Is this the greatest peak of all-time?

[Lalouie]

Does anyone care about rings anymore

[Ugalde]

i love jokic because he’s the bullet proof example of how stats lie.

[cam24thomas]

It doesn't matter whom you put on the court with Jokic, he'll always make the playoffs and probably finish top4 seed and this year #1 seed. I think his stats don't lie.

[B-easy]

Greatest offensive peak. Not overall peak.

[uberhikari]

Jokic in his last two playoff runs: 30-12-5 on 60.8 TS%. And for those that like to use bbref's advanced stats: 30.8 PER, .188 WS/48, 9.6 BPM.

Those are great numbers but they don't look like GOAT peak numbers. Especially when you factor in his defense and how non-competitive the playoff series were.

Against the Suns in 2021 Jokic averaged: 25-13-6 on 53 TS%. That's not even close to GOAT peak numbers. And nobody was expecting Jokic to actually beat the Suns but the series wasn't even competitive.

Against GSW in 2022 Jokic averaged: 31-13-6 on 64 TS%. Those numbers look more like GOAT peak numbers but, once again, the series wasn't even competitive AND his defense was truly horrendous.

From 2007-2009 LeBron had teammates just as bad as Jokic and he was able to at least make his team competitive.

2007 LeBron made the Finals.
2008 LeBron took the eventual champions to 7 games.
2009 LeBron averaged 38-8-8 on 59 TS% in the ECF and forced the series to 6 games.

Jokic hasn't been able to even make a series slightly competitive.

Jokic doesn't have to win. But he's going to need to put up monstrous historical numbers while making the series competitive to even sniff GOAT peak talk.

I dare you to find a Lebron team as awful as Gordon/Barton/Campazzo/Rivers/Monte/Hyland…

“Just as bad” lmao

https://www.basketball-reference.com/teams/CLE/2007.html

[lambchop]

Jokic in his last two playoff runs: 30-12-5 on 60.8 TS%. And for those that like to use bbref's advanced stats: 30.8 PER, .188 WS/48, 9.6 BPM.

Those are great numbers but they don't look like GOAT peak numbers. Especially when you factor in his defense and how non-competitive the playoff series were.

Against the Suns in 2021 Jokic averaged: 25-13-6 on 53 TS%. That's not even close to GOAT peak numbers. And nobody was expecting Jokic to actually beat the Suns but the series wasn't even competitive.

Against GSW in 2022 Jokic averaged: 31-13-6 on 64 TS%. Those numbers look more like GOAT peak numbers but, once again, the series wasn't even competitive AND his defense was truly horrendous.

From 2007-2009 LeBron had teammates just as bad as Jokic and he was able to at least make his team competitive.

2007 LeBron made the Finals.
2008 LeBron took the eventual champions to 7 games.
2009 LeBron averaged 38-8-8 on 59 TS% in the ECF and forced the series to 6 games.

Jokic hasn't been able to even make a series slightly competitive.

Jokic doesn't have to win. But he's going to need to put up monstrous historical numbers while making the series competitive to even sniff GOAT peak talk.

I dare you to find a Lebron team as awful as Gordon/Barton/Campazzo/Rivers/Monte/Hyland…

“Just as bad” lmao

https://www.basketball-reference.com/teams/CLE/2007.html

I think the comparison is really good between Jokic's teams and that 2007 Cavs team.

Gordon - Hughes - an OK 2nd option for a play-in level / 1st round exit playoff team.

Barton - Ilgauskas - solid scorer that can play around 30 mpg.

Rivers/Monte/Hyland - Marshall/Damon Jones/Newble - solid NBA pros that could earn minutes on any team. Fans will complain about their shortcomings, but these guys are studs and would easily dominate the drew league.

Campazzo - Gibson - shouldn't really be in the NBA, but playing alongside an all time great in Jokic/Lebron kind of negates a lot of their flaws and means they can stay on the court. Btw Campazzo was averaging 27 minutes for the Nuggets in the POs... oh lawd. Anyway, once they are no longer paired with that amazing player they will either be lottery team material (Gibson on the cavs post LBJ) or find themselves out of the NBA (Campazzo almost immediately and Gibson a couple of years later).

[AleksandarN]

Haven’t won anything

Lookin like he can be used as an example next time you wanna compare rings vs mvps

Rings are team accomplishments fwiw. I would never hold it against Jokic for not winning a title when he's played with 0 all-stars in his 8 year career. Hell, even guys like LeBron who I consider serious floor raisers and capable of carrying teams to titles played with all-stars and won nothing until he basically teamed up with 2 other all-stars and countless HOFers...

I would hold it against him if he was a known playoff choker. But jokic actually plays better than his does in the regular season and he averages show this. But for him to be considered as one of the top 10 players of all time. He needs some chips

[UglyBugBall]

Haven’t won anything

Lookin like he can be used as an example next time you wanna compare rings vs mvps

Rings are team accomplishments fwiw.

That's what losers tell themselves to feel better. In basketball, like Hockey, a single player like a Gretzky or an MJ can win championships as long as you put a few bodies around them. Heck, the very best have even won titles on non-title teams in soccer, which is far more team oriented than basketball. Funny how the very best players seem to win championships in every sport despite it being a team game.

[DonaldSanders]

People that expect all time great individual players to carry regular guys that are overpaid to glory will never be satisfied.

Jokic plays with a cast of nobodies outside of Jamal Murray, MPJ and Aaron Gordon who are just above average starters.

Jokic third best player at one time was Will Barton.

Will Barton.

You take Jokic off of the Nuggets and it is a lottery team. That's carrying.

Who is saying Jokic isn't carrying? The topic is "greatest peak of all time" -- this is a VERY high standard. The topic is how big of a carry is he? He's huge, but I'm not putting him above other greats that have carried at clearly higher levels in the playoffs. People are posting his #s in this thread, they are amazing but remember we're talking "greatest" in this thread.

Now will Jokic perform in the playoffs at some point? I absolutely think he will! I will be cheering for him. But I feel like threads like this are quite pre-mature.

[LessEyeTest]

People that expect all time great individual players to carry regular guys that are overpaid to glory will never be satisfied.

Jokic plays with a cast of nobodies outside of Jamal Murray, MPJ and Aaron Gordon who are just above average starters.

Jokic third best player at one time was Will Barton.

Will Barton.

You take Jokic off of the Nuggets and it is a lottery team. That's carrying.

Who is saying Jokic isn't carrying? The topic is "greatest peak of all time" -- this is a VERY high standard. The topic is how big of a carry is he? He's huge, but I'm not putting him above other greats that have carried at clearly higher levels in the playoffs. People are posting his #s in this thread, they are amazing but remember we're talking "greatest" in this thread.

Now will Jokic perform in the playoffs at some point? I absolutely think he will! I will be cheering for him. But I feel like threads like this are quite pre-mature.

How'd he perform last year as a 1-man unit with a G-League cast of teammates against the Warriors? Don't have the numbers in front of me, but wasn't he something like 32/13/6? And they still got routinely spanked because he might have had the worst supporting cast on a playoff team ALL-TIME.

Give him an SGA or Mitchell and he'd own the league. You're witnessing what he's doing with a solid team (again, zero all-stars) and he's got them at the #1 seed...

[DonaldSanders]

How'd he perform last year as a 1-man unit with a G-League cast of teammates against the Warriors? Don't have the numbers in front of me, but wasn't he something like 32/13/6? And they still got routinely spanked because he might have had the worst supporting cast on a playoff team ALL-TIME.

Give him an SGA or Mitchell and he'd own the league. You're witnessing what he's doing with a solid team (again, zero all-stars) and he's got them at the #1 seed...

He performed great! I defended him after the playoffs.

Are you arguing it's the greatest peak of all time?

[NoDopeOnSundays]

Jokic in his last two playoff runs: 30-12-5 on 60.8 TS%. And for those that like to use bbref's advanced stats: 30.8 PER, .188 WS/48, 9.6 BPM.

Those are great numbers but they don't look like GOAT peak numbers. Especially when you factor in his defense and how non-competitive the playoff series were.

Against the Suns in 2021 Jokic averaged: 25-13-6 on 53 TS%. That's not even close to GOAT peak numbers. And nobody was expecting Jokic to actually beat the Suns but the series wasn't even competitive.

Against GSW in 2022 Jokic averaged: 31-13-6 on 64 TS%. Those numbers look more like GOAT peak numbers but, once again, the series wasn't even competitive AND his defense was truly horrendous.

From 2007-2009 LeBron had teammates just as bad as Jokic and he was able to at least make his team competitive.

2007 LeBron made the Finals.
2008 LeBron took the eventual champions to 7 games.
2009 LeBron averaged 38-8-8 on 59 TS% in the ECF and forced the series to 6 games.

Jokic hasn't been able to even make a series slightly competitive.

Jokic doesn't have to win. But he's going to need to put up monstrous historical numbers while making the series competitive to even sniff GOAT peak talk.

I dare you to find a Lebron team as awful as Gordon/Barton/Campazzo/Rivers/Monte/Hyland…

“Just as bad” lmao

Starting lineup in 2007 finals




They ended up starting Daniel Gibson when Hughes got hurt. That team is objectively worse, Gordon is better by miles than anyone on that roster.

[G35]

Haven’t won anything

Lookin like he can be used as an example next time you wanna compare rings vs mvps

According to some people, winning should not matter, its how you play the game. For example, putting up 35/8/10 and losing is better than putting up 24/6/4 and winning.

I can't understand that logic. It doesn't matter what stats you put up if you lose.....

[LessEyeTest]

Jokic in his last two playoff runs: 30-12-5 on 60.8 TS%. And for those that like to use bbref's advanced stats: 30.8 PER, .188 WS/48, 9.6 BPM.

Those are great numbers but they don't look like GOAT peak numbers. Especially when you factor in his defense and how non-competitive the playoff series were.

Against the Suns in 2021 Jokic averaged: 25-13-6 on 53 TS%. That's not even close to GOAT peak numbers. And nobody was expecting Jokic to actually beat the Suns but the series wasn't even competitive.

Against GSW in 2022 Jokic averaged: 31-13-6 on 64 TS%. Those numbers look more like GOAT peak numbers but, once again, the series wasn't even competitive AND his defense was truly horrendous.

From 2007-2009 LeBron had teammates just as bad as Jokic and he was able to at least make his team competitive.

2007 LeBron made the Finals.
2008 LeBron took the eventual champions to 7 games.
2009 LeBron averaged 38-8-8 on 59 TS% in the ECF and forced the series to 6 games.

Jokic hasn't been able to even make a series slightly competitive.

Jokic doesn't have to win. But he's going to need to put up monstrous historical numbers while making the series competitive to even sniff GOAT peak talk.

I dare you to find a Lebron team as awful as Gordon/Barton/
/Rivers/Monte/Hyland…

“Just as bad” lmao

Starting lineup in 2007 finals




They ended up starting Daniel Gibson when Hughes got hurt. That team is objectively worse, Gordon is better by miles than anyone on that roster.

Aaron Gordon, the cast-off, who is playing out of his mind sheerly through Jokic's brilliance?

However, let's have some fun.

This guy played 20 mpg last season for Denver in 65 games, shot 36% from the field and was a large net negative. He has appeared for Dallas 8 times and averages 6.5 MPG this season.
https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/c/campafa01.html

This guy started all 71 games for Denver last season averaging 32 MPG. He is now a backup for the 10th seeded Wizards playing 19 MPG.
https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/b/bartowi01.html

This guy played 67 games for Denver last season averaging 22 MPG and had a 0.037 WS rate, 104 ORtg and 115 DRtg, and a -3.8 BPM.
https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/r/riverau01.html

[CobraCommander]

Jokic win 2 rings and he is potentially top 10 all time

It will be wilt, Shaq Hakeem Kareem fighting with Jokic for a spot on the center Mount Rushmore of centers -

Sorry Boston...I love Mr Russell but I met the man...he was shorter than advertised (or shrank a ton when I met him at GeorgeTown) And couldnt handle these guys....sorry...again and no disrespect

[nikster]

Jokic in his last two playoff runs: 30-12-5 on 60.8 TS%. And for those that like to use bbref's advanced stats: 30.8 PER, .188 WS/48, 9.6 BPM.

Those are great numbers but they don't look like GOAT peak numbers. Especially when you factor in his defense and how non-competitive the playoff series were.

Against the Suns in 2021 Jokic averaged: 25-13-6 on 53 TS%. That's not even close to GOAT peak numbers. And nobody was expecting Jokic to actually beat the Suns but the series wasn't even competitive.

Against GSW in 2022 Jokic averaged: 31-13-6 on 64 TS%. Those numbers look more like GOAT peak numbers but, once again, the series wasn't even competitive AND his defense was truly horrendous.

From 2007-2009 LeBron had teammates just as bad as Jokic and he was able to at least make his team competitive.

2007 LeBron made the Finals.
2008 LeBron took the eventual champions to 7 games.
2009 LeBron averaged 38-8-8 on 59 TS% in the ECF and forced the series to 6 games.

Jokic hasn't been able to even make a series slightly competitive.

Jokic doesn't have to win. But he's going to need to put up monstrous historical numbers while making the series competitive to even sniff GOAT peak talk.

I dare you to find a Lebron team as awful as Gordon/Barton/Campazzo/Rivers/Monte/Hyland…

“Just as bad” lmao

Starting lineup in 2007 finals




They ended up starting Daniel Gibson when Hughes got hurt. That team is objectively worse, Gordon is better by miles than anyone on that roster.

Yes that offense is bad but That Cavs was good because of defense. the team played like a top 5 defense even when Lebron was on the bench. Nuggets with Jokic on the bench play like a bottom 5 defense.

[NoDopeOnSundays]

I dare you to find a Lebron team as awful as Gordon/Barton/
/Rivers/Monte/Hyland…

“Just as bad” lmao

Starting lineup in 2007 finals




They ended up starting Daniel Gibson when Hughes got hurt. That team is objectively worse, Gordon is better by miles than anyone on that roster.

Aaron Gordon, the cast-off, who is playing out of his mind sheerly through Jokic's brilliance?

However, let's have some fun.

This guy played 20 mpg last season for Denver in 65 games, shot 36% from the field and was a large net negative. He has appeared for Dallas 8 times and averages 6.5 MPG this season.
https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/c/campafa01.html

This guy started all 71 games for Denver last season averaging 32 MPG. He is now a backup for the 10th seeded Wizards playing 19 MPG.
https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/b/bartowi01.html

This guy played 67 games for Denver last season averaging 22 MPG and had a 0.037 WS rate, 104 ORtg and 115 DRtg, and a -3.8 BPM.
https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/r/riverau01.html

Cool, this team made the finals -





Gordon is better than every single player on there other than LeBron. Larry Hughes averaged 2.5ppg in the two games he played in the finals, that was supposed to be LeBron's sidekick.


https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/p/pavloal01.html


He was the starting 2 guard on a finals team

[NoDopeOnSundays]

I dare you to find a Lebron team as awful as Gordon/Barton/Campazzo/Rivers/Monte/Hyland…

“Just as bad” lmao

Starting lineup in 2007 finals




They ended up starting Daniel Gibson when Hughes got hurt. That team is objectively worse, Gordon is better by miles than anyone on that roster.

Yes that offense is bad but That Cavs was good because of defense. the team played like a top 5 defense even when Lebron was on the bench. Nuggets with Jokic on the bench play like a bottom 5 defense.

LeBron averaged 44.7 minutes per game in the playoffs in 06/07

Jokic averaged 34.2 minutes per game last year.


The Cavs literally could not take him out of games in the playoffs, and LeBron was never, ever taken out of a late game situation for offense/defense like Jokic was last year against the Warriors.

[hauntedcomputer]

Sorry Boston...I love Mr Russell but I met the man...he was shorter than advertised (or shrank a ton when I met him at GeorgeTown) And couldnt handle these guys....sorry...again and no disrespect

If Jokic faced Russell 8 times a season, you could reduce Jokic's counting stats by 15 percent across the board.

Sorry...again and no disrespect.

Eleven rings for a reason and triple doubles isn't one of them.

[CobraCommander]

Starting lineup in 2007 finals




They ended up starting Daniel Gibson when Hughes got hurt. That team is objectively worse, Gordon is better by miles than anyone on that roster.

Aaron Gordon, the cast-off, who is playing out of his mind sheerly through Jokic's brilliance?

However, let's have some fun.

This guy played 20 mpg last season for Denver in 65 games, shot 36% from the field and was a large net negative. He has appeared for Dallas 8 times and averages 6.5 MPG this season.
https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/c/campafa01.html

This guy started all 71 games for Denver last season averaging 32 MPG. He is now a backup for the 10th seeded Wizards playing 19 MPG.
https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/b/bartowi01.html

This guy played 67 games for Denver last season averaging 22 MPG and had a 0.037 WS rate, 104 ORtg and 115 DRtg, and a -3.8 BPM.
https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/r/riverau01.html

Cool, this team made the finals -





Gordon is better than every single player on there other than LeBron. Larry Hughes averaged 2.5ppg in the two games he played in the finals, that was supposed to be LeBron's sidekick.


https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/p/pavloal01.html


He was the starting 2 guard on a finals team

Let’s be clear- Dallas, Denver, Milwaukee, and even lebrons current team is better than this team minus Lebron…

This is insane
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