Pelicans are 10-22 since new year, is it acceptable that they've been this bad?

[bwgood77]

So, a team that loses two of their top three guys ... and then struggles ... and people think that's "acceptable"

IF the Pelicans were for "real" ... then they would have had two guys on the end of the bench who were as good as the two guys they lost, right?

I think it's just a dumb question. How do you answer it? How good should they be? I remember when the Suns were missing like 6 of their 9 top players this year and struggling everyone was blaming Bridges and Ayton for not carrying 3rd stringers to wins against good teams (and they even took the Nuggets to OT and played some other teams well).

It's tough to judge, but yeah, any team missing it's top 2 players is unlikely to be good unless you have super quality backups like Memphis, who can usually hang since Tyus Jones is probably the best backup PG in the league and they have solid PFs/Guards to backup JJJ or Bane.

You guys are right, maybe I just overrated their ability to do it by committee, I thought they are one of the deepest teams around, and maybe they are but its a star league. At first even without ZIon and Ingram they were looking ok, but then just fell apart. I Mean I guess that was expected, but it was still a bit disappointing to me, I really expected this team to be very good, and yeah, if ZIon plays 25 games a year, this team is nothing, but I dont know, I was going against my character and were over optimistic with this group of players.

Part of it is just how tough and deep the west is. Hasn't Herb Jones been out some too? I think also without Zion last year it was probably easier to gain chemistry without him, but then when you play with him and get used to it, and THEN have to try and play without him, it's tough because it changes everything so much since he requires so much defensive attention.

[FeatheryTouch]

They need Zion for his scoring, simple as.

Ingram's not good enough to be the number one option in a playoff team. And turns out that McCollum wasn't being held back by playing second fiddle to Lillard, he's good, but nothing amazing.

Side note: I feel like Valanciunas was jinxed by some early-season thread on here, I don't remember was it about him or a bunch of centers in general, but there was a bit of a w*nkfest over him and he's been quite mid ever since.

Yes, as a big Jonas fan\, I remember, he started very well but him and McCollum just kind of disappeared, Jonas especially.

Jonas is just one of those centers that can score points, but is just not a closign player because of exploitative defensive struggles. THat part to me makes sense but always didnt make sense to me also. If guys like Jonas isnt good for 4th. quarter, why do they play more in first 3 quarters then, as human, I understand the difference, but logically, there is no difference really, you build score over entire game. But no, Jonas will play more in first 3 quarters, will score a lot of points, will give up points, but Larry Nance will sub him in the forth. It always made sense but also didnt make sense at all to me, is it just me?

Nance isn't durable enough to play more than 20 min per game. The best version of this team brings JV off the bench or maybe even doesn't even have him at all. He clogs the paint for Zion and can't protect the rim. The fact that Zion can score so efficiently with JV on the floor is a testament to how good Zion is.

Zion with Nance: 14.2 netrtg (119.6 off, 105.4 def)

Zion with JV: 3.9 netrtg (112.8 off, 108.9 def)

Their scoring woes aren't the reason they're losing. Their starting lineup:

CJ/Ingram/Jones/Murphy/JV

107.3 offrtg
127.9 defrtg

-20.6 netrtg

Their starting lineup is basically the worst defensive team of all time.

I haven't seen the Pels much lately but that seems surprising, i thought that the calling card of Herb Jones was defense and that BI and Murphy were + defenders.

Zion is NOT a good defender, you might assume defense would actually get better with him out and Murphy in.

They also have Grand Theft Alvarado coming off the bench, and coming into the season everyone assumed they had a "deep" team.

Even factoring in the Zion loss it feels like they are underperforming.

[Mrakar]

It is not acceptable even with the injuries. Team is deap, talent is there but that is it...Teamplay, cohesion, actions,...
Ingram and CJ are taking though long 2s all the time. They are making them at good rate but they are still long contested 2s...No freethrows...no threes...no layups... it is hard to win like that. Zion solves a lot of it, but i can't believe that team with this amount of talent has to play like this.
Also, there is no energy outside of Jose, Nance and occasional Murphy.
Jones and Daniels are playing though but calm and with composure and they dont bring energy.

I think Green has to do something. Remeber when Boston was bad and they turned it around in couple of weeks? Tatum and Brown stoped taking bad shots all the time, Smart also, they started to share the ball and tried to find good shot. You can always take contested shot at the end of shot clock, but you have 20s to try something else first...

[phanman]

23-14 before Zion went down.... 10-21 since. Even using the Ingram injury excuse isn't valid as the team was 26-22 and then proceeded to go 5-11(not counting the 1-1 record with Ingram sitting out the B2B) with both Ingram and CJ in the line-up.

They just haven't been playing well at all. Sure they are missing their 2 PFs... but damn. This is even with CJ doing an admirable job since Zion's injury > 22.8pts 5.9ast, 3.9reb, 0.7stl, 0.5blk on 55.9%TS 45/38/78 in 34.8mpg

[GreatWhiteStiff]

I'm surprised no one is centering out and roasting JV for his defence yet. It's not like people are aware the OP is lithuanian and are sensitive to his feelings either.

[UcanUwill]

I'm surprised no one is centering out and roasting JV for his defence yet. It's not like people are aware the OP is lithuanian and are sensitive to his feelings either.

Jonas is my fav, but I dont think I am too hypocritical towards him, I know he cant play defense at this level and that is sad. Still better than Domantas when it counts, in Lithuanian jersey haha

[Edrees]

Pick swap pick swap pick swap!

Pelicans have the right to swap picks with Lakers. Not the other way around. They have identical records and if both teams end up in the lottery, they'd have doubled their chance to get a top 3 pick. Still not great odds. So there is a little positive of them not being even mediocre without Zion right now. West is pretty stacked anyway.

Right, for sure. I was just mocking the people who thought LA would have a much worse record

I saved a bunch of posts of people telling me how completely wrong and delusional I was for predicting the teams end up within the same record of each other and the pick swap not even being a factor. Waiting for the end of the season but I'm ready to collect receipts.

[Jsmoke]

The big issue with Zion out is that they don't have anyone that puts pressure on the rim.
This means that our wings (Herb, Dyson and even Trey) don't get to make good plays against a scrambling defense and they just aren't good enough yet to make an advantage out of nothing.

Thinking Basketball did a great video on Herb Jones 'Stampeding' off Zion's drives and how it made him a good offensive player while being a sub 30% shooter. Without the initial drive...he is just a bad shooter to rotate off.

CJ is trying to do it...but he doesn't get all the way to the rim and when he does get there, he doesn't finish super well or make passes that a natural PG would make.

[MavsDirk41]

Zion is like the modern day Greg Oden. Its a shame cause the guy is so talented. That and Ingram cant seem to stay healthy. If healthy i think they would be a fun team to watch and definitely a playoff team.

[Duke4life831]

They seem to have zoned out Willie Green. This team right now (without Zion) is essentially the same team that made the run last year to make the playoffs and pushed PHX to 6 games. So no we can’t blame it all on Zion’s injury.

I say I think they have zoned out Willie because this is pretty much the same team and the energy they’re playing with right now is not even in the same league as the energy was last year. Last year that team was so energetic, if there is one thing you could count on, they were going to play with a ton of energy and play harder than anyone else. Now? This team is just flat, zero energy at all.

[ConSarnit]

Yes, as a big Jonas fan\, I remember, he started very well but him and McCollum just kind of disappeared, Jonas especially.

Jonas is just one of those centers that can score points, but is just not a closign player because of exploitative defensive struggles. THat part to me makes sense but always didnt make sense to me also. If guys like Jonas isnt good for 4th. quarter, why do they play more in first 3 quarters then, as human, I understand the difference, but logically, there is no difference really, you build score over entire game. But no, Jonas will play more in first 3 quarters, will score a lot of points, will give up points, but Larry Nance will sub him in the forth. It always made sense but also didnt make sense at all to me, is it just me?

Nance isn't durable enough to play more than 20 min per game. The best version of this team brings JV off the bench or maybe even doesn't even have him at all. He clogs the paint for Zion and can't protect the rim. The fact that Zion can score so efficiently with JV on the floor is a testament to how good Zion is.

Zion with Nance: 14.2 netrtg (119.6 off, 105.4 def)

Zion with JV: 3.9 netrtg (112.8 off, 108.9 def)

Their scoring woes aren't the reason they're losing. Their starting lineup:

CJ/Ingram/Jones/Murphy/JV

107.3 offrtg
127.9 defrtg

-20.6 netrtg

Their starting lineup is basically the worst defensive team of all time.

I haven't seen the Pels much lately but that seems surprising, i thought that the calling card of Herb Jones was defense and that BI and Murphy were + defenders.

Zion is NOT a good defender, you might assume defense would actually get better with him out and Murphy in.

They also have Grand Theft Alvarado coming off the bench, and coming into the season everyone assumed they had a "deep" team.

Even factoring in the Zion loss it feels like they are underperforming.

Yeah, it’s confusing as to why they are so bad. I would say Murphy is not a good defender. Jones can’t shoot this year. BI is probably below average defensively. CJ and JV are not good. They still shouldn’t be this awful defensively. I think Zion has progressed to “ok” as a defender but he’s not near good enough to lift this team defensively. NBA.com doesn’t allow me to break down transition stats by date ranges so I can’t separate for when Zion was in the lineup.

My theory: the current starters have been bad offensively this year. Zion, while not great defensively is maybe the best player at getting to the rim in the league. He is also an incredible finisher and draws fouls. High volume super efficient rim scoring makes it very tough for opposing teams to a) get out in transition and b) allows the Pels to get back on defense because the other team is inbounding the ball. Even bad defensive teams can do ok if they have time to setup their half court defense. I don’t know if the transition numbers bare this out, but it sort of makes sense as to why they are better defensively with Zion.

[jazzfan1971]

Did Ingram used to be better? I remember one game he just torched the Jazz. I thought he looked pretty good. But, seems like he can't carry his team to even a mediocre win these days.

Did he regress? Or did he just play amazing vs. my Jazz?

[KyRo23]

Did Ingram used to be better? I remember one game he just torched the Jazz. I thought he looked pretty good. But, seems like he can't carry his team to even a mediocre win these days.

Did he regress? Or did he just play amazing vs. my Jazz?

I got slammed in another thread for criticizing his improvement. I feel like he should be better at this point

[BuddyBuckets]

It is frankly unacceptable. Sure they have a boat load of injuries this year, CJ is playing with a damn MMA glove on his shooting hand, may as well be on the sideline.

Team was touted as a deep roster when they were winning but they really aren't. When healthy they can give anyone problems. And the main problem is Zion coz he is a top 7 player when he's on.

I watch a bunch of Pels games and I just find the offense needlessly overdramatic. All these double screens and hand offs that barely stretch the defense. All for Ingram or CJ to wind up taking a contested shot or passing to Herb coz everyone leaves him open.

I'm not sure Willie is the problem. I mean this team was top of the West for a short time, but so was Utah. But I feel like remnants of SVG and Monty still linger... Like this team is still reading some bible of a religion they denounced long ago.

When healthy they are a big problem. But this season has proven they 1) can't stay healthy 2) don't have a backup plan for injuries.

They are getting blown out by 10+ points in the first quarter more often than not. At some point you just have to say 'this isn't it' and change it up. I hope they do something major this offseason with coaching and roster. Have a solid backfill for Zion, maybe move Ingram and let Trey/Herb own the SF role, shift CJ away from PG duties coz he's just not great at it and find a guy that can steer the team better.

[BostonCouchGM]

for some reason McCollum has had people fooled since his POR days. He is and has always been a high usage chucker who plays zero defense and doesn't help winning. Nobody should be surprised that NOP is struggling with him as the defacto #1 due to injuries to Ingram and Zion. Why teams continue to try and make players like McCollum work is beyond me.

[Statlanta]

They barely made the playoffs in an injury filled season last year so yes

[LuDux1]

Is JV hurt? Since he missed 2 games and played 32 against Kings his minutes are down to15

[Dacost]

Sadly JV is the worst defending big in the NBA and I think his NBA days number.

I always though he was gonna get better eventually (on defense)but he didn't.

He is almost unplayable at the moment.

[Phreak50]

Zion is the only person to blame.

None of these guys are good enough to drag this squad to the playoffs.

They all need each other. Fit. Healthy.

[deneem4]

Nance isn't durable enough to play more than 20 min per game. The best version of this team brings JV off the bench or maybe even doesn't even have him at all. He clogs the paint for Zion and can't protect the rim. The fact that Zion can score so efficiently with JV on the floor is a testament to how good Zion is.

Zion with Nance: 14.2 netrtg (119.6 off, 105.4 def)

Zion with JV: 3.9 netrtg (112.8 off, 108.9 def)

Their scoring woes aren't the reason they're losing. Their starting lineup:

CJ/Ingram/Jones/Murphy/JV

107.3 offrtg
127.9 defrtg

-20.6 netrtg

Their starting lineup is basically the worst defensive team of all time.

I haven't seen the Pels much lately but that seems surprising, i thought that the calling card of Herb Jones was defense and that BI and Murphy were + defenders.

Zion is NOT a good defender, you might assume defense would actually get better with him out and Murphy in.

They also have Grand Theft Alvarado coming off the bench, and coming into the season everyone assumed they had a "deep" team.

Even factoring in the Zion loss it feels like they are underperforming.

Yeah, it’s confusing as to why they are so bad. I would say Murphy is not a good defender. Jones can’t shoot this year. BI is probably below average defensively. CJ and JV are not good. They still shouldn’t be this awful defensively. I think Zion has progressed to “ok” as a defender but he’s not near good enough to lift this team defensively. NBA.com doesn’t allow me to break down transition stats by date ranges so I can’t separate for when Zion was in the lineup.

My theory: the current starters have been bad offensively this year. Zion, while not great defensively is maybe the best player at getting to the rim in the league. He is also an incredible finisher and draws fouls. High volume super efficient rim scoring makes it very tough for opposing teams to a) get out in transition and b) allows the Pels to get back on defense because the other team is inbounding the ball. Even bad defensive teams can do ok if they have time to setup their half court defense. I don’t know if the transition numbers bare this out, but it sort of makes sense as to why they are better defensively with Zion.

Or maybe Zion is a great defender, that shift the opposing team offense to either attack him or watch out for him,
Like how teams use to/(sometimes still do) game plan to attack curry to wear him down so he can be tired offensively, only difference is Zion is well Zion, and that strategy helps Jv/nance be better rim protectors

To say Zion isn’t a good defender when his team literally statiscally becomes the worst defensive team of all time when he’s out is well…ummm