How many games do the 2009 Lakers win without Kobe?

[Bornstellar]

50+ wins most likely. Not like it matters though. Pippen won 55 games without Jordan but couldn't get it done in the playoffs. Likewise, the Lakers would have a good RS record but without Kobe they're not making it to the Finals. All time players are the difference between being a good team and an elite team

[Iwasawitness]

People don’t seem to realize just how good Pau was, especially in that system. I can very easily see the Lakers winning 50 games without Kobe.

[FrobeBryant]

Where's the less than 40 option? This takes the cake for being one of the dumbest anti-Kobe posts in RGM. Pau was good, but the rest of that roster is not winning more than 35 games.

[SK21209]

Probably better than if you took pau out and it was Kobe instead.

Very likely.

Depends if Bynum is healthy. With Bynum, they were at the top of the West in 08 before the Gasol trade.

[ROballer]

I watched the whole 2008/2009 Lakers season and Bynum had missed some time but he played the majority of games (50) as well as every playoff game. In regards to the regular season Bynum was a staple and a big part of the rotation and literally started every single game that he played, right next to Pau. It was only in the playoffs when Phil leaned more heavily on Odom.

Trevor Ariza had a breakout season as a quality rotation player to his credit and continued to progress in his career long after the Lakers/Kobe. His raw counting stats of course were never going to pop out as he was the 4th option at best offensively but he had great impact stats and better advanced metrics (VORP, bpm, etc) than Ron Artest had the following year.

Phil would have most likely started Luke Walton or Sasha the majority of games if he chose to continue to bring Odom off the bench in Kobe's absence. Fisher was a quality player and had high impact stats beyond his raw counting numbers as well that year. Odom was our valuable "Swiss army knife" player.

I'm a fan of Kobe, he was a great player but that 2008/2009 Lakers team was certainly deep with elite size, good coaching and had a solid combination of youth and players in their prime. It's not a knock on Kobe to suggest they would have won 45 games (20 less than their 65 total wins) which would place them just a game behind the 9th seed.

Uhm, 50 games is not the majority of an 82 games season. It's barely more than half.
And he was definitely not right, he was coming after that major 2007-2008 injury that put an end to his season. Lakers were at the top of the West even without Gasol with that version of Bynum.
The 2008-2009 version albeit still good, was nowhere near as explosive after the knee injury.

And 32 games missed are still a boatload to shoulder without Kobe.


You still haven't adressed the rest of my post though. Who gets a shot off the dribble on that team? Who is the finisher?
You're vastly undervaluing Kobe's mere presence on the court, which almost always attracted a double team if not a triple.

That's how the rest of the guys got their shots from, mostly wide open as well. Now substract that presence and see what happens.

Show me an instance in which Fisher/Vujacic/Ariza/Walton/Radmanovic got a good shot off which wasn't a direct swing pass and a wide open spot up shot. There are probably very few instances if any.


The West was very very good that year, it took 49 wins to make the playoffs. Lakers played 3 or 4 times against every team in the West. I'm curious to see from where the +45 wins guys think the wins would have come.

[One_and_Done]

Probably better than if you took pau out and it was Kobe instead.

Very likely.

Depends if Bynum is healthy. With Bynum, they were at the top of the West in 08 before the Gasol trade.

Bynum played 50 games, so that's plenty to help juice the RS wins. Pau and Odom are the 1-2 punch.

[Up-And-Coming]

I watched the whole 2008/2009 Lakers season and Bynum had missed some time but he played the majority of games (50) as well as every playoff game. In regards to the regular season Bynum was a staple and a big part of the rotation and literally started every single game that he played, right next to Pau. It was only in the playoffs when Phil leaned more heavily on Odom.

Trevor Ariza had a breakout season as a quality rotation player to his credit and continued to progress in his career long after the Lakers/Kobe. His raw counting stats of course were never going to pop out as he was the 4th option at best offensively but he had great impact stats and better advanced metrics (VORP, bpm, etc) than Ron Artest had the following year.

Phil would have most likely started Luke Walton or Sasha the majority of games if he chose to continue to bring Odom off the bench in Kobe's absence. Fisher was a quality player and had high impact stats beyond his raw counting numbers as well that year. Odom was our valuable "Swiss army knife" player.

I'm a fan of Kobe, he was a great player but that 2008/2009 Lakers team was certainly deep with elite size, good coaching and had a solid combination of youth and players in their prime. It's not a knock on Kobe to suggest they would have won 45 games (20 less than their 65 total wins) which would place them just a game behind the 9th seed.

Uhm, 50 games is not the majority of an 82 games season. It's barely more than half.
And he was definitely not right, he was coming after that major 2007-2008 injury that put an end to his season. Lakers were at the top of the West even without Gasol with that version of Bynum.
The 2008-2009 version albeit still good, was nowhere near as explosive after the knee injury.

And 32 games missed are still a boatload to shoulder without Kobe.


You still haven't adressed the rest of my post though. Who gets a shot off the dribble on that team? Who is the finisher?
You're vastly undervaluing Kobe's mere presence on the court, which almost always attracted a double team if not a triple.

That's how the rest of the guys got their shots from, mostly wide open as well. Now substract that presence and see what happens.

Show me an instance in which Fisher/Vujacic/Ariza/Walton/Radmanovic got a good shot off which wasn't a direct swing pass and a wide open spot up shot. There are probably very few instances if any.


The West was very very good that year, it took 49 wins to make the playoffs. Lakers played 3 or 4 times against every team in the West. I'm curious to see from where the +45 wins guys think the wins would have come.

While 32 missed is a good chunk, 50 games out of 82 is still the majority. Yes he was coming off an injury but he was still the Lakers 3rd best player during the regular season. Pau has always been a good passer at the PF/Center position and made a concerted effort to find Bynum.

In regards to shot creation, Pau Gasol already had a history of leading his Memphis team at 25 years old to a playoff birth and near 50 win season in the tough Western Conference as their best player without Kobe. Pau's second best player was Shane Battier? Young Mike Miller? 2008/2009 Pau Gasol was a better Prime Pau too. Lamar Odom and Bynum were the #2 and #3 players on prior playoff squads as well. Pau and Lamar were one of the best passers at their position. They can create a shot for others or for themselves and Bynum was a bucket posting up. Not to mention the Triangle Offense also encouraged spacing and ball movement which would help with shot creation as well. Don't forget in the 2000's post play was arguably still more important than off the dribble, pick and roll/guard play, etc. Shots were created from the inside out and the Lakers were the best at that.

Kobe was great but I just think you're underselling the supporting cast which featured a legitimate All-Star in Pau, soon-to-be All-Star in Bynum and several of the better starting quality "role players" of their generation in Lamar Odom, Derek Fisher and Trevor Ariza. I think that squad led by one of the best coaches in Phil Jackson could have gotten to 45 wins (remember they won 65 games w/ Kobe).

[ReginaldDwight]

Lol didnt vote cause I dont think they win 40 games. Lots of guys who looked like players cause they played off Kobe. Nephew thread confirmed.

[One_and_Done]

Lol didnt vote cause I dont think they win 40 games. Lots of guys who looked like players cause they played off Kobe. Nephew thread confirmed.

I mean, it's true if you say so. Who are these overrated guys? Pau who led 3 nothing teams to 50-ish wins in the tough WC? Odom who was the best player on a playoff team before he came to the Lakers? Radmanovic who got paid based on being a good role player on the 52 win Sonics? Ariza who had a long and respected career as a 3&D wing on numerous teams? I'm not seeing it.

[Yoshun]

That team won 65 games.

I'm going to say in the 45-50 wins area. They make the playoffs, but they're not really contenders. Kobe was an absolute beast in the playoffs that season.

[ReginaldDwight]

Lol didnt vote cause I dont think they win 40 games. Lots of guys who looked like players cause they played off Kobe. Nephew thread confirmed.

I mean, it's true if you say so. Who are thrse overrated guys? Pau who led 3 nothing teams to 50-ish wins in the tough WC? Odom who was the best player on a playoff team before he came to the Lakers? Radmanovic who got paid based on being a good role player on the 52 win Sonics? I'm not seeing it.

Theres a reason you didnt put under 40 wins as an option nephew

[One_and_Done]

I didn't put over 65 wins either. I didn't see the point listing stuff that preposterous.

[One_and_Done]

I watched the whole 2008/2009 Lakers season and Bynum had missed some time but he played the majority of games (50) as well as every playoff game. In regards to the regular season Bynum was a staple and a big part of the rotation and literally started every single game that he played, right next to Pau. It was only in the playoffs when Phil leaned more heavily on Odom.

Trevor Ariza had a breakout season as a quality rotation player to his credit and continued to progress in his career long after the Lakers/Kobe. His raw counting stats of course were never going to pop out as he was the 4th option at best offensively but he had great impact stats and better advanced metrics (VORP, bpm, etc) than Ron Artest had the following year.

Phil would have most likely started Luke Walton or Sasha the majority of games if he chose to continue to bring Odom off the bench in Kobe's absence. Fisher was a quality player and had high impact stats beyond his raw counting numbers as well that year. Odom was our valuable "Swiss army knife" player.

I'm a fan of Kobe, he was a great player but that 2008/2009 Lakers team was certainly deep with elite size, good coaching and had a solid combination of youth and players in their prime. It's not a knock on Kobe to suggest they would have won 45 games (20 less than their 65 total wins) which would place them just a game behind the 9th seed.

Uhm, 50 games is not the majority of an 82 games season. It's barely more than half.
And he was definitely not right, he was coming after that major 2007-2008 injury that put an end to his season. Lakers were at the top of the West even without Gasol with that version of Bynum.
The 2008-2009 version albeit still good, was nowhere near as explosive after the knee injury.

And 32 games missed are still a boatload to shoulder without Kobe.


You still haven't adressed the rest of my post though. Who gets a shot off the dribble on that team? Who is the finisher?
You're vastly undervaluing Kobe's mere presence on the court, which almost always attracted a double team if not a triple.

That's how the rest of the guys got their shots from, mostly wide open as well. Now substract that presence and see what happens.

Show me an instance in which Fisher/Vujacic/Ariza/Walton/Radmanovic got a good shot off which wasn't a direct swing pass and a wide open spot up shot. There are probably very few instances if any.


The West was very very good that year, it took 49 wins to make the playoffs. Lakers played 3 or 4 times against every team in the West. I'm curious to see from where the +45 wins guys think the wins would have come.

While 32 missed is a good chunk, 50 games out of 82 is still the majority. Yes he was coming off an injury but he was still the Lakers 3rd best player during the regular season. Pau has always been a good passer at the PF/Center position and made a concerted effort to find Bynum.

In regards to shot creation, Pau Gasol already had a history of leading his Memphis team at 25 years old to a playoff birth and near 50 win season in the tough Western Conference as their best player without Kobe. Pau's second best player was Shane Battier? Young Mike Miller? 2008/2009 Pau Gasol was a better Prime Pau too. Lamar Odom and Bynum were the #2 and #3 players on prior playoff squads as well. Pau and Lamar were one of the best passers at their position. They can create a shot for others or for themselves and Bynum was a bucket posting up. Not to mention the Triangle Offense also encouraged spacing and ball movement which would help with shot creation as well. Don't forget in the 2000's post play was arguably still more important than off the dribble, pick and roll/guard play, etc. Shots were created from the inside out and the Lakers were the best at that.

Kobe was great but I just think you're underselling the supporting cast which featured a legitimate All-Star in Pau, soon-to-be All-Star in Bynum and several of the better starting quality "role players" of their generation in Lamar Odom, Derek Fisher and Trevor Ariza. I think that squad led by one of the best coaches in Phil Jackson could have gotten to 45 wins (remember they won 65 games w/ Kobe).

Good to see someone giving Pau the credit he deserves.

[SlimShady83]

[dockingsched]

That Pau/Bynum/Odom big man rotation was special, so versatile, so skilled. They’d pile up their fair share of wins for sure.

[shi-woo]

I was looking at that roster the other day and forgot Ariza was on that team. Another thing that stood out to me was that Fisher still had a solid year even at his age. As always, this team would go as far as Bynum's health would take them.

People will hate on Bynum, and the time he missed, but he was still able to play in the playyoffs every year of that Lakers run with the exception of 2008.

Bynum was one of the better centers in the NBA, and biggest players. Dude averaged 17/11 with 3 blocks in the 2012 playoffs. Gasol was probably the best PF in the game at that point once KG got hurt, and Ariza and Odom were fantastic role players. Ariza was one of the most sought after free agents to a decade after that, and for good reason. He was the poster child of 6'8 3D players for the league. Odom was the best 6th man in the NBA at that time, and was a veteran starter who was a walking dbl dbl mismatch.

Gasol- Bynum
Odom- Radmonavic
Ariza- Walton
Vuc- Brown
Fisher- Farmar

That team would win around 40 games, and an easy 50+ if you replaced Kobe with a lesser player like Monta Ellis.

Those Lakers teams were legit good.

[Edrees]

The poll options tell you the bias and intent of this this thread. 30-40 should at least be an option, it's not like you ran out of room. You forget Bynum and Pau EACH missed 17 games that season. Lamar Odom wasn't great as a starter. He was only great off the bench. He would be ineffective for those 17 games without Pau especially.

I'm going to vote for 0 games just to bring the average response down.

I didn't put over 65 wins either. I didn't see the point listing stuff that preposterous.

60 games for that team without Kobe, Bynum missing 17 games and Pau missing 17 games is preposterous. If you had only listed 50+ you could make this case. How hard is it to list an other option?