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Fadeaway_Jumper wrote:Jokic is holding the title of best player in the league because of a combination of his dominance, availability to stay on the court, and sustained playoff performance. Murray has been an amazing running mate that has turned into the closer, when the Nuggets need a basket in a tight game.

These guys are good, but no where near as dominant, and legendary as Shaq & Kobe were. Especially on defense. Makes you wonder how many titles they would have won if you dropped them off in this era.

They aren’t running the league. They have a championship, but right now their team isn’t even considered the best in their own conference. Let’s at least wait and see what happens during this postseason.

The reason Denver’s supporting cast looks so good is because of Jokic. When people constantly say Denver has the perfectly cohesive starting 5, what they’re really saying is Jokic is the hub that brings everything together unlike any other player. The rest of the starting five was a collection of misfits and underachievers until Jokic hit his prime and elevated them all.

As far as Shaq vs Jokic, Jokic is clearly better offensively. Shaq had some clear weaknesses whereas Jokic doesn’t have any. I think Shaq is better defensively but it’s really hard to say how he’d look on defence in this era. Regardless they’re both extremely dominant and would dominate in any era of basketball.

As far as Denver being a watered down Shaq/Kobe Lakers, this is typical “everything that happened in the past is better than everything happening now” type of nostalgia. Let’s just call Shaq and Jokic equal. Kobe was about equal to Murray in the playoffs but clearly better in the regular season. Then we have Denver’s supporting cast which appears better than LA’s but my argument is that this is in large part due to Jokic elevating his supporting cast far more than Shaq and Kobe every could.

Chokic wrote:This thread is proof how overrated jokic is by rgm. The dude won only 1 title and won two possibly 3 mvps off extremely good circumstances of embiid being injured and is annointed as better than mj shaq and kobe lol

If you don't see Jokic as better than Kobe already it's just proof of how bad you are judging players

TheGeneral99 wrote:As you noted - Jokic and Murray are better than Shaq and Kobe on the offensive end.

Where did he note that? He said no such thing

They struggled against 2 teams that played like modern teams, Blazers and Kings, they also needed the refs help. Keep reachin

LeBronSpaghetti wrote:The reason Denver’s supporting cast looks so good is because of Jokic. When people constantly say Denver has the perfectly cohesive starting 5, what they’re really saying is Jokic is the hub that brings everything together unlike any other player. The rest of the starting five was a collection of misfits and underachievers until Jokic hit his prime and elevated them all.

As far as Shaq vs Jokic, Jokic is clearly better offensively. Shaq had some clear weaknesses whereas Jokic doesn’t have any. I think Shaq is better defensively but it’s really hard to say how he’d look on defence in this era. Regardless they’re both extremely dominant and would dominate in any era of basketball.

As far as Denver being a watered down Shaq/Kobe Lakers, this is typical “everything that happened in the past is better than everything happening now” type of nostalgia. Let’s just call Shaq and Jokic equal. Kobe was about equal to Murray in the playoffs but clearly better in the regular season. Then we have Denver’s supporting cast which appears better than LA’s but my argument is that this is in large part due to Jokic elevating his supporting cast far more than Shaq and Kobe every could.

Honestly I don't think Shaq has a good argument for being being better defensively. Jokic conditioning is just so much better than Shaq was for a majority of his career. He is so much more active on that end

Chokic wrote:This thread is proof how overrated jokic is by rgm. The dude won only 1 title and won two possibly 3 mvps off extremely good circumstances of embiid being injured and is annointed as better than mj shaq and kobe lol

"Only won one title" as if there weren't unusual circumstances in every other year where he was an MVP candidate lol.

Literally lost to WC Champions, and NBA Champions, with his 2nd option in a suit on the bench. Would love to see how Shaq gets through Spurs with Kobe on the bench in a suit taking up a max contract slot...now add option #3 next to him in a suit and expect Shaq to win it all.

Vice versa with Kobe.

There's gonna be some big mad haters when Jokic wins his 2nd ring to go with 3rd MVP this year

nikster wrote:

Chokic wrote:This thread is proof how overrated jokic is by rgm. The dude won only 1 title and won two possibly 3 mvps off extremely good circumstances of embiid being injured and is annointed as better than mj shaq and kobe lol

If you don't see Jokic as better than Kobe already it's just proof of how bad you are judging players

Guy's name is Chokic, it's not worth reading what he says.

nikster wrote:

LeBronSpaghetti wrote:The reason Denver’s supporting cast looks so good is because of Jokic. When people constantly say Denver has the perfectly cohesive starting 5, what they’re really saying is Jokic is the hub that brings everything together unlike any other player. The rest of the starting five was a collection of misfits and underachievers until Jokic hit his prime and elevated them all.

As far as Shaq vs Jokic, Jokic is clearly better offensively. Shaq had some clear weaknesses whereas Jokic doesn’t have any. I think Shaq is better defensively but it’s really hard to say how he’d look on defence in this era. Regardless they’re both extremely dominant and would dominate in any era of basketball.

As far as Denver being a watered down Shaq/Kobe Lakers, this is typical “everything that happened in the past is better than everything happening now” type of nostalgia. Let’s just call Shaq and Jokic equal. Kobe was about equal to Murray in the playoffs but clearly better in the regular season. Then we have Denver’s supporting cast which appears better than LA’s but my argument is that this is in large part due to Jokic elevating his supporting cast far more than Shaq and Kobe every could.

Honestly I don't think Shaq has a good argument for being being better defensively. Jokic conditioning is just so much better than Shaq was for a majority of his career. He is so much more active on that end

Yeah I mean we all clearly overrate blocks and underrate everything else defensively so I think this always hurts Jokic in these conversations. But at the end of the day the Nuggets are a very good defensive team and Jokic is a big part of that.

Jokic is better than Shaq, Kobe was better than Murray

They would have to adjust their playstyle a little bit to succeed in the modern NBA but I have no doubt they would if that's what it takes to win, and they definitely had the talent.

TwitterFingers wrote:Jokic is better than Shaq, Kobe was better than Murray

Yeah, a couple of key performances notwithstanding, I think we realize that Kobe (at least prime Kobe) was better than Murray is right now. Certainly in the RS. Murray has actually struggled quite notably during the RS, and it's worth noting that last year, while he was +2.0% over playoff league average, he was only about +1.5% rTS relative to regular season league average TS% during the PS. It wasn't an epic run, it was a solid run punctuated with some timely performances. Big highs, big lows. And he was 5/17 and 6/15 in the last two games versus Miami. He did other things, of course, but like, he is remembered for his scoring and he faded out pretty hard at the end in that regard.

2000 Kobe, sure. 26 year-old Murray is better than 2000 Kobe. 4th year in the league, 2nd year as a full-time starter, 21 years old. Pretty good versus the Kings, kinda bleh versus the Suns, big Game 6 versus the Blazers (kinda sucked in game 7, though, despite leading the team in scoring). Total dog-ass against the Pacers. Very up and down.

But that started to change a lot in 2001, which is worth remembering (apart from the Philly series).

Harry Garris wrote:They would have to adjust their playstyle a little bit to succeed in the modern NBA but I have no doubt they would if that's what it takes to win, and they definitely had the talent.

They'd be interesting. They had the right idea. Fisher, Rice/Fox and Horry were designed as spacers. They'd need a more contemporary offensive system than the triangle, but a lot of the basic ideas were in place. I think they'd need a little more punch from #3, and that'd probably have to come from a wing or PG who could spam PnR and stuff, but they could make it happen.

Fadeaway_Jumper wrote:Jokic is holding the title of best player in the league because of a combination of his dominance, availability to stay on the court, and sustained playoff performance. Murray has been an amazing running mate that has turned into the closer, when the Nuggets need a basket in a tight game.

These guys are good, but no where near as dominant, and legendary as Shaq & Kobe were. Especially on defense. Makes you wonder how many titles they would have won if you dropped them off in this era.

I didn't know "watered down" mean a) replacing a mediocre brain with a genius, while b) making a horrible shooter an elite one.

You learn something new every day.

Fadeaway_Jumper wrote:Especially on defense.

Nah Kobe and Shaq Lakers were nothing special defensively.

2000 Lakers were nice. Kobe was at the peak of his defensive role, and old man Ron Harper was still a very strong perimeter defender. Shaq was at his physical peak. Robert Horry was quietly one of the more versatile defenders in the NBA off the bench.

2002 was their next best defensive team (-2.8 rDrtg, 7th in the NBA). That team had a strong defensive bench (Lindsey Hunter, Robert Horry).

2001 the Lakers were defensive slackers who turned it up in the playoffs. By 2003, Kobe had long abandoned his ball-pressure role in favor of taking more shots, Shaq was breaking down, the role players were old.

All in all, the ShaqKobe era ranked 11th, 23rd, 1st, 21st, 7th, 19th, 8th.
Nuggets in this iteration (healthy Murray and Aaron Gordon on the team) have gone 15th and 7th. They may never reach the peak Lakers defense, but my money is on them being more consistent on that end. MPJ and Jokic get a little better on defense every year it feels like.

Chokic wrote:This thread is proof how overrated jokic is by rgm. The dude won only 1 title and won two possibly 3 mvps off extremely good circumstances of embiid being injured and is annointed as better than mj shaq and kobe lol

Lol, at championing Embiid. There are so many ifs when it comes to Embiid. With Jokic there is no ifs or hypotheticals, he just does.

nikster wrote:

Chokic wrote:This thread is proof how overrated jokic is by rgm. The dude won only 1 title and won two possibly 3 mvps off extremely good circumstances of embiid being injured and is annointed as better than mj shaq and kobe lol

If you don't see Jokic as better than Kobe already it's just proof of how bad you are judging players

It depends on the lens were looking at it. Some view "better" as skill level for their position some view as resume/accolades and some view as impact on their team. I think it's a combination of all 3.

Kobe as flawed as he was led his team to two titles. Not to mention Kobe was a huge catalyst for shaq led team to 3 titles. Without his performances in the playoffs lakers never 3 peat. He was also robbed of mvp back in 06.

Kobe is more lauded from his peers fans and basketball pundits from the stand point of his skill level and plethora of flashy spectacular moments he had in his career. He had more frills in his game whereas jokic is very simplistic in his approach to the game of basketball which makes him very efficient. His impact is higher than kobe I would concede that.

Doctor MJ wrote:

Fadeaway_Jumper wrote:Jokic is holding the title of best player in the league because of a combination of his dominance, availability to stay on the court, and sustained playoff performance. Murray has been an amazing running mate that has turned into the closer, when the Nuggets need a basket in a tight game.

These guys are good, but no where near as dominant, and legendary as Shaq & Kobe were. Especially on defense. Makes you wonder how many titles they would have won if you dropped them off in this era.

I didn't know "watered down" mean a) replacing a mediocre brain with a genius, while b) making a horrible shooter an elite one.

You learn something new every day.

I’m looking forward to seeing the Nuggets easily beat the Lakers 3-peat, and go for maybe 5 in row since they are both better than Shaq & Kobe. Great insight

something people overlook when talking about shaq being a liability is that in order to try to stop shaq you have to go back to playing guys that can't even get in the rotation right now... or don't play them and let shaq make layups and dunks at a rate that out-competes most efficient 3p performances that teams can reliably plan for (and/or get all your best guys in foul trouble, further decreasing your efficiency).

in shaq's time, big defenders who were otherwise liabilities were put in just to slow shaq down a little. they either do that or don't do that same thing today and both have consequences. your ability to play a modern style either takes a hit or you suck it up and try to shoot like 45% from three every time you play him.

Fadeaway_Jumper wrote:

Doctor MJ wrote:

Fadeaway_Jumper wrote:Jokic is holding the title of best player in the league because of a combination of his dominance, availability to stay on the court, and sustained playoff performance. Murray has been an amazing running mate that has turned into the closer, when the Nuggets need a basket in a tight game.

These guys are good, but no where near as dominant, and legendary as Shaq & Kobe were. Especially on defense. Makes you wonder how many titles they would have won if you dropped them off in this era.

I didn't know "watered down" mean a) replacing a mediocre brain with a genius, while b) making a horrible shooter an elite one.

You learn something new every day.

I’m looking forward to seeing the Nuggets easily beat the Lakers 3-peat, and go for maybe 5 in row since they are both better than Shaq & Kobe. Great insight

Well, first, they would because you couldn't win titles in today's game shooting as few 3's as those Lakers did - not a knock on those Lakers specifically, it's just that the reason why teams play differently today is because what they do today is strategically superior.

Second, to be clear, my statements were both about Shaq vs Jokic, not about the guard comparison - I wasn't calling Murray a genius or calling Kobe a horrible shooter.

I'll say it in no uncertain terms: I think Jokic is better in today's league than Shaq would be. The dynamics of the game just change quite a lot when you realize the value of the 3.