Greater Accomplishment: Lebron's 4 or Duncan's 5?

[iggymcfrack]

Tim Duncan won 5 rings while playing with significantly less talent that anyone with comparable accolades. I love TP and Manu but let's be real, they were probably never top 15 players in the league at the same time as Duncan. And Tim never had to team up with anyone else or force his team to acquiesce to his will. This is easily Timothy Theodore Duncan imo

Hey I love Duncan, but this is very unfair to Manu. He was probably the best perimeter player in the league in 2005. The Spurs were +16.6 with him in the game and -0.6 with him on the bench. In the playoffs, they were +10.3 with him on the floor and -9.6 with him on the bench. In one of the toughest years to score in the history of the NBA, he had a TS% of .652 for the playoffs on 21 PPG. In the Finals, when Parker and Duncan were both stifled by the Bad Boy Pistons, Manu came through shooting 15% better than his superstar teammates including going 8/13 from the field and 5/5 from the line in Game 7 while Duncan and Parker combined to shoot 13/38 and 6/8. The prior informed RAPM had him as the best player in the league that year ahead of Duncan.

[Ito]

Lebron would have won with tony Parker and Manu too and people act like Duncan didn’t win his first ring with David Robinson against an injured knicks team

[jasonxxx102]

Timmy is love and LeBron is hated so the outcome of this is not surprising.

If you took both of their names away I think it's hands down LeBron.

3 different teams, carried way more of the load than Tim, unquestioned best player for every ring. One of the titles was taking down the single greatest regular season team in NBA history after being down 3-1.

I know people on here can't separate their personal gripes from actual basketball.

Or maybe people respect the guy who didn't jump ship to form superteams en route to his rings? Give me a break dude

I'll give him 2016, which was one of the most individually impressive rings ever won. But 2012, superteam facing an experienced Thunder team, 2013 was a Ray Allen shot away from losing, and 2020 was the Bubble ring where AD was arguably better in the run than LBJ. it's not as black and white as you're making it

I literally said I understand that people don't respect LeBron.

It doesn't take away from what I said. I don't care why people do or don't like him. Purely basketball I think LeBrons finals performances are easily better than Duncans

[iggymcfrack]

People get so mad at what LeBron TRIED TO build in Miami that they ignore that it mostly didn't work. Bosh lost a lot of his effectiveness as a 3rd option and Wade only really played close to his previous level for 2 years before starting to lose it due to age and injuries. In reality, LeBron faced better talent in the Finals even in his Miami run, let alone his Cleveland ring where he had to have the best series of all-time to beat a 73-win team. He definitely deserves more credit than a typical run of 4 rings. With that said, Duncan's ring in 2003, beating the Shaq and Kobe Lakers with literally no help is one of the most difficult rings ever to win as well which makes it pretty close. If I say Duncan's '03 ring is worth 2 regular rings, LeBron's '16 ring is worth 2.5 and then Duncan gets half a ring for being Kawhi's sidekick in 2014, that still leaves them even.

[LessEyeTest]

Tim Duncan won 5 rings while playing with significantly less talent that anyone with comparable accolades. I love TP and Manu but let's be real, they were probably never top 15 players in the league at the same time as Duncan. And Tim never had to team up with anyone else or force his team to acquiesce to his will. This is easily Timothy Theodore Duncan imo

Hey I love Duncan, but this is very unfair to Manu. He was probably the best perimeter player in the league in 2005. The Spurs were +16.6 with him in the game and -0.6 with him on the bench. In the playoffs, they were +10.3 with him on the floor and -9.6 with him on the bench. In one of the toughest years to score in the history of the NBA, he had a TS% of .652 for the playoffs on 21 PPG. In the Finals, when Parker and Duncan were both stifled by the Bad Boy Pistons, Manu came through shooting 15% better than his superstar teammates including going 8/13 from the field and 5/5 from the line in Game 7 while Duncan and Parker combined to shoot 13/38 and 6/8. The prior informed RAPM had him as the best player in the league that year ahead of Duncan.

Bingo. The difference between a guy like KG and TD is teammates. KG was a far better basketball PLAYER, TD had better TEAMMATES and thus more success.

[Bornstellar]

Tim Duncan won 5 rings while playing with significantly less talent that anyone with comparable accolades. I love TP and Manu but let's be real, they were probably never top 15 players in the league at the same time as Duncan. And Tim never had to team up with anyone else or force his team to acquiesce to his will. This is easily Timothy Theodore Duncan imo

Hey I love Duncan, but this is very unfair to Manu. He was probably the best perimeter player in the league in 2005. The Spurs were +16.6 with him in the game and -0.6 with him on the bench. In the playoffs, they were +10.3 with him on the floor and -9.6 with him on the bench. In one of the toughest years to score in the history of the NBA, he had a TS% of .652 for the playoffs on 21 PPG. In the Finals, when Parker and Duncan were both stifled by the Bad Boy Pistons, Manu came through shooting 15% better than his superstar teammates including going 8/13 from the field and 5/5 from the line in Game 7 while Duncan and Parker combined to shoot 13/38 and 6/8. The prior informed RAPM had him as the best player in the league that year ahead of Duncan.

I never said otherwise. But like I said, let's not pretend Manu was on the level of a player like Kobe or Wade or Anthony Davis or something. Manu is my favorite player ever and his contributions certainly cannot be understated. But he is also a two-time all-star and only managed All-NBA third team twice in his career. Not to mention you're picking out 1 title year out of 4 he contributed to

[Bornstellar]

Tim Duncan won 5 rings while playing with significantly less talent that anyone with comparable accolades. I love TP and Manu but let's be real, they were probably never top 15 players in the league at the same time as Duncan. And Tim never had to team up with anyone else or force his team to acquiesce to his will. This is easily Timothy Theodore Duncan imo

Hey I love Duncan, but this is very unfair to Manu. He was probably the best perimeter player in the league in 2005. The Spurs were +16.6 with him in the game and -0.6 with him on the bench. In the playoffs, they were +10.3 with him on the floor and -9.6 with him on the bench. In one of the toughest years to score in the history of the NBA, he had a TS% of .652 for the playoffs on 21 PPG. In the Finals, when Parker and Duncan were both stifled by the Bad Boy Pistons, Manu came through shooting 15% better than his superstar teammates including going 8/13 from the field and 5/5 from the line in Game 7 while Duncan and Parker combined to shoot 13/38 and 6/8. The prior informed RAPM had him as the best player in the league that year ahead of Duncan.

Bingo. The difference between a guy like KG and TD is teammates. KG was a far better basketball PLAYER, TD had better TEAMMATES and thus more success.

No he wasn't. KG was never better than Duncan, teammates or not. Duncan routinely raised his game in the playoffs whereas KG routinely shrank. You're losing credibility making ridiculous statements like KG Was a "far better" player. That's just asinine

[dhsilv2]

not easily. 2 of them werent the hardest rings for tim to get individually. in 2007 and 2014 he was not the best player on his team in the series. and lebron accounts for quite a few of the greatest finals perfomances in league history even still. The guy beat the freaking warriors after they steamrolled the whole league for over a year and a half. then the guy wins fmvp at 35 years old.

I still say tim because he had to go through some really good teams to get to the finals, and he only lost there once or twice maybe, but lebrons done some crazy stuff too.

Duncan was the best player in the league in 2007, of course he was the best player on the spurs!

Tony outperformed him in the finals imo, but that could be due to the opponent being so much lesser

If we ignore the impact of being game planned for and defense, I guess. But that's kinda silly. Also it was a 4 game sweep...

[Rendei]

Timmy is love and LeBron is hated so the outcome of this is not surprising.

If you took both of their names away I think it's hands down LeBron.

3 different teams, carried way more of the load than Tim, unquestioned best player for every ring. One of the titles was taking down the single greatest regular season team in NBA history after being down 3-1.

I know people on here can't separate their personal gripes from actual basketball.

Or maybe people respect the guy who didn't jump ship to form superteams en route to his rings? Give me a break dude

I'll give him 2016, which was one of the most individually impressive rings ever won. But 2012, superteam facing an experienced Thunder team, 2013 was a Ray Allen shot away from losing, and 2020 was the Bubble ring where AD was arguably better in the run than LBJ. it's not as black and white as you're making it

I literally said I understand that people don't respect LeBron.

It doesn't take away from what I said. I don't care why people do or don't like him. Purely basketball I think LeBrons finals performances are easily better than Duncans

Lebron literally finished the 2013 Finals with +0 and a ring. He's -86 in the finals for his career.

[SK21209]

Tim Duncan won 5 rings while playing with significantly less talent that anyone with comparable accolades. I love TP and Manu but let's be real, they were probably never top 15 players in the league at the same time as Duncan. And Tim never had to team up with anyone else or force his team to acquiesce to his will. This is easily Timothy Theodore Duncan imo

not easily. 2 of them werent the hardest rings for tim to get individually. in 2007 and 2014 he was not the best player on his team in the series. and lebron accounts for quite a few of the greatest finals perfomances in league history even still. The guy beat the freaking warriors after they steamrolled the whole league for over a year and a half. then the guy wins fmvp at 35 years old.

I still say tim because he had to go through some really good teams to get to the finals, and he only lost there once or twice maybe, but lebrons done some crazy stuff too.

Nah, he definitely was the best player in 2007 and 2014. Doesn't matter if he didn't win Finals MVP or whatever, he was still by far SA's best and most impactful player. And don't forget he was 30 seconds away from winning his 4th Finals MVP at 37

Completely agree with the bolded. Duncan was obviously the best player on the 2007 team, who cares who won Finals MVP in the sweep of the Cavs. Its like saying Deion Branch, not Tom Brady, was the best player on the Super Bowl winning 2004 Pats because Branch won Super Bowl MVP. The Finals were the easiest series of that Spurs playoff run lol. 2014 is trickier, but I still think Duncan is the best. He played 74 games, lead the team in PER and was second in VORP. Kawhi edges him out in some of the advanced stats, but he had a much lower USG% and was the clear third option offensively for most of the season. Similar to 2007, in 2014 obviously showed out in the Finals but the toughest series was actually the WCF against OKC in which Duncan was the clear best player.

[iggymcfrack]

Or maybe people respect the guy who didn't jump ship to form superteams en route to his rings? Give me a break dude

I'll give him 2016, which was one of the most individually impressive rings ever won. But 2012, superteam facing an experienced Thunder team, 2013 was a Ray Allen shot away from losing, and 2020 was the Bubble ring where AD was arguably better in the run than LBJ. it's not as black and white as you're making it

I literally said I understand that people don't respect LeBron.

It doesn't take away from what I said. I don't care why people do or don't like him. Purely basketball I think LeBrons finals performances are easily better than Duncans

Lebron literally finished the 2013 Finals with +0 and a ring. He's -86 in the finals for his career.

You mean the series where he led both teams in PPG, APG, and SPG and led the Heat in RPG? The one where with his team down 10 facing elimination, he scored 16 4th quarter points on 7/11 shooting to get them to OT? The one where he put up 37 points on .698 TS% in Game 7 including the clincher with 0:28 left? You weren't impressed with his on/off that series while he played 43 MPG? Huh. Interesting.

[playoffs]

I wonder how many more rings Tim would have if he had played with guys like Wade, Bosh, Irving, Love, and Davis throughout his career

I also wonder how many more rings Tim would have if his Spurs switched conferences with LeBron's teams.

[PistolPeteJR]

I take Barkley´s 0 over LeBron´s 4. But, I am not biggest fan of LeBron as you might guess.

Glad you saw yourself out with that second sentence.

[SK21209]

People get so mad at what LeBron TRIED TO build in Miami that they ignore that it mostly didn't work. Bosh lost a lot of his effectiveness as a 3rd option and Wade only really played close to his previous level for 2 years before starting to lose it due to age and injuries. In reality, LeBron faced better talent in the Finals even in his Miami run, let alone his Cleveland ring where he had to have the best series of all-time to beat a 73-win team. He definitely deserves more credit than a typical run of 4 rings. With that said, Duncan's ring in 2003, beating the Shaq and Kobe Lakers with literally no help is one of the most difficult rings ever to win as well which makes it pretty close. If I say Duncan's '03 ring is worth 2 regular rings, LeBron's '16 ring is worth 2.5 and then Duncan gets half a ring for being Kawhi's sidekick in 2014, that still leaves them even.

People are going to forget this part if they haven't already. LeBron's Heat were never the unbeatable juggernaut we thought they would be except maybe during that 27 game regular season winning streak. They lost to the Mavs in 2011, almost lost to Boston in 2012, should have lost to the Spurs in 2013 and were obliterated by the Spurs in 2014. I'm not sure how highly I'd rank either of their 2013 or 2013 championship teams against the other champions of the last 10 years.

[Lockdown504090]

Duncan was the best player in the league in 2007, of course he was the best player on the spurs!

Tony outperformed him in the finals imo, but that could be due to the opponent being so much lesser

If we ignore the impact of being game planned for and defense, I guess. But that's kinda silly. Also it was a 4 game sweep...

im not ignoring that at all, watch the games. tony shredded them. and in 14, tim that same argument would be used against tim. lebron has had to perform at GOAT level for every ring hes won.

[Rendei]

I literally said I understand that people don't respect LeBron.

It doesn't take away from what I said. I don't care why people do or don't like him. Purely basketball I think LeBrons finals performances are easily better than Duncans

Lebron literally finished the 2013 Finals with +0 and a ring. He's -86 in the finals for his career.

You mean the series where he led both teams in PPG, APG, and SPG and led the Heat in RPG? The one where with his team down 10 facing elimination, he scored 16 4th quarter points on 7/11 shooting to get them to OT? The one where he put up 37 points on .698 TS% in Game 7 including the clincher with 0:28 left? You weren't impressed with his on/off that series while he played 43 MPG? Huh. Interesting.

No, I'm very impressed with Lebron. But it's a comparison to Tim Duncan, who was +157 in his finals career.

[Flash4thewin]

It's funny people easily forget Duncan was out the door and ready to sign with the Magic to play with Grant Hill and Tmac. People act like player never colluded to player before Lebron. The gift of Doc Rivers here is what kept Duncan with the Spurs.

[bstein14]

LeBron, easily. Look at the road he took and the competition he faced. Duncan was carried for two of his titles (07 and 14). Heck in 2007 didn't he shoot < 40% from the field in the Finals? Meanwhile LeBron always raises his game to another level the deeper he goes.

LeBron's 4 are more impactful than Jordan's 6 IMO. Harder competition, more obstacles, etc.

No chance. How many times in his career did Duncan have to go against two top 12 players of all time in (or near) their primes on the same team?

Duncan lost several times to Kobe/Shaq but he also beat them several times. If those two guys weren't on the same team during that time period Duncan would have won a few more.

It's super rare for two top 12 players of all-time to be on the same team in (or near) their primes but that's what we had with Shaq and Kobe.

Saying Duncan had an easier path is like saying The Bad Boys Pistons had an easy path in the 80s and early 90s even though they constantly had to play against Magic, Bird, and a young Jordan.

[Bornstellar]

It's funny people easily forget Duncan was out the door and ready to sign with the Magic to play with Grant Hill and Tmac. People act like player never colluded to player before Lebron. The gift of Doc Rivers here is what kept Duncan with the Spurs.

Except he didn't so no one cares. Nice hypotheticals though.

[jasonxxx102]

Or maybe people respect the guy who didn't jump ship to form superteams en route to his rings? Give me a break dude

I'll give him 2016, which was one of the most individually impressive rings ever won. But 2012, superteam facing an experienced Thunder team, 2013 was a Ray Allen shot away from losing, and 2020 was the Bubble ring where AD was arguably better in the run than LBJ. it's not as black and white as you're making it

I literally said I understand that people don't respect LeBron.

It doesn't take away from what I said. I don't care why people do or don't like him. Purely basketball I think LeBrons finals performances are easily better than Duncans

Lebron literally finished the 2013 Finals with +0 and a ring. He's -86 in the finals for his career.

And he was still by far the best player in that series.

Sorry the facts don’t align with your narrative