Forgotten by time: the Olajuwon/Drexler/Barkley (& Pippen) Houston Rockets

[TrentTuckerRule]

Will we ever see another conf Finals team where nobody averages more than 13 ppg?

Hardly possible with almost everyone jacking up three pointers all night long.

[LakersLegacy]

Barkley had 4 seasons with Houston.

2 with drexler and Hakeem
1 with pippen and Hakeem
1 with just Hakeem

—-
Rockets would have been so much better off with Horry and Jason Kidd than Barkley on his fairwell tour. We didn’t have team ups really besides the 2008 Celtics and 2011 Heat. Duncan didn’t join TMac. Robinson, Manu, Parker, Bowen, Jax were better anyway.

It would be great to not have team ups for a decade. That was the gift the league got after the Rockets

[Slurpin]

They weren't worth remembering

[tsherkin]

The problem was the Rockets before the trade still didn't really look like they could beat that Sonics team...which honestly should have played the bulls 3 straight finals, but clearly they didn't maintain their 96 form either. At the time it looked like you had to upgrade if you wanted a shot there.

Yeah, I mean I think at that point their window was done regardless. But Chuck and Dream together wasn't ever really a bright move. That first year, they were close but for an illegal screen in the WCFs. Or at least that would have led to another game in the series and we could have seen what would have happened. But it did not, sadly.

[JustBuzzin]

That team was never a superteam.

People only called them that because they were once great players. By that time all 3 were washed players.

[dhsilv2]

The problem was the Rockets before the trade still didn't really look like they could beat that Sonics team...which honestly should have played the bulls 3 straight finals, but clearly they didn't maintain their 96 form either. At the time it looked like you had to upgrade if you wanted a shot there.

Yeah, I mean I think at that point their window was done regardless. But Chuck and Dream together wasn't ever really a bright move. That first year, they were close but for an illegal screen in the WCFs. Or at least that would have led to another game in the series and we could have seen what would have happened. But it did not, sadly.

I still feel if they'd had a legit point, we really could have had something. Instead they had a rookie starting at point guard in the playoffs. He did outstanding to be completely fair to him. At least for what he was asked but he wasn't a legit vet point. They didn't need a star just someone who'd been there before.

[tsherkin]

I still feel if they'd had a legit point, we really could have had something. Instead they had a rookie starting at point guard in the playoffs. He did outstanding to be completely fair to him. At least for what he was asked but he wasn't a legit vet point. They didn't need a star just someone who'd been there before.

They gave up spacing and point play to get Barkley. They did better in the 97 RS than the year before, sure, but I dunno, man. Drexler had been injured in 96, only playing 52 games. Mario Elie played half a season. CASSELL missed like 20 games. Kenny Smith missed 15 games or so. Dream missed 10.

Evaluating them based on that seems shortsighted to me. Granted, they got WRECKED by Seattle. Had no ability to stop the Sonics offense and didn't look good themselves on O. Dream didn't score well in that series and Seattle ate them alive across three different 20 ppg guys. So yeah, I can understand the impulse. And it was a tough, 7-game series against Seattle with Barkley, who was actually the worst scorer of the big three in that series. Hooray for Dream figuring out the Sonics defense, Barkley's Q2 in Game 7 and for Chuck's offensive rebounding, I guess, heh.

[dhsilv2]

I still feel if they'd had a legit point, we really could have had something. Instead they had a rookie starting at point guard in the playoffs. He did outstanding to be completely fair to him. At least for what he was asked but he wasn't a legit vet point. They didn't need a star just someone who'd been there before.

They gave up spacing and point play to get Barkley. They did better in the 97 RS than the year before, sure, but I dunno, man. Drexler had been injured in 96, only playing 52 games. Mario Elie played half a season. CASSELL missed like 20 games. Kenny Smith missed 15 games or so. Dream missed 10.

Evaluating them based on that seems shortsighted to me. Granted, they got WRECKED by Seattle. Had no ability to stop the Sonics offense and didn't look good themselves on O. Dream didn't score well in that series and Seattle ate them alive across three different 20 ppg guys. So yeah, I can understand the impulse. And it was a tough, 7-game series against Seattle with Barkley, who was actually the worst scorer of the big three in that series. Hooray for Dream figuring out the Sonics defense, Barkley's Q2 in Game 7 and for Chuck's offensive rebounding, I guess, heh.

Sonics were always imo a problem for the rockets and they were lucky to avoid them during that 2 year run. The difference is by 96 it looked like the Sonics were going to just be THE team from the west, not the jazz. Payton and Kemp looked like a duo that could win multiple titles and they had such a deep (all be it older) team around them. Those sonics were deep and talented.

[tsherkin]

I still feel if they'd had a legit point, we really could have had something. Instead they had a rookie starting at point guard in the playoffs. He did outstanding to be completely fair to him. At least for what he was asked but he wasn't a legit vet point. They didn't need a star just someone who'd been there before.

They gave up spacing and point play to get Barkley. They did better in the 97 RS than the year before, sure, but I dunno, man. Drexler had been injured in 96, only playing 52 games. Mario Elie played half a season. CASSELL missed like 20 games. Kenny Smith missed 15 games or so. Dream missed 10.

Evaluating them based on that seems shortsighted to me. Granted, they got WRECKED by Seattle. Had no ability to stop the Sonics offense and didn't look good themselves on O. Dream didn't score well in that series and Seattle ate them alive across three different 20 ppg guys. So yeah, I can understand the impulse. And it was a tough, 7-game series against Seattle with Barkley, who was actually the worst scorer of the big three in that series. Hooray for Dream figuring out the Sonics defense, Barkley's Q2 in Game 7 and for Chuck's offensive rebounding, I guess, heh.

Sonics were always imo a problem for the rockets and they were lucky to avoid them during that 2 year run. The difference is by 96 it looked like the Sonics were going to just be THE team from the west, not the jazz. Payton and Kemp looked like a duo that could win multiple titles and they had such a deep (all be it older) team around them. Those sonics were deep and talented.

Seattle was bad-ass, no question about it.

[Tomtolbert]

By the time Pippen joined, Olajuwon's defense had been declining a good amount. But it would have been fun to watch those two in their primes anchor a defense.

[tsherkin]

By the time Pippen joined, Olajuwon's defense had been declining a good amount. But it would have been fun to watch those two in their primes anchor a defense.

Yeah, I mean by even 97, he was 34, it was his last AS season, he'd lost some mobility. He'd tailed off considerably after 95.

[scrabbarista]

I'm from Houston. These teams occurred during my high school and college years.

Probably, the trade for Barkley was a mistake. However, it's not 100% certain.

What I remember from that era:

Barkley being the worst three-point shooters in NBA history. Every time he went into his shooting motion, I'd think, and sometimes say, "Noooooooo!!!!!" Of course, sometimes they went in, but they missed often enough that the sentiment persisted.

Barkley not helping protect the rim the way Horry would, or the way any "normal" big man would have in the instances where Barkley played with the bench units while Hakeem was on the bench. (I could be wrong, but I think they played through Barkley a lot when Olajuwon was on the bench.) His defense, not necessarily through lack of effort, was a real minus, considering he was supposed to be a big man.

Barkley is possibly the strongest player I've ever seen. I think he picked up Shaq once in a fight. He could move pretty much anyone he wanted to, and that's part of what made him a phenomenal rebounder, including during his time in Houston.

The ball movement took a drastic turn for the worse when Barkley arrived, in spite of Barkley's being a good passer. Instead of four out with Olajuwon down low, the team had to have two or three out while Barkley and Olajuwon played opposite sides of the paint from the free-throw line in. The team became much, much more iso-heavy when Barkley arrived. I don't remember when it occurred, but the rule about backing a man down for five seconds or whatever wasn't known as "the Barkley rule" for nothing.

Reading through my memories, I think I feel a lot more confident that the Barkley trade was in fact a mistake.

Pippen? He kind of sucked, to be honest. He was pretty useless on offense. Before he arrived, there was hope that he could be the offensive engine, as the rest of the guys were all past their primes. It was an exercise in futility. He just didn't have the ball skills, the shot creation, or the mentality to initiate at the level that the team needed. The team was asking Dream, Drex, and Barkley to be glue guys (weird) and Pippen to be not a glue guy (also weird), and, unsurprisingly, it was a total failure. Watching Pippen on a regular basis in Houston really affected my opinion of his game in a majorly negative way. He kind of seemed like a total fraud as far as being a "star." Obviously, takes nothing away from his glorious accomplishments in Chicago. He's a Top 35 player of all time, which is no joke, but no one will ever convince me that he didn't benefit much more from Jordan (at least, as far as all-time rankings go!) than Jordan did from him.

[dhsilv2]

Watching Pippen on a regular basis in Houston really affected my opinion of his game in a majorly negative way. He kind of seemed like a total fraud as far as being a "star." Obviously, takes nothing away from his glorious accomplishments in Chicago. He's a Top 35 player of all time, which is no joke, but no one will ever convince me that he didn't benefit much more from Jordan (at least, as far as all-time rankings go!) than Jordan did from him.

His back was done by the rockets. He was such a shell of his former self athletically.

[scrabbarista]

I recall thinking this would be game over for the league...how stupid I was. Looking back, Chuck had become almost exclusively a post player who had a propensity to take stupid 3's. So playing next to Hakeem who creates 3's and wants the ball in the post is just a terrible idea. The rockets seemed decent however at getting them both good touches in the post. The real issue of course was going from having a legit high quality point guard (Cassell, who thanks to going to the bucks will never be remembered as nearly as good a point guard as he actually was) to what was it? Some 25 or something year old rookie point guard was running the show. I mean it was seriously a terrible fit and a classic example of 1+1=1 with compounding the same skills on a team vs having guys who complement each other.

Pippen was however a very good addition as he's much more a point than Drexler...but by then age was far too big a problem. Add in Pippen wasn't a catch and shoot guy and the rockets just wanted to throw the ball into the post to two aging big men who I suppose likely weren't still able to play with more movement and action.

Anyway I fondly remember this team as much through basketball cards as from sport center leading up to the season. During the season...they really weren't that much fun to watch.

1. Yes!

2. Cassell sits at 174th on my all-time spreadsheet this morning. He was very good. Houston probably doesn't win either of its titles without him. He was ready from Day 1. Playoff numbers in his first two seasons (two titles), over 44 games: 17.1 PER, .564 TS%, .390% from 3; PER100's: 24.7 PPG, 10.0 APG, 2.3 SPG, 4.4 TOPG. He was a legit championship sixth man (probably the best guard on the team) right away and later developed into either an All-Star or very close to one.

[scrabbarista]

I've just finished reading Pippen's book and I recollect him bringing up an issue of how fundamentally different Jackson's triangle offense and Houston's iso-heavy systems were. Can't say if that really was the case as I probably didn't watch any Hakeem/Chuck/Pip Rockets game.

Obviously the experiment didn't pan out as planned.

On a side note I think those jerseys were nightmarish.

Jerseys were an abomination.

Yes, the post-title Tomjanovich teams seemed to grow increasingly iso-heavy with every year that passed, even beyond Hakeem's retirement. Pippen's game was suited to the exact opposite of this. A good passer, an all-time cutter, a bad shooter, unable to create for himself... I guess he should be pitied for his fit in Houston, but then again, he was in a perfect situation in Chicago for most of his career.

[dhsilv2]

I recall thinking this would be game over for the league...how stupid I was. Looking back, Chuck had become almost exclusively a post player who had a propensity to take stupid 3's. So playing next to Hakeem who creates 3's and wants the ball in the post is just a terrible idea. The rockets seemed decent however at getting them both good touches in the post. The real issue of course was going from having a legit high quality point guard (Cassell, who thanks to going to the bucks will never be remembered as nearly as good a point guard as he actually was) to what was it? Some 25 or something year old rookie point guard was running the show. I mean it was seriously a terrible fit and a classic example of 1+1=1 with compounding the same skills on a team vs having guys who complement each other.

Pippen was however a very good addition as he's much more a point than Drexler...but by then age was far too big a problem. Add in Pippen wasn't a catch and shoot guy and the rockets just wanted to throw the ball into the post to two aging big men who I suppose likely weren't still able to play with more movement and action.

Anyway I fondly remember this team as much through basketball cards as from sport center leading up to the season. During the season...they really weren't that much fun to watch.

1. Yes!

2. Cassell sits at 174th on my all-time spreadsheet this morning. He was very good. Houston probably doesn't win either of its titles without him. He was ready from Day 1. Playoff numbers in his first two seasons (two titles), over 44 games: 17.1 PER, .564 TS%, .390% from 3; PER100's: 24.7 PPG, 10.0 APG, 2.3 SPG, 4.4 TOPG. He was a legit championship sixth man (probably the best guard on the team) right away and later developed into either an All-Star or very close to one.

If he'd gotten some better situations instead of the bucks, I think cassell could be a guy we all debate hall or not with. Not sure he could have been a clear hall guy...but the way he looked next to KG. How disciplined he was on the rockets. Maybe with the right guys he's a 5x nba champ and first ballot guy. Hard to say as he was just such a smart and under control player.

[scrabbarista]

Watching Pippen on a regular basis in Houston really affected my opinion of his game in a majorly negative way. He kind of seemed like a total fraud as far as being a "star." Obviously, takes nothing away from his glorious accomplishments in Chicago. He's a Top 35 player of all time, which is no joke, but no one will ever convince me that he didn't benefit much more from Jordan (at least, as far as all-time rankings go!) than Jordan did from him.

His back was done by the rockets. He was such a shell of his former self athletically.

I could see that. [EDIT: I mean I can see your point, not that I could see it at the time.] I watched him plenty in Chicago, too.

[tsherkin]

I've just finished reading Pippen's book and I recollect him bringing up an issue of how fundamentally different Jackson's triangle offense and Houston's iso-heavy systems were. Can't say if that really was the case as I probably didn't watch any Hakeem/Chuck/Pip Rockets game.

Obviously the experiment didn't pan out as planned.

On a side note I think those jerseys were nightmarish.

Jerseys were an abomination.

Yes, the post-title Tomjanovich teams seemed to grow increasingly iso-heavy with every year that passed, even beyond Hakeem's retirement. Pippen's game was suited to the exact opposite of this. A good passer, an all-time cutter, a bad shooter, unable to create for himself... I guess he should be pitied for his fit in Houston, but then again, he was in a perfect situation in Chicago for most of his career.

Yes, this. Scottie didn't have a super advanced dribble iso game and he didn't have quite the shot he needed. 97 and later, he was actually shooting pretty well on long twos, but he gave it up at the line and from 3. And of course he never really got back to where he'd been beneath the arc in Chicago, losing out on transition opportunities as the league slowed down and all that, too.

[dhsilv2]

I've just finished reading Pippen's book and I recollect him bringing up an issue of how fundamentally different Jackson's triangle offense and Houston's iso-heavy systems were. Can't say if that really was the case as I probably didn't watch any Hakeem/Chuck/Pip Rockets game.

Obviously the experiment didn't pan out as planned.

On a side note I think those jerseys were nightmarish.

Jerseys were an abomination.

Yes, the post-title Tomjanovich teams seemed to grow increasingly iso-heavy with every year that passed, even beyond Hakeem's retirement. Pippen's game was suited to the exact opposite of this. A good passer, an all-time cutter, a bad shooter, unable to create for himself... I guess he should be pitied for his fit in Houston, but then again, he was in a perfect situation in Chicago for most of his career.

Yes, this. Scottie didn't have a super advanced dribble iso game and he didn't have quite the shot he needed. 97 and later, he was actually shooting pretty well on long twos, but he gave it up at the line and from 3. And of course he never really got back to where he'd been beneath the arc in Chicago, losing out on transition opportunities as the league slowed down and all that, too.

Pippen is weird in that he was a legit point guard with his decision making and passing. He had a decent post game, but more situational. He had an insane first step until his early mid 30's with the bulls. An all time elite transition guy. And then...well, he was pretty average beyond that. All that was enough to make him a top 30 offensive guy at worst if not top 15. And then on the otherside he was just an insane defender. And while defense drops off for "athletic" first offensive guys...his length and understanding of angles and positioning made him an elite defender mostly till the end.

[tsherkin]

Pippen is weird in that he was a legit point guard with his decision making and passing. He had a decent post game, but more situational. He had an insane first step until his early mid 30's with the bulls. An all time elite transition guy. And then...well, he was pretty average beyond that. All that was enough to make him a top 30 offensive guy at worst if not top 15. And then on the otherside he was just an insane defender. And while defense drops off for "athletic" first offensive guys...his length and understanding of angles and positioning made him an elite defender mostly till the end.

His post game was okay, for sure. He was quite long-limbed and athletic, which helped. And yes, Phil always spoke about how Scottie was the quickest to pick up the triangle, knew its ins and outs the best, etc. A sharp mind. Dangerous as it gets in transition with his physical tools. And yes, his defense was remarkably good. He was still quite good even in Portland, for sure, even with his back issues. Couldn't rock out 38 mpg or anything anymore, but he was still good when he was on the floor.