Did the greatness of Celtics role players devalued Tatum?

[brackdan70]

In the current era, there are 2 sure fire guys who are historically significant, Giannis and Jokic. And to a lesser extent, perhaps Doncic. These are legit transcendent players whose mere presence elevates team beyond what 99.9% other players could do.

Everyone else, including guys like Tatum, are great for their era, may win some titles, all nba, all star, etc, but almost all of that is circumstance, rather than individual contribution.

The Celtics are stacked, they all star or all star level guys all throughout their lineup. Tatum is an awesome player, but the honest truth is, you can swap him with like 15 different guys in the NBA and nothing changes for the Celtics.

Bingo.

Someone who gets it.

Maybe. Saying swap in any other top 15 guy and the Celtics still win doesn’t seem unreasonable.
The one thing that I would say is that Tatums ability to guard every position effectively on defense, beast rebounds and do it all on offense is pretty unique. Not many guys with the Combo of size, length, handles, shooting, and defensive chops exist in the league. So I don’t know about that statement even though I don’t strongly disagree.
Replace Tatum with a lead guard like Brunson, Edwards, Haliburton, Curry, Booker, Mitchell, etc…I don’t think they are as good, and those guys take minutes from White and JRue. You loose defense and rebounding. Do they still win? Maybe, but I don’t think they are as good. Replace him Lebron, Giannis, Jokic, Doncic, SGA…they are probably just as good, maybe better. Replace him with Paul George or Durrant they are probably equivalent. I think anyone else they don’t win it. Kawhi, Butler and Embiid are not healthy enough.
The Cs are stacked though, Tatum is a clear top 10 player, flirting with top 5. Brown is top 20, White is top 30, Prozingas and Holiday are top 50, and Horford is top 100. Tatum knows how to be effective distributing the ball, running the offense and playing solid team D. Its rarer than you think.

[SelfishPlayer]

Tatum is the most undeservingly over scrutinized NBA player in history. He's clearly not the absolute best player in the NBA, but people still struggle with where the place him and if he deserves that placement. One thing he hasn't failed to do is carry on the Celtics championship tradition. He hasn't fallen short of that, and it could have been damning if he never won it.

[bledredwine]

In the current era, there are 2 sure fire guys who are historically significant, Giannis and Jokic. And to a lesser extent, perhaps Doncic. These are legit transcendent players whose mere presence elevates team beyond what 99.9% other players could do.

Everyone else, including guys like Tatum, are great for their era, may win some titles, all nba, all star, etc, but almost all of that is circumstance, rather than individual contribution.

The Celtics are stacked, they all star or all star level guys all throughout their lineup. Tatum is an awesome player, but the honest truth is, you can swap him with like 15 different guys in the NBA and nothing changes for the Celtics.

Bingo.

Someone who gets it.

Maybe. Saying swap in any other top 15 guy and the Celtics still win doesn’t seem unreasonable.
The one thing that I would say is that Tatums ability to guard every position effectively on defense, beast rebounds and do it all on offense is pretty unique. Not many guys with the Combo of size, length, handles, shooting, and defensive chops exist in the league. So I don’t know about that statement even though I don’t strongly disagree.
Replace Tatum with a lead guard like Brunson, Edwards, Haliburton, Curry, Booker, Mitchell, etc…I don’t think they are as good, and those guys take minutes from White and JRue. You loose defense and rebounding. Do they still win? Maybe, but I don’t think they are as good. Replace him Lebron, Giannis, Jokic, Doncic, SGA…they are probably just as good, maybe better. Replace him with Paul George or Durrant they are probably equivalent. I think anyone else they don’t win it. Kawhi, Butler and Embiid are not healthy enough.
The Cs are stacked though, Tatum is a clear top 10 player, flirting with top 5. Brown is top 20, White is top 30, Prozingas and Holiday are top 50, and Horford is top 100. Tatum knows how to be effective distributing the ball, running the offense and playing solid team D. Its rarer than you think.

I agree with this as well. The Celtics are like the modern Spurs in that they thrive off of having dynamic players. Though I’ve openly called Tatum overrated for those who consider him top five, there’s no denying that he’s a versatile and dynamic team player.
Still, I do think the Celtics could have won it with some other players instead of him. Brunson included. I don’t consider Tatum a dominant player, but I respect that he contributes in multiple ways.

[tsherkin]

Tatum is the most undeservingly over scrutinized NBA player in history. He's clearly not the absolute best player in the NBA, but people still struggle with where the place him and if he deserves that placement. One thing he hasn't failed to do is carry on the Celtics championship tradition. He hasn't fallen short of that, and it could have been damning if he never won it.

I can't say I agree with this.

Some of his fans push his reputation/ranking a little far, and they get the expected pushback. That's about the extent of it. Most people recognize that he's very good, and that he runs light on dominant postseason performances, particularly in the Finals. At the same time, there's respect for the versatility of his game, how he fits into the team plan, his defense, his utility in the RS as a scorer, etc.

[brackdan70]

Bingo.

Someone who gets it.

Maybe. Saying swap in any other top 15 guy and the Celtics still win doesn’t seem unreasonable.
The one thing that I would say is that Tatums ability to guard every position effectively on defense, beast rebounds and do it all on offense is pretty unique. Not many guys with the Combo of size, length, handles, shooting, and defensive chops exist in the league. So I don’t know about that statement even though I don’t strongly disagree.
Replace Tatum with a lead guard like Brunson, Edwards, Haliburton, Curry, Booker, Mitchell, etc…I don’t think they are as good, and those guys take minutes from White and JRue. You loose defense and rebounding. Do they still win? Maybe, but I don’t think they are as good. Replace him Lebron, Giannis, Jokic, Doncic, SGA…they are probably just as good, maybe better. Replace him with Paul George or Durrant they are probably equivalent. I think anyone else they don’t win it. Kawhi, Butler and Embiid are not healthy enough.
The Cs are stacked though, Tatum is a clear top 10 player, flirting with top 5. Brown is top 20, White is top 30, Prozingas and Holiday are top 50, and Horford is top 100. Tatum knows how to be effective distributing the ball, running the offense and playing solid team D. Its rarer than you think.

I agree with this as well. The Celtics are like the modern Spurs in that they thrive off of having dynamic players. Though I’ve openly called Tatum overrated for those who consider him top five, there’s no denying that he’s a versatile and dynamic team player.
Still, I do think the Celtics could have won it with some other players instead of him. Brunson included. I don’t consider Tatum a dominant player, but I respect that he contributes in multiple ways.

I don’t think a straight swap in for Brunson makes them better. Big hole on defense and size.
Last year with Porzingas missing the playoffs, I think they would struggle. Mavs ally oop game goes nuts without Tatum. Siakam and Turner go off big. IDK, I would not make that swap. No way. Tatum does so much that people don’t see or understand. If you’re swapping him out for a lead guard like Brunson who can only play D against one position you need to bring in an all star PF somehow. And like I said that take minutes away from White and Jrue which hurts.

[tsherkin]

I don’t think a straight swap in for Brunson makes them better. Big hole on defense and size.

They lose rebounding, Brunson starts eating up some of the sets/spots that Brown uses, they lose on defense. Tatum often plays the 4, which Brunson obviously cannot do. I think that's a net loss for sure.

Like, respect to JB for being a good player and fitting well in NYK, but that's definitely not a winning swap for the Celtics, I agree.

[SelfishPlayer]

Tatum is the most undeservingly over scrutinized NBA player in history. He's clearly not the absolute best player in the NBA, but people still struggle with where the place him and if he deserves that placement. One thing he hasn't failed to do is carry on the Celtics championship tradition. He hasn't fallen short of that, and it could have been damning if he never won it.

I can't say I agree with this.

Some of his fans push his reputation/ranking a little far, and they get the expected pushback. That's about the extent of it. Most people recognize that he's very good, and that he runs light on dominant postseason performances, particularly in the Finals. At the same time, there's respect for the versatility of his game, how he fits into the team plan, his defense, his utility in the RS as a scorer, etc.

I haven't seen a Tatum fan, but I have seen people criticize Tatum for becoming a playmaker in the Finals against he Warriors when to them he was supposed to be a scorer ONLY and anything other than buckets was grounds for criticism.

[tsherkin]

[-
I haven't seen a Tatum fan, but I have seen people criticize Tatum for becoming a playmaker in the Finals against he Warriors when to them he was supposed to be a scorer ONLY and anything other than buckets was grounds for criticism.

That's odd. Because to me, despite having an abysmal Finals as a scorer, Tatum using his gravity to open things up for others while getting off ball or at least leveraging his passing was a very positive thing. Like, he sucked ass as a scorer for most of that series but he did literally everything else he could to contribute, and that happens sometimes. Even Jordan has had ugly Finals performances, mostly in the second three-peat.

Scoring is an emphasis because Tatum is Boston's leading scorer/focal offensive option, so that's a given, but coaches always preach the other things he was doing to basically every player ever.

[Lalouie]

Tatum is absolutely a great player and yet not a few fans and Sports people have given so much credit on the key contributions of Boston's other players esp Jrue, White, KP etc. as the main reason his team prevailed.
How many believe the Celtics could have won anyway if you replace Jason with the healthy
1. Butler
2. Anthony Edwards
3. Kawhi
4. Lebron
5. Banchero
6. PG?
?????
7. Ingram?
8. Middleton?

he's perceived as DEvalued because of brown, not because of the others. both will always split votes

you pose a deceptive hypothesis. the c's players are uniformly invested. therefore any superstar could replace tatum and they would still win. they were after all 7 wins better than the best western team and over a 12ozen wins better than the rest of the "good" teams.

basically any superstar would have to unpack his baggage and leave it at the door, and play for the sake of the team. i would want to see the celts play the celt way,,,not celts + lebron or celts + ant. i give pg and kawhi the best chance doing this

there is no player on that list who would kill the team,,,even on his bad day ,,,and the reason is there's always brown although there will always be the problem of the CELT'S making room for a big star and that is why i give kawhi and pg the ability to meld.

and ingram is a joke

[shi-woo]

I love how every year we old heads have to read the same "What if Pippen never played with Jordon?" threads over and over, and see all the arguments about Pip being too high or low on ATG lists ect.

Tatum guys is what you would get when Pippen is the #1. Sorry if it doesn't look like MJ or LeBron. His stats this run was earily similar to Scotties in the 2 postseasons between the 3 peats.

Pippen averaged 20/9/5/2/1 on 44/31/76 in 20 games. Tatum through 19 games averaged 25/10/6/1/1 on 43/28/86. Both played Spectacular defense.

Their are people that will always argue that Pippen was a Top 10 player of the 90's just like Tatum will be a Top 10 player of the 2020's. People really don't understand the different levels of 1-3 best players in the league and 4-12. Their is typically a drop off at some point. Players shouldn't be devalued because they aren't in the Jokic/Luka/LeBron tier. Especially like Tatum who has now gone 1-1 in the finals, and proven to win. We should honor that, not devalue it.

I think having such an unselfish team, and the level of continuity the Celtics have had just gives more value to the role players. This guys aren't exactly under the radar either, they are some of the more famous role players in the league. White and Jrue have played for Team USA. Jrue obviously being an NBA champion already. Big Al is a vet and famous for his 2 back2back runs with FL. Obviously Porzingus was the original Unicorn. So it's only natural on a team like this the entire cast would get the love.

The base of this Celtic team just needs to win 1 more, and none of these threads will matter, because all those guys will get elevated just like Magic and Bird in the 80's on those stacked teams. Tragic Magic and Rookie Bird in the finals only get brought up once and a while. We all forget about that once you prove it wasn't a fluke. Until then people have the right to critisize

[Lockdown504090]

Well playoff Tatum put up 25ppg (@55% TS), 10rpg, 6apg in 40mpg

In finals he was 22ppg (@50% TS), 8rpg, 7apg in 40mpg

Nobody has ever in the history of this sport played with the spacing and iq that the Celtics had this season from their teammates.

[og15]

Ironically I think it goes the other way. His Finals was brushed away a little due to them winning.

If anything the team record is what had him all team first. You could argue 8+ people more valuable right now.

That happena for everyone, same way that guys who win another time have their bad playoffs or series' forgotten or disregarded by most.

[tsherkin]

Their are people that will always argue that Pippen was a Top 10 player of the 90's just like Tatum will be a Top 10 player of the 2020's.

Pippen WAS a top-10 player in the 90s. There weren't that many guys better than him. He just also clearly wasn't a member of the first/elite tier of focal options.

[Triple M]

I just get confused when people say the Celtics are the most stacked or a superteam because is that in comparison to other superteams or compared to the talent level of the league today? Because to win it all you need to have great role players

[bledredwine]

Maybe. Saying swap in any other top 15 guy and the Celtics still win doesn’t seem unreasonable.
The one thing that I would say is that Tatums ability to guard every position effectively on defense, beast rebounds and do it all on offense is pretty unique. Not many guys with the Combo of size, length, handles, shooting, and defensive chops exist in the league. So I don’t know about that statement even though I don’t strongly disagree.
Replace Tatum with a lead guard like Brunson, Edwards, Haliburton, Curry, Booker, Mitchell, etc…I don’t think they are as good, and those guys take minutes from White and JRue. You loose defense and rebounding. Do they still win? Maybe, but I don’t think they are as good. Replace him Lebron, Giannis, Jokic, Doncic, SGA…they are probably just as good, maybe better. Replace him with Paul George or Durrant they are probably equivalent. I think anyone else they don’t win it. Kawhi, Butler and Embiid are not healthy enough.
The Cs are stacked though, Tatum is a clear top 10 player, flirting with top 5. Brown is top 20, White is top 30, Prozingas and Holiday are top 50, and Horford is top 100. Tatum knows how to be effective distributing the ball, running the offense and playing solid team D. Its rarer than you think.

I agree with this as well. The Celtics are like the modern Spurs in that they thrive off of having dynamic players. Though I’ve openly called Tatum overrated for those who consider him top five, there’s no denying that he’s a versatile and dynamic team player.
Still, I do think the Celtics could have won it with some other players instead of him. Brunson included. I don’t consider Tatum a dominant player, but I respect that he contributes in multiple ways.

I don’t think a straight swap in for Brunson makes them better. Big hole on defense and size.
Last year with Porzingas missing the playoffs, I think they would struggle. Mavs ally oop game goes nuts without Tatum. Siakam and Turner go off big. IDK, I would not make that swap. No way. Tatum does so much that people don’t see or understand. If you’re swapping him out for a lead guard like Brunson who can only play D against one position you need to bring in an all star PF somehow. And like I said that take minutes away from White and Jrue which hurts.

I don't think Brunson is better either, but I do think the Celtics still win it.

The Celtics have plenty of offense, so Brunson wouldn't be a good addition IMO, especially for Tatum.

[ghillphx]

Tatum is absolutely a great player and yet not a few fans and Sports people have given so much credit on the key contributions of Boston's other players esp Jrue, White, KP etc. as the main reason his team prevailed.
How many believe the Celtics could have won anyway if you replace Jason with the healthy
1. Butler
2. Anthony Edwards
3. Kawhi
4. Lebron
5. Banchero
6. PG?
?????
7. Ingram?
8. Middleton?

Tatum isn't better than those top 6 on the list.

[165bows]

In the current era, there are 2 sure fire guys who are historically significant, Giannis and Jokic. And to a lesser extent, perhaps Doncic. These are legit transcendent players whose mere presence elevates team beyond what 99.9% other players could do.

Everyone else, including guys like Tatum, are great for their era, may win some titles, all nba, all star, etc, but almost all of that is circumstance, rather than individual contribution.

The Celtics are stacked, they all star or all star level guys all throughout their lineup. Tatum is an awesome player, but the honest truth is, you can swap him with like 15 different guys in the NBA and nothing changes for the Celtics.

Bingo.

Someone who gets it.

Maybe. Saying swap in any other top 15 guy and the Celtics still win doesn’t seem unreasonable.
The one thing that I would say is that Tatums ability to guard every position effectively on defense, beast rebounds and do it all on offense is pretty unique. Not many guys with the Combo of size, length, handles, shooting, and defensive chops exist in the league. So I don’t know about that statement even though I don’t strongly disagree.
Replace Tatum with a lead guard like Brunson, Edwards, Haliburton, Curry, Booker, Mitchell, etc…I don’t think they are as good, and those guys take minutes from White and JRue. You loose defense and rebounding. Do they still win? Maybe, but I don’t think they are as good. Replace him Lebron, Giannis, Jokic, Doncic, SGA…they are probably just as good, maybe better. Replace him with Paul George or Durrant they are probably equivalent. I think anyone else they don’t win it. Kawhi, Butler and Embiid are not healthy enough.
The Cs are stacked though, Tatum is a clear top 10 player, flirting with top 5. Brown is top 20, White is top 30, Prozingas and Holiday are top 50, and Horford is top 100. Tatum knows how to be effective distributing the ball, running the offense and playing solid team D. Its rarer than you think.

Horford was considered 100% washed before coming back to play with Tatum.

KP was totally irrelevant, zero people (outside of me) were interested in his FA.

Jrue was locked in as an inefficient can’t score defense guy in the playoffs.

White was a solid glue guy JAG.

There was plenty of heated talk from Boston fans in our board that didn’t think Brown was even an all star.

I’m just in the no apologies camp that Tatum is totally under rated around here and the idea that he wasn’t absolutely instrumental in this title is hogwash.

I mean Banchero is this stuff serious.

Edit - Even Doncic, dude just tanked a whole season two years ago. Tatum and some random scrubs off the Boston bench has been an elite +\- unit forever. Sorry I just don’t see it. I’ll give whoever Jokic and Giannis, everyone else sounds nice but there isn’t someone else in some other clear tier above.

[dhsilv2]

Ironically I think it goes the other way. His Finals was brushed away a little due to them winning.

If anything the team record is what had him all team first. You could argue 8+ people more valuable right now.

He was 6th in MVP voting...feels like you're splitting hairs over 6th vs 8th.

He’s never received a first place vote, not a single voter has thought he actually deserved to win mvp.

I feel like the role players and the team being so good has made people think that Tatum by default should be considered a top tier player when he’s never been, so I think it’s the opposite of what the OP is proposing, he’s been overvalued due to how good that team is.

I feel like your two statements support what I'm saying though. The media doesn't think he's a top top guy (they vote for MVP) and we all seem to agree he's like 6-9...ok 12 if we included injured dudes. I'm kinda isolated from the mainstream media in that I don't do the BS espn stuff. But those ESPN guys vote. They aren't voting for him. So maybe I don't understand the point here?

[dhsilv2]

Bingo.

Someone who gets it.

Maybe. Saying swap in any other top 15 guy and the Celtics still win doesn’t seem unreasonable.
The one thing that I would say is that Tatums ability to guard every position effectively on defense, beast rebounds and do it all on offense is pretty unique. Not many guys with the Combo of size, length, handles, shooting, and defensive chops exist in the league. So I don’t know about that statement even though I don’t strongly disagree.
Replace Tatum with a lead guard like Brunson, Edwards, Haliburton, Curry, Booker, Mitchell, etc…I don’t think they are as good, and those guys take minutes from White and JRue. You loose defense and rebounding. Do they still win? Maybe, but I don’t think they are as good. Replace him Lebron, Giannis, Jokic, Doncic, SGA…they are probably just as good, maybe better. Replace him with Paul George or Durrant they are probably equivalent. I think anyone else they don’t win it. Kawhi, Butler and Embiid are not healthy enough.
The Cs are stacked though, Tatum is a clear top 10 player, flirting with top 5. Brown is top 20, White is top 30, Prozingas and Holiday are top 50, and Horford is top 100. Tatum knows how to be effective distributing the ball, running the offense and playing solid team D. Its rarer than you think.

Horford was considered 100% washed before coming back to play with Tatum.

KP was totally irrelevant, zero people (outside of me) were interested in his FA.

Jrue was locked in as an inefficient can’t score defense guy in the playoffs.

White was a solid glue guy JAG.

There was plenty of heated talk from Boston fans in our board that didn’t think Brown was even an all star.

I’m just in the no apologies camp that Tatum is totally under rated around here and the idea that he wasn’t absolutely instrumental in this title is hogwash.

I mean Banchero is this stuff serious.

Edit - Even Doncic, dude just tanked a whole season two years ago. Tatum and some random scrubs off the Boston bench has been an elite +\- unit forever. Sorry I just don’t see it. I’ll give whoever Jokic and Giannis, everyone else sounds nice but there isn’t someone else in some other clear tier above.

Many of us thought Jrue was better than Dame when that deal went down. I think you're taking the worst view of everyone here vs the reality....

[tamaraw08]

Maybe. Saying swap in any other top 15 guy and the Celtics still win doesn’t seem unreasonable.
The one thing that I would say is that Tatums ability to guard every position effectively on defense, beast rebounds and do it all on offense is pretty unique. Not many guys with the Combo of size, length, handles, shooting, and defensive chops exist in the league. So I don’t know about that statement even though I don’t strongly disagree.
Replace Tatum with a lead guard like Brunson, Edwards, Haliburton, Curry, Booker, Mitchell, etc…I don’t think they are as good, and those guys take minutes from White and JRue. You loose defense and rebounding. Do they still win? Maybe, but I don’t think they are as good. Replace him Lebron, Giannis, Jokic, Doncic, SGA…they are probably just as good, maybe better. Replace him with Paul George or Durrant they are probably equivalent. I think anyone else they don’t win it. Kawhi, Butler and Embiid are not healthy enough.
The Cs are stacked though, Tatum is a clear top 10 player, flirting with top 5. Brown is top 20, White is top 30, Prozingas and Holiday are top 50, and Horford is top 100. Tatum knows how to be effective distributing the ball, running the offense and playing solid team D. Its rarer than you think.

Horford was considered 100% washed before coming back to play with Tatum.

KP was totally irrelevant, zero people (outside of me) were interested in his FA.

Jrue was locked in as an inefficient can’t score defense guy in the playoffs.

White was a solid glue guy JAG.

There was plenty of heated talk from Boston fans in our board that didn’t think Brown was even an all star.

I’m just in the no apologies camp that Tatum is totally under rated around here and the idea that he wasn’t absolutely instrumental in this title is hogwash.

I mean Banchero is this stuff serious.

Edit - Even Doncic, dude just tanked a whole season two years ago. Tatum and some random scrubs off the Boston bench has been an elite +\- unit forever. Sorry I just don’t see it. I’ll give whoever Jokic and Giannis, everyone else sounds nice but there isn’t someone else in some other clear tier above.

Mean of us thought Jrue was better than Dame when that deal went down. I think you're taking the worst view of everyone here vs the reality....

Jrue was not a good shooter based his past playoff runs but pretty much all of them really stepped up in the finals that Tatum was in the bottom 8 in ORTG AND TS%