the Warriors faced all the highest seeds on their path.

[Homer38]

Did those guys have significantly worse rosters? Then why did they all have better odds of winning a championship at the beginning of the season? Lots of hindsight bias being introduced.

You bring up an interesting point about pre-season odds for each of these teams in their title winning years.

I did not know the answer so I looked it up.

San Antonio Spurs (2002-03): +1100
Houston Rockets (1993-94): +1200
Dallas Mavericks (2010-11): +2000
Golden State Warriors (2014-15): +2800

If the Warriors didn't win a championship afterward or do anything else notable, that 2015 version of the team would be a more obvious prime candidate for weakest team to win a championship.

You won't learn things like that reading the comparison board because their heads are stuck in the sand and are not willing to use the best arguments. I on the other hand will use stronger arguments.

The title odds were not high for the warriors because Curry was not a MVP caliber player before that year.It was a huge factor.And also the change for Mark Jackson to Steve Kerr was bigger than many thought at this time

Curry's advanced numbers in 2014 are comparable to Nash's MVP years. If Curry wasn't an MVP candidate, he should have been. I notice on the comparison board there is a post that is suggesting Curry's 2014 was only an All-Star level year. You're free to look at the data and figure out who to believe.

Maybe but he was still not the caliber of what he become later or what Hakeem or Duncan were before 1994 or 2003,a huge reason why the warriors odds was low

[Mavrelous]

Did those guys have significantly worse rosters? Then why did they all have better odds of winning a championship at the beginning of the season? Lots of hindsight bias being introduced.

The best west team had an upset against the Clippers (who were upset by the Rockets later) and Cleveland reached the finals w/o their 2nd and 3rd best players...
And this is dishonest representation, because Curry established himself in 2015, he was nowhere near ATG before that, and this is why the odds were low, you know, a representation a biased fan of a player can come up with.

What is the definition of best west team? If it is the team with the best regular season record then the Warriors faced the best west team other than themselves. The results of the playoffs validated the results of the regular season. Indeed the Warriors faced all the highest seeds on their path.

The reigning champions, I think we have a clear picture of why you think the comparison board isn't honest about discussing Curry...

[WarriorGM]

You bring up an interesting point about pre-season odds for each of these teams in their title winning years.

I did not know the answer so I looked it up.

San Antonio Spurs (2002-03): +1100
Houston Rockets (1993-94): +1200
Dallas Mavericks (2010-11): +2000
Golden State Warriors (2014-15): +2800

If the Warriors didn't win a championship afterward or do anything else notable, that 2015 version of the team would be a more obvious prime candidate for weakest team to win a championship.

You won't learn things like that reading the comparison board because their heads are stuck in the sand and are not willing to use the best arguments. I on the other hand will use stronger arguments.

The title odds were not high for the warriors because Curry was not a MVP caliber player before that year.It was a huge factor.And also the change for Mark Jackson to Steve Kerr was bigger than many thought at this time

Curry's advanced numbers in 2014 are comparable to Nash's MVP years. If Curry wasn't an MVP candidate, he should have been. I notice on the comparison board there is a post that is suggesting Curry's 2014 was only an All-Star level year. You're free to look at the data and figure out who to believe.

Maybe but he was still not the caliber of what he become later or what Hakeem or Duncan were before 1994 or 2003,a huge reason why the warriors odds was low

Then it is to Curry's credit he improved as much as he did in that time frame. As I've argued elsewhere historically speaking it is rare to see a team with the 2015 Warriors experience profile winning a championship.

[Homer38]

If the Warriors didn't win a championship afterward or do anything else notable, that 2015 version of the team would be a more obvious prime candidate for weakest team to win a championship.

You won't learn things like that reading the comparison board because their heads are stuck in the sand and are not willing to use the best arguments. I on the other hand will use stronger arguments.




Curry's advanced numbers in 2014 are comparable to Nash's MVP years. If Curry wasn't an MVP candidate, he should have been. I notice on the comparison board there is a post that is suggesting Curry's 2014 was only an All-Star level year. You're free to look at the data and figure out who to believe.

Maybe but he was still not the caliber of what he become later or what Hakeem or Duncan were before 1994 or 2003,a huge reason why the warriors odds was low

Then it is to Curry's credit he improved as much as he did in that time frame.

True but this is not the point.The point is why the odds were low before the 2015 season.If the media would know at this time he would be a MVP caliber player,the odds of the warriors would been much higher.The 2015 title odds have nothing to do with the Warriors supporting cast....

[Vox Populi]

Curry

Not Curry

It would be nice if the two of you posted your Top 2 for each position, as the opening post asks.

[Homer38]

Curry

Not Curry

It would be nice if the two of you posted your Top 2 for each position, as the opening post asks.

PG:Magic and Curry
SG:MJ and Kobe
SF:LBJ and Bird
PF:Duncan and KG
C:Russell and KAJ

[Vox Populi]

Not Curry

It would be nice if the two of you posted your Top 2 for each position, as the opening post asks.

PG:Magic and Curry
SG:MJ and Kobe
SF:LBJ and Bird
PF:Duncan and KG
C:Russell and KAJ

Nice. Four of the guys you listed as best seem like the best candidates for the NBA's Mount Rushmore too. A nice thing about Lebron beating Kareem's scoring record is we don't have to debate Russell vs Kareem for Mount Rushmore any longer. My four are now:

- Russell (for his 11 titles)
- A two-face made up of half Magic Johnson and half Larry Bird (for saving the NBA in the 1980s)
- Jordan (the GOAT)
- Lebron (most points scored)