NBA players are better than ever, despite what the legends say

[og15]

Regardless of rules and all that, with the global reach of the game, the now seemingly unlimited development opportunities, the easy ability for players to access film and breakdowns of older players and take everything from them, the constant expansion of talent acquisition, NBA players SHOULD be able to better than ever in a season where the talent doesn't have a random drought.

You’re 100% correct. I agree with everything you’ve said here

NBA players should be better than ever. And they are

Certainly, but that doesn't also mean that the rules as well as the playstyle aren't more favorable to offenses than in the past. Even little clean ups like clear path fouls, those kinds of things are going to increase offense more than people think.

[C_Alejandro]

I mean, use whatever excuses you want, but that's the point the older guys have and it works for them. Back in the day, if you watched a game between two potential MVP candidates, there's a 99% chance they'd actually play against each other. Now it's a coin flip chance at best.

Do I think Giannis would be a bench player in the 90s? No. but if the root of this is the old guys are saying the younger generation is soft, well, the older guys played a lot and didn't rest that much. The younger guys don't play as much. If these guys are really the super athletes that I've heard they are, fatigue shouldn't be much of an issue. Their superior athleticism should make up for it.

Players suffer through injury as a result of the style of play that requires constant movement. That isn’t an “excuse.” That’s a valid point

Back then, players stood around and watched the scorer go iso. Today, you have constant screen action and closing out on shooters. That’ll inevitably lead to more wear and tear, more injuries, and more fatigue.

It's absolutely an excuse. Plus the idea that screens and movement didn't exist in the 90s is absurd. Players fought thru screens and moved around then. And again, if these guys have the benefit of 20 years of sports medicine and are just that much physically superior, shouldn't that make up for the increase in movement?

But even if you believe this is valid, the cold reality is that it leads to tons more rest for players today, so the older generation can call them soft and the fans today can turn on a game and see star players out and believe that criticism.

I never said screens didn’t exist back then. I’m saying player movement in half-court sets was far less back then. Players also didn’t have to close out on shooters much. Again, the game tape will show this.

Regardless, the older-heads are mostly criticizing the players today for the on-court product. And the on-court product is better than ever, even if players play less games.

[C_Alejandro]

Not a myth.
You're conflating schemes with how the game is officiated. Better schemes now for sure on both ends. But the whistle grossly goes in favor of the offensive player now with little balance. I won't even get into the how many more HARD and cheap fouls there were then because it seems you watched a few videos on youtube and have suddenly become an authority on an era well before you were born.

I can easily show you a compilation of hard fouls over the last 5 years. That’s not what we use to judge eras

I know you like to watch tape of the same 5 hard fouls committed by Bill Laimbeer and Dennis Rodman, but that’s not what we use to judge eras.

And I’ve watched FULL playoff series. As well as regular season games. The physicality you speak of is completely overrated.

I remember back in 2000, Kareem Abdul-Jabbar would claim that the current NBA players were too rough and brutish, while his era had more “finesse and skill.” He said this as an underhanded shot against Shaq, who was MVP at the time.

So they change their argument whenever it suits them.

Wow!! Whole playoff series? Tell me more ye wise sage and graduate of YouTube University. You're basically mansplaining - I've watched NBA basketball from the 80's through to today.

Not to diminish your contributions but your post and subsequent posts in this thread are basically code for "how to say you're young and haven't seen much ball from the era you're ripping without saying it".

Yes, entire playoff series. I’ve watched every NBA Finals game Jordan played in, as well as multiple Conference Finals series, first round series, regular season games. I watched every Bird-Magic Finals matchup, as well as playoff series involving Hakeem, Drexler, Robinson, Shaq, Malone, etc.

And stop with this “young kid” nonsense. I’m a grown man in my 30’s with a wife and kid. I’m not some 12 year old who just started watching

Your memories of what you’ve seen 30 years ago doesn’t compare to someone actually watching it today.

[Duke4life831]

I think more players today are better shooters than they were in the 80s and 90s. After that Im not sure I see a big skill difference. Guys flat out palming the ball now, traveling and so on. Im not sure handling is all that much more advanced now. And yes I know palming the ball has always been a thing, but it has gotten to pretty dumb levels over the last 3-5 years. I dont think foot work in the mid range or post has gotten better. I dont think individual defense has gotten better either.

I dont know, I feel like the way the game is called and the style of play teams go with now. I think the "modern era" is over, we are now in a new era of the sport. I think the modern era was early 80s to probably around 2014-2015. The game is just different now.

I was actually just rewatching some of the Lakers vs Celtics finals from 2010 last week. I mean we are talking a game from 2010, not 1970 and the game was a completely different game. The way it was called and the way it was played. Its pointless to try and compare anything from today to just 12 years ago. In a 7 game series, LA and BOS both broke the 100 point mark just 1 time.

And to be clear, this isnt me saying the players from before were better. Im just saying we are just in a different era of basketball now. Its pointless to compare because we're talking 2 different sports.

[C_Alejandro]

Regardless of rules and all that, with the global reach of the game, the now seemingly unlimited development opportunities, the easy ability for players to access film and breakdowns of older players and take everything from them, the constant expansion of talent acquisition, NBA players SHOULD be able to better than ever in a season where the talent doesn't have a random drought.

You’re 100% correct. I agree with everything you’ve said here

NBA players should be better than ever. And they are

Certainly, but that doesn't also mean that the rules as well as the playstyle aren't more favorable to offenses than in the past. Even little clean ups like clear path fouls, those kinds of things are going to increase offense more than people think.

Fair enough. But that also goes in the other direction. The elimination of the Illegal Defence rules has made it easier for defences to run more sophisticated defensive schemes.

I see older-heads claim that Jordan could average 45 points today. That’s patently false. If he couldn’t do 45 in his era, there’s no way he could do it in a more talented league

[C_Alejandro]

I think more players today are better shooters than they were in the 80s and 90s. After that Im not sure I see a big skill difference. Guys flat out palming the ball now, traveling and so on. Im not sure handling is all that much more advanced now. And yes I know palming the ball has always been a thing, but it has gotten to pretty dumb levels over the last 3-5 years. I dont think foot work in the mid range or post has gotten better. I dont think individual defense has gotten better either.

I dont know, I feel like the way the game is called and the style of play teams go with now. I think the "modern era" is over, we are now in a new era of the sport. I think the modern era was early 80s to probably around 2014-2015. The game is just different now.

I was actually just rewatching some of the Lakers vs Celtics finals from 2010 last week. I mean we are talking a game from 2010, not 1970 and the game was a completely different game. The way it was called and the way it was played. Its pointless to try and compare anything from today to just 12 years ago. In a 7 game series, LA and BOS both broke the 100 point mark just 1 time.

And to be clear, this isnt me saying the players from before were better. Im just saying we are just in a different era of basketball now. Its pointless to compare because we're talking 2 different sports.

This is an excellent post. The 2010 Finals were much different from today. I remember rewatching it, and I was shocked by how different the style was.

It certainly isn’t the rule changes, as there haven’t been significant changes in the past 12 years. Personnel and philosophies have changed, and teams like to imitate each other on what works. If a spread pick and roll offence is what works for you, then other teams will adopt it.

Basketball is still a young sport and there’s tons of innovation happening all the time

[infinite11285]

Athletically they're better, but not with respect to skill.

Playing defense, playing out of the post, and consistently hitting mid-range jumpers appear to be a lost tradition.

[C_Alejandro]

Athletically they're better, but not with respect to skill.

Playing defense, playing out of the post, and consistently hitting mid-range jumpers appear to be a lost tradition.

We have excellent midrange shooters today. We literally have so many of them, from Curry to Kyrie to Jokic to Embiid to Derozan to many others. Are you kidding me right now?

It’s not a “lost art.”

[Yuri Vaultin]

Athletically they're better, but not with respect to skill.

Playing defense, playing out of the post, and consistently hitting mid-range jumpers appear to be a lost tradition.

We have excellent midrange shooters today. We literally have so many of them, from Curry to Kyrie to Jokic to Embiid to Derozan to many others. Are you kidding me right now?

It’s not a “lost art.”

4 superstars and Derozan cited. You missed the point entirely.

[KGtabake]

If you only value offense, sure.

[C_Alejandro]

Athletically they're better, but not with respect to skill.

Playing defense, playing out of the post, and consistently hitting mid-range jumpers appear to be a lost tradition.

We have excellent midrange shooters today. We literally have so many of them, from Curry to Kyrie to Jokic to Embiid to Derozan to many others. Are you kidding me right now?

It’s not a “lost art.”

4 superstars and Derozan cited. You missed the point entirely.

It’s an example. And tons of other players are shooting midrange jumpers.

That argument may have been true in 2017, but players/teams have realized that midrange jumpers are important to keep the defences guessing, hence why they incorporate it into their offence. This isn’t Moreyball anymore

It’s not a lost art. It’s not like they can’t shoot the ball from midrange.

Watch on YouTube

[Got Nuffin]

Players generally are much more skilled today. They are also stronger and fitter because they simply have a lot more resources allocated to them than back then.

On the flip side, you are wrong about hand checking - it was real and it was a serious defensive tactic. Many guards (eg. Doc Rivers) didn't even need to be fast they just needed to be strong so they could hold your waist while you tried to get by them. That kind of defence simply does not happen today where everything is biased towards the offensive player.

So a lot of players that had good careers back then wouldn't get on the court now because they're not fast enough to play defence just with their feet.

Then again, you could imagine some of the good offensive players from back then would blow up in today's game without that kind of defensive pressure being applied - especially the faster guys with handle.

It's not a black and white argument.

[celticfan42487]

What a great guide for "How to show that I have only watched NBA ball for the past 5 years in one post!"

[FluLikeSymptoms]

The mean player and median player are the best all-time. No doubt.

[DaPessimist]

Are players better passers today? Watching an NBA player try to make a basic post pass is actually embarrassing. The average NBA player is mostly relegated to swing passes and drive and kick passes. The Star players are comparable to Star players from the 80's, 90's, 2000's.

Are players better post scorers? Most Bigs don't even have a post game these days, and I'm still waiting for someone to at least try to master the Skyhook; you know, the move that led to most points scored in the history of the sport. Guys like Hakeem (90's) and McHale (80's) would embarrass any modern NBA post scorer.

Are players better midrange shooters? I'm not sure, maybe someone can post some stats. Seems like the only NBA players taking midrange shots consistently are Star players. The average NBA player is standing in the corner shooting the 3-ball or attacking the rim.

Are players better defenders? Defensive strategies have improved, and the overall emphasis on defense has increased, but I'd take 90's defensive Stars over modern NBA defensive Stars. The modern rules have made it so hard to defend, it's hard to tell if individual defense ability has improved.

Ultimately, players will be good at what they practice, and will practice what works (rules). I would say the average NBA player is more skilled today, but not at every aspect of the game. At the Star level not much has changed outside of improved 3pnt shooting at every position.

[Xatticus]

The NBA game wasn’t as violent as they claim it was. There were lots of ticky-tack fouls called, and hand-checking was never a serious defensive tactic.

Watch full NBA games from that era. The game tape doesn’t lie.

Hand-checking was absolutely a thing. It killed offenses. The game was a lot more physical in the past, especially in the playoffs. Either you weren't around or you are misremembering? I'm not trying to validate hyperbolic statements. It's just a fact. Some of those 90s playoff series were brutal to watch.

[One Last Shot]

This NBA season has the deepest level of talent we’ve ever seen. We have players from Jokic, Embiid, Luka, Steph, Ja, Kyrie, and many other talents. Even the role players are incredibly versatile and skilled.

Yet every single day, I see constant comments from older heads like Charles Oakley saying that Giannis wouldn’t make an NBA roster in the 1990s. Or that Steph would get bullied by the likes of Isiah Thomas

I’m all for respecting the NBA older-heads, but no other sport does this. NFL and soccer fans aren’t constantly listening to legends denigrating the current game. They barely even do analysis anymore.

I see guys like SHAQ who didn’t even know who Rui Hachimura was, despite his literal job being paid to talk about basketball. Yet this same guy will denigrate the current talent and say they’re “soft.”

It’s honestly killing the product. Fans believe what these legends say, and their nostalgia leads them to believe that NBA superstars today would struggle in the 1990s. That’s false. The opposite is true. Yet I’m seeing 21 year olds who falsely believe that they missed out on the golden era of basketball.

Again, no other sport does this. Basketball is beset by this cancer of nostalgia bias and Jordan worship, and it needs to stop if this sport is to thrive.

Perhaps if these guys played more instead of load managed themselves into oblivion and treated the regular season like preseason nobody would take the older guys seriously.

Let me correct the thread for you, NBA Players are better and smarter than ever. What's the point of playing 80+ games and 38+ minutes every game these days? How they defend decades back is way different how the game works now. Big men are forced to defend in space and faster pace today while they can just camp in the paint before, injuries are through the roof simply because defenders have so much space to cover every game. Unless NBA implements a no-work-no-pay policy where Kawhi will lose $518,201 every game he miss based on his salary, load-management is here to say. It's the new META. superstars like Giannis averaging less than 33 minutes per game in his entire career while Iverson averaged 41+ minutes in 15 seasons.

[MavsDirk41]

This NBA season has the deepest level of talent we’ve ever seen. We have players from Jokic, Embiid, Luka, Steph, Ja, Kyrie, and many other talents. Even the role players are incredibly versatile and skilled.

Yet every single day, I see constant comments from older heads like Charles Oakley saying that Giannis wouldn’t make an NBA roster in the 1990s. Or that Steph would get bullied by the likes of Isiah Thomas

I’m all for respecting the NBA older-heads, but no other sport does this. NFL and soccer fans aren’t constantly listening to legends denigrating the current game. They barely even do analysis anymore.

I see guys like SHAQ who didn’t even know who Rui Hachimura was, despite his literal job being paid to talk about basketball. Yet this same guy will denigrate the current talent and say they’re “soft.”

It’s honestly killing the product. Fans believe what these legends say, and their nostalgia leads them to believe that NBA superstars today would struggle in the 1990s. That’s false. The opposite is true. Yet I’m seeing 21 year olds who falsely believe that they missed out on the golden era of basketball.

Again, no other sport does this. Basketball is beset by this cancer of nostalgia bias and Jordan worship, and it needs to stop if this sport is to thrive.

Perhaps if these guys played more instead of load managed themselves into oblivion and treated the regular season like preseason nobody would take the older guys seriously.

Players have to cover more ground in half-court sets, especially when it comes to closing out on shooters. Back in the 1990s, you’d have the star player going iso while 8 guys would stand there and watch. Now you have constant movement, leading to more fatigue.

But that’s besides the point. The older-heads are wrong. Giannis would not be a bench player in the 1990s. Scottie Pippen could not shut down Kevin Durant. They’re lying to us. These new ballers are better than ever

“These new ballers are better than ever” - this is fact? If so, do you have any proof? Maybe, just maybe, this is your opinion???

[MavsDirk41]

You’re 100% correct. I agree with everything you’ve said here

NBA players should be better than ever. And they are

Certainly, but that doesn't also mean that the rules as well as the playstyle aren't more favorable to offenses than in the past. Even little clean ups like clear path fouls, those kinds of things are going to increase offense more than people think.

Fair enough. But that also goes in the other direction. The elimination of the Illegal Defence rules has made it easier for defences to run more sophisticated defensive schemes.

I see older-heads claim that Jordan could average 45 points today. That’s patently false. If he couldn’t do 45 in his era, there’s no way he could do it in a more talented league

Luka has multiple 40 and 50 point games this season only, i dont think Jordan averages 45 a game but close to 40, yea. By the way did you grow up watching the nba in the 90s? Or you going off youtube videos? Im curious

[C_Alejandro]

Certainly, but that doesn't also mean that the rules as well as the playstyle aren't more favorable to offenses than in the past. Even little clean ups like clear path fouls, those kinds of things are going to increase offense more than people think.

Fair enough. But that also goes in the other direction. The elimination of the Illegal Defence rules has made it easier for defences to run more sophisticated defensive schemes.

I see older-heads claim that Jordan could average 45 points today. That’s patently false. If he couldn’t do 45 in his era, there’s no way he could do it in a more talented league

Luka has multiple 40 and 50 point games this season only, i dont think Jordan averages 45 a game but close to 40, yea. By the way did you grow up watching the nba in the 90s? Or you going off youtube videos? Im curious

I’m barely old enough to have remembered Bulls Jordan, but I really started watching the game in 2000. So I’ve been a ball fan for over 2 decades now, and I used to believe back then that I missed out on the “golden era” of Bird, Magic and Jordan.

Jordan averaged 33 per game as a Bull. Mitch Richmond averaged something like 26 per game for a few seasons. If Jordan could average 45, does this mean Mitch would’ve also averaged 40? Is Mitch a better player than the current superstars?

Why is it that people isolate Jordan as if he was the only big-time scorer of his era? If he would average 45 today, then so would every other star, including the likes of Reggie Miller and others. That makes zero sense