Who's higher all-time: Kawhi or Harden?

[Shock Defeat]

Harden

Kawhi is a part time player, barely at that

[ConSarnit]

Harden will get ranked higher all-time because of longevity.

Kawhi is better at his peak. I'd rather win 1-2 titles and have to deal with 8 years of uncertainty (Kawhi) than have 10 years of never even making the finals (Harden).

[Homer38]

Kawhi is a part time player and Harden is at his worst come playoffs time when the pressure is very high...I take Kawhi because what he did in the 2019 playoffs even if he had a very good supporting cast but Kawhi was still the huge reason why they won vs 76ers and bucks

[PeteyPablo]

James Harden has carried the Clippers to 5th place in the west as of today 1/16/25 8:30am. Of course Zubac and Powell have been huge too. As well as all the other guys.

But two rings and two finals MVP is something few players can ever claim. Kawhi wins this one.

[Me Like Lakers]

For me, ranking Kawhi is like ranking Bill Walton in that you know deep down you are ranking people that were worse than them ahead of them, but simply there isn't enough body of work to do it other way

[Haldi]

Kawhi was the best player in the NBA for a couple of seasons and was the reason the Raptors won a chip. Clearly his peak is above Harden's. As far as career, I still think he has Harden beat since when healthy, Kawhi was considered one of the top 3-5 two-way players in the NBA and he's got multiple rings where Harden has zero and never played defense.

When has Kawhi ever been mentioned as the best player in the NBA? He was the best player in the NBA during that playoff run with Raps.

Never ever heard Kawhi being mentioned as the best player. One of the best sure but he's clearly been overshadowed by a bunch of players.

I honestly think Kawhi was the best player in the NBA in 2019. I know he was load managed, but as a Raptors fan it was surreal to watch.

Thats funny considering the actual best player in the NBA that very year, is the guy he’s compared to in this very thread lol.

Harden averaged 36, 7.5 and 6.6 on elite efficiency absolutely carrying a squad that was trying to fit the leftovers of Carmelo which caused them to start something like 10-14 record with no Chris Paul. After that Chris Paul AND Clint both missed another 2 months each in the middle of the year and Harden was out there with Tucker, House, Macklemore, Gordon and rookie Hartenstein averaging 40 pts triple doubles for what seemed like 2 months. Most of these guys aren’t even real NBA players anymore, and no, its not because of age, except maybe Tucker.

Harden took that rockets team to 53-29 and 4th place in a much stronger west conference and the only reason he wasn’t back to back mvp was cause the Bucks had a measly 7 more wins despite playing against much weaker opponents in the east most of the time - and in those days, ‘muh team record’ was still sadly one of the top arguments in mvp voting, something we finally saw come to an end recently with jokic winning as a 6th seed and such (which I have zero problem with, always should be like that, team record should matter but context should matter more).

Harden has BOTH a better peak and much better career than Kawhi. Unless you’re the type to overvalue team rings as individual accomplishments (hint: they’re not), then it should be pretty clear. And that’s not to take anything away from Kawhi, he was a beast too, but he’s also benefited from playing on much better structured teams than Harden, and THATS what matters for rings, not how great one individual guy is.

[Haldi]

This is actually a good tricky question.... One is a part time player who has won championships..Other has dominated regular seasons for like a decade but fell short in the playoffs.

Its not that tricky of a question if you realize that winning championships or falling short in playoffs isn’t an “individual guy” thing but rather a team thing. Thats like blaming Jordan or LeBron for not winning in their first 7 years in the league and ‘falling short’. Their teams were not good enough compared to the other teams.

[nikster]

When has Kawhi ever been mentioned as the best player in the NBA? He was the best player in the NBA during that playoff run with Raps.

Never ever heard Kawhi being mentioned as the best player. One of the best sure but he's clearly been overshadowed by a bunch of players.

I honestly think Kawhi was the best player in the NBA in 2019. I know he was load managed, but as a Raptors fan it was surreal to watch.

Thats funny considering the actual best player in the NBA that very year, is the guy he’s compared to in this very thread lol.

Harden averaged 36, 7.5 and 6.6 on elite efficiency absolutely carrying a squad that was trying to fit the leftovers of Carmelo which caused them to start something like 10-14 record with no Chris Paul. After that Chris Paul AND Clint both missed another 2 months each in the middle of the year and Harden was out there with Tucker, House, Macklemore, Gordon and rookie Hartenstein averaging 40 pts triple doubles for what seemed like 2 months. Most of these guys aren’t even real NBA players anymore, and no, its not because of age, except maybe Tucker.

Harden took that rockets team to 53-29 and 4th place in a much stronger west conference and the only reason he wasn’t back to back mvp was cause the Bucks had a measly 7 more wins despite playing against much weaker opponents in the east most of the time - and in those days, ‘muh team record’ was still sadly one of the top arguments in mvp voting, something we finally saw come to an end recently with jokic winning as a 6th seed and such (which I have zero problem with, always should be like that, team record should matter but context should matter more).

Harden has BOTH a better peak and much better career than Kawhi. Unless you’re the type to overvalue team rings as individual accomplishments (hint: they’re not), then it should be pretty clear. And that’s not to take anything away from Kawhi, he was a beast too, but he’s also benefited from playing on much better structured teams than Harden, and THATS what matters for rings, not how great one individual guy is.

Yeah the important thing with the ring argument is how much luck tends to play a role. What happens if KD misses an entire series and Klay misses a game when they go up against Harden, and instead are healthy when they play Kawhi?

[web123888]

not sure but you'd much rather have kawhi's career for sure. winning 2 finals mvp's is more gratifying than being a better regular season player with an mvp and deep playoffs runs but never winning it all.

[shi-woo]

This is the type of discussion where "rings matter" comes into play. Harden is one of my favorite players ever, and I dislike Kawhii, but it's hard to argue Harden having a better career or peak.

Kawhii pretty much had an incredible career up till his age 30 seasons. In that time he went 2/3 in the finals, and won Finals MVP's against both LeBron and KD/Steph. He played in over 100 playoff games,and won back to back Defensive Player of the Year awards. He had superstar impact for most of his prime, but it was cut short by injuries the last 3 years. That's still an incredibly solid career, and those 4 awards are heavy hitters, and puts him in very rare company.

Harden on the other hand has been one of the greatest floor raisers and workhorses of this era, just hasn't been able to beat the players better than him. For all the hate he gets, he's a MVP, playoff staple, and usually brings his teams as far as they can go. Made it to the finals with young KD, WCF with old Dwight, WCF with old Paul, 2nd Rd with WB and Embiid. He's going to be in the Top of a lot of major statistics all time. Points, ASTS, REB, 3's, FTm.

Kawhiii I think ends up being in the range of guys like Dirk, IT and KG, the guys who won but weren't the dominant players of their era. 15-25 range.

Harden is clearly the best of the guards that never won like Tmac, Vince, ect. I think his okay payoff success with his solid individual success put's him in the same tier as guys like Allen and Pierce. Most people have those guys in the 30-40 range. He had similar impact as Nash, but a longer prime and career. Can crack Top 20 with a ring in LA

[ArksNetsSince99]

I can't imagine ranking Leonard over Harden here. The gap is massive here. Leonard is certainly an interesting case study, as he obviously had an insane run in 2019...though even then he was banged up in the finals.

Then imagine

Championships

Kawhi - 1

Harden -0

Kawhi by a landslide

[JJ_PR]

One did it in the regular season, the other did it in the playoffs. Harden's peak was insane though, it's close. I'd go with Kawhi because postseason matters more.

[Castle Black]

If CP3 doesn't get hurt and miss Game 7 of the 2018 WCF, the Rockets very likely beat that GS superteam and go on to win the Championship that year with Harden winning FMVP. This would be a very different conversation had that happened. Same with CP3's legacy.

If's and buts though.

[dhsilv2]

I can't imagine ranking Leonard over Harden here. The gap is massive here. Leonard is certainly an interesting case study, as he obviously had an insane run in 2019...though even then he was banged up in the finals.

Then imagine

Championships

Kawhi - 1

Harden -0

Kawhi by a landslide

Counting rings is for children and ESPN employees.

[phanman]

I'd choose Kawhi, but that decision is heavily influenced by him helping us win that chip. I can see the argument on both sides with James being a regular season juggernaut that raised his teams floor while Kawhi did the opposite of raising his teams ceiling. They're both superstars that provided different things to their respective teams and I hate how when guys chose one side they proceed to trash the other.

Unfortunately for Kawhi his prime years have been cut short by a bunch of of injuries but let's not completely overlook his regular season production. He was a valuable 3-D role player in his first 3 seasons and after that 2014 championship playoff run, he really came into his own as a premier player. Excluding that lost 2018 season where he only played 9 games, he had a 6 season stretch where he averaged 63games and had the following accolades before tearing his ACL in 2021:
- 2x DPOY (top 3 in 2017)
- 5x All Star
- 5x All NBA - 3x 1st Team & 2x 2nd
- 3x top 5 MVP finishes (2nd in 16 and 3rd in 17) before tearing his ACL

I really depends on what you want from your superstar, but I am from the POV that my guy should be able to elevate his game in the playoffs and win when it really matters. Harden got his reputation as an unreliable post season superstar for a reason. It wasn't always his fault but that's the responsibility you carry as your team's best player. That's not to say Kawhi doesn't have his own faults, especially the in Bubble vs Denver, but its not as egregious as James' history.

[TheGeneral99]

This is actually an interesting one.

While prime Kawhi is definitely the better player overall, I would have to put Harden just slightly ahead all-time simply because of longevity and excellence over such a long period.

Now I would take prime Kawhi circa 2017-2021 over prime Harden, but Harden has been so dominant for so long, and his Houston peak circa 2016-2020 is really underrated. He was a monster offensively and likely would have had a ring had Durant not joined the Warriors.

[Shock Defeat]

Kawhi would not have won if KD or Klay didn't get hurt

Now imagine if Hardens rockets didn't have cp3 get hurt, or KD/Klay were out when they played them in 2018. It would have been a different series.

Kawhis other ring came as a supporting player on the Spurs.

[LakersSoul]

One dominates only in the regular season, and one only shows up in the playoffs (sometimes).

Weird to hear Kawhi talk with the press.

Is it me or is he rude AF? No other NBA player or any other sport player is that rude towards them but they all stay quiet.

[RRR3]

For me, ranking Kawhi is like ranking Bill Walton in that you know deep down you are ranking people that were worse than them ahead of them, but simply there isn't enough body of work to do it other way

Correct answer. Penny Hardaway, McGrady and Grant Hill also in this category to various degrees.

[Special_Puppy]

If you were able to have a player for their entire career, I think you would win more championships with Harden. Better 3-year Peak, way better durability, way more minutes played