Where do you rank Durant all time?

[MrPainfulTruth]

I've asked this to many posters here and rarely get a response. Maybe one of you will answer.

Why is Jokic beating the:
23' twolves (42-40 team, led by a younger Edwards, and KAT who was banged up that year)
23 Suns (45-37 team, acquired KD at the deadline for all their depth, and he only played a dozen or so games before the playoffs)
23 Lakers (43-39 team, had AD/Old lebron)
23 Heat (44-38 team who caught fire early in the playoffs and was running on fumes)

More impressive than OKC Durant beating teams like:
2012 San Antonio (50-16 team, had home court advantage, led by Tim Duncan/Manu/Parker. Had won 20 straight games before OKC beat them 4 straight in the WCF)
2014 Clippers (57-25 team, two top 10 players at the time in their primes in CP3 and Blake Griffin)
2016 Spurs (67-15 team, had home court advantage)

The teams OKC took down in the playoffs with KD were significantly better than any team Jokic has beat with Denver, certainly any during the 23 finals run (and there hasn't been much outside of that). Like, way significantly better. KDs thunder clearly could've steamrolled Denvers 23 path. The only teams they lost to when healthy from 2012 until KD left were the 2012 Heat, 2014 Spurs (though Ibaka was banged up), and 2016 Warriors. Yes they had Westbrook, who is better than any player Jokic has played with. But they also had embarrassingly bad shooting and center play most of that time too.

So why is beating lesser teams more impressive?

I don't think it's necessarily more impressive per se, but how can Denver's path to the championship be held against Jokic? He didn't exactly choose the level of competition he'd be playing against. I can't back this statistically, but we're also in a league where CBA rules enforce greater parity than in the 2010s, so the landscape is less polarized, with fewer elite teams and tanking teams. The same rules that have prevented Denver from building on their success in terms of roster construction.

Durant in OKC arguably faced better teams but he also arguably had better supporting casts with Westbrook as his sidekick, as well as Ibaka. And both realities were enabled by the broader NBA ecosystem of the time.

As for your last question, which I find quite interesting, I think Durant faced dominant teams who were slightly superior largely because they were led by players who were a tier above him (Steph and LeBron, with the Spurs being an all-time great collective). Durant was a fantastic player but he didn't have the gargantuan impact on winning that Steph and LeBron had. He fell just short.

And I think statistically Jokic is reaching a level of play that is in the same class as LeBron and Curry, and above Durant.

But the context around them has shifted.

I don't hold the 23 path against Jokic, but I don't think it has the incredible value some here think it does. Like, I don't think it proves more than the wins I mentioned by KDs OKC teams do. Why would it? He beat lesser teams.

I agree Westbrook was better, by alot, than any teammate Jokic has had. But those OKC teams had terrible spacing and shooting compared to the other top teams in the league during their time, and always played a lane clogging center (Perkins and later Adams) way too much. Top to bottom they were pretty poor rosters, especially compared to the teams they beat that I mentioned. KD and Russ were just that good.

I don't think 2016 Steph outplayed Durant at all in that series, the warriors just had more shooting and OKCs offense ground to a halt due to their lack of it. The 2015 warriors also broke through the year KD was out for OKC. Who knows how that would've looked. He only got the 1 crack at LeBron with OKC, and that was an extremely young OKC team. And he did beat that historic spurs collective, more than once, as mentioned.

I get slamming him for going to Golden State (although it did turn them to maybe the most talented team ever) but I think his accomplishments prior to going there get overlooked. If Westbrook didn't get hurt in 2013, OKC was the favorite to come out of the west, losing to the 2014 spurs is nothing to be ashamed of, and then KD was hurt in 2015. Coming up 1 game short in 2016 of knocking off the 67 win spurs and 73 win warriors without HCA also isn't something to knock him on. His last real gasp while being elite seems to have been 2021 brooklyn, who I maintain had Kyrie not got injured, would've beaten Milwaukee and gone on to win the title. He's had some bad breaks injury wise that led to some missed titles. Aside from in 2016, I don't think Curry was ever a better player.

What do you think woudl have happened if you swapped KD on those OKC teams for Jokic? Better / equal / worse result?

[hardenASG13]

I don't think it's necessarily more impressive per se, but how can Denver's path to the championship be held against Jokic? He didn't exactly choose the level of competition he'd be playing against. I can't back this statistically, but we're also in a league where CBA rules enforce greater parity than in the 2010s, so the landscape is less polarized, with fewer elite teams and tanking teams. The same rules that have prevented Denver from building on their success in terms of roster construction.

Durant in OKC arguably faced better teams but he also arguably had better supporting casts with Westbrook as his sidekick, as well as Ibaka. And both realities were enabled by the broader NBA ecosystem of the time.

As for your last question, which I find quite interesting, I think Durant faced dominant teams who were slightly superior largely because they were led by players who were a tier above him (Steph and LeBron, with the Spurs being an all-time great collective). Durant was a fantastic player but he didn't have the gargantuan impact on winning that Steph and LeBron had. He fell just short.

And I think statistically Jokic is reaching a level of play that is in the same class as LeBron and Curry, and above Durant.

But the context around them has shifted.

I don't hold the 23 path against Jokic, but I don't think it has the incredible value some here think it does. Like, I don't think it proves more than the wins I mentioned by KDs OKC teams do. Why would it? He beat lesser teams.

I agree Westbrook was better, by alot, than any teammate Jokic has had. But those OKC teams had terrible spacing and shooting compared to the other top teams in the league during their time, and always played a lane clogging center (Perkins and later Adams) way too much. Top to bottom they were pretty poor rosters, especially compared to the teams they beat that I mentioned. KD and Russ were just that good.

I don't think 2016 Steph outplayed Durant at all in that series, the warriors just had more shooting and OKCs offense ground to a halt due to their lack of it. The 2015 warriors also broke through the year KD was out for OKC. Who knows how that would've looked. He only got the 1 crack at LeBron with OKC, and that was an extremely young OKC team. And he did beat that historic spurs collective, more than once, as mentioned.

I get slamming him for going to Golden State (although it did turn them to maybe the most talented team ever) but I think his accomplishments prior to going there get overlooked. If Westbrook didn't get hurt in 2013, OKC was the favorite to come out of the west, losing to the 2014 spurs is nothing to be ashamed of, and then KD was hurt in 2015. Coming up 1 game short in 2016 of knocking off the 67 win spurs and 73 win warriors without HCA also isn't something to knock him on. His last real gasp while being elite seems to have been 2021 brooklyn, who I maintain had Kyrie not got injured, would've beaten Milwaukee and gone on to win the title. He's had some bad breaks injury wise that led to some missed titles. Aside from in 2016, I don't think Curry was ever a better player.

Well I think Curry was a better player than Durant for the most part, and I think most impact metrics would back this claim.

You mention the spacing and it's fair point. But one thing that you're overlooking is the space that was generated by Curry's gravity. He attracted a lot more attention and aggressive coverages than Durant with the threat of his pull-up shooting, and it generated more 4-on-3 opportunities, more driving lanes, more open looks. And sure, the Warriors had another all-time great shooter in Klay Thompson, but they also had some shaky 3-point shooters who all benefitted from the attention that Curry drew.

But in any case, let's not get sidetracked. I don't think you've addressed the point about the broader NBA landscape and how much more parity there is in the league now.

The Nuggets didn't face any juggernaut on their way to the Finals, that is true. They also weren't a juggernaut themselves. Jokic never playing with another All-Star, and the CBA rules, are largely responsible for this.

The Thunder faced better teams, but they were a 60-win team themselves. Playing with another legend in Westbrook helped in this regard, but so did the CBA of the time, which created more disparity between teams.

The NBA today is much flatter. It's harder to be a juggernaut, and it's harder to find juggernauts to face.

There are 3 (borderline 4 if you include the knicks, who are going to be a really tough out) this year. OKC, Boston, and Cleveland. I agree they aren't the same as the mid 2010s juggernauts, as those teams did it year after year, and only Boston has the established longevity. KDs Thunder teams took down some major teams (2012 and 2016 Spurs, 2014 Clippers). They were underdogs without homecourt in both those Spurs series. The 2016 Thunder had 10 less wins than those spurs. They won 16 less games than Golden State. That'd be like Denver beating OKC this year, then taking Boston to 7 games in the finals. I'd like to see that, the opportunity is there.

As for Curry, I'm not here to bash him. I do think it's arguable Durant was the better player when both were healthy each year aside from 2016. Durant was injured and coming off winning MVP in 2015 when Curry won his first MVP/title (and played a very weak path in doing so), and I think KD was the best player on Golden state when he was there. It was close enough to argue either way though. Durant was out in 2020, Curry was out in 2021, and I think they've been about equal the last couple years.

[Baz]

Somewhere in the 15-20 range

[hardenASG13]

I don't think it's necessarily more impressive per se, but how can Denver's path to the championship be held against Jokic? He didn't exactly choose the level of competition he'd be playing against. I can't back this statistically, but we're also in a league where CBA rules enforce greater parity than in the 2010s, so the landscape is less polarized, with fewer elite teams and tanking teams. The same rules that have prevented Denver from building on their success in terms of roster construction.

Durant in OKC arguably faced better teams but he also arguably had better supporting casts with Westbrook as his sidekick, as well as Ibaka. And both realities were enabled by the broader NBA ecosystem of the time.

As for your last question, which I find quite interesting, I think Durant faced dominant teams who were slightly superior largely because they were led by players who were a tier above him (Steph and LeBron, with the Spurs being an all-time great collective). Durant was a fantastic player but he didn't have the gargantuan impact on winning that Steph and LeBron had. He fell just short.

And I think statistically Jokic is reaching a level of play that is in the same class as LeBron and Curry, and above Durant.

But the context around them has shifted.

I don't hold the 23 path against Jokic, but I don't think it has the incredible value some here think it does. Like, I don't think it proves more than the wins I mentioned by KDs OKC teams do. Why would it? He beat lesser teams.

I agree Westbrook was better, by alot, than any teammate Jokic has had. But those OKC teams had terrible spacing and shooting compared to the other top teams in the league during their time, and always played a lane clogging center (Perkins and later Adams) way too much. Top to bottom they were pretty poor rosters, especially compared to the teams they beat that I mentioned. KD and Russ were just that good.

I don't think 2016 Steph outplayed Durant at all in that series, the warriors just had more shooting and OKCs offense ground to a halt due to their lack of it. The 2015 warriors also broke through the year KD was out for OKC. Who knows how that would've looked. He only got the 1 crack at LeBron with OKC, and that was an extremely young OKC team. And he did beat that historic spurs collective, more than once, as mentioned.

I get slamming him for going to Golden State (although it did turn them to maybe the most talented team ever) but I think his accomplishments prior to going there get overlooked. If Westbrook didn't get hurt in 2013, OKC was the favorite to come out of the west, losing to the 2014 spurs is nothing to be ashamed of, and then KD was hurt in 2015. Coming up 1 game short in 2016 of knocking off the 67 win spurs and 73 win warriors without HCA also isn't something to knock him on. His last real gasp while being elite seems to have been 2021 brooklyn, who I maintain had Kyrie not got injured, would've beaten Milwaukee and gone on to win the title. He's had some bad breaks injury wise that led to some missed titles. Aside from in 2016, I don't think Curry was ever a better player.

What do you think woudl have happened if you swapped KD on those OKC teams for Jokic? Better / equal / worse result?

Probably worse. Those OKC teams relied extremely heavily on KD/Westbrook attacking off a live dribble from the top of the key. They had no shooters to take dribble handoffs all game from Jokic, which is his primary action to facilitate. Jokic is great at filling a stat sheet, but KDs game was more versatile. I maintain that much of Jokics assists come from doing a dribble handoff or pitch to a guy and then setting a screen for him. He can't dribble in the half court without turning his back to the defender or create his own 3. I don't think the Jokic system would've worked on those OKC teams with no spacing or 3 point threats out there.

[Homer38]

In the 15-25 range,likely top 20

[WarriorGM]

As for Curry, I'm not here to bash him. I do think it's arguable Durant was the better player when both were healthy each year aside from 2016. Durant was injured and coming off winning MVP in 2015 when Curry won his first MVP/title (and played a very weak path in doing so), and I think KD was the best player on Golden state when he was there. It was close enough to argue either way though. Durant was out in 2020, Curry was out in 2021, and I think they've been about equal the last couple years.

Name the years when a champion had a tougher path to a title in the past ten years than 2015.

[Homer38]

As for Curry, I'm not here to bash him. I do think it's arguable Durant was the better player when both were healthy each year aside from 2016. Durant was injured and coming off winning MVP in 2015 when Curry won his first MVP/title (and played a very weak path in doing so), and I think KD was the best player on Golden state when he was there. It was close enough to argue either way though. Durant was out in 2020, Curry was out in 2021, and I think they've been about equal the last couple years.

Name the years when a champion had a tougher path to a title in the past ten years than 2015.

many if you add the context....

[WarriorGM]

As for Curry, I'm not here to bash him. I do think it's arguable Durant was the better player when both were healthy each year aside from 2016. Durant was injured and coming off winning MVP in 2015 when Curry won his first MVP/title (and played a very weak path in doing so), and I think KD was the best player on Golden state when he was there. It was close enough to argue either way though. Durant was out in 2020, Curry was out in 2021, and I think they've been about equal the last couple years.

Name the years when a champion had a tougher path to a title in the past ten years than 2015.

many if you add the context....

Name them. And remember when talking about context Curry in 2015 was playing with no teammates who'd been in a finals and that he was largely playing without the highest paid player on his team.

[hardenASG13]

As for Curry, I'm not here to bash him. I do think it's arguable Durant was the better player when both were healthy each year aside from 2016. Durant was injured and coming off winning MVP in 2015 when Curry won his first MVP/title (and played a very weak path in doing so), and I think KD was the best player on Golden state when he was there. It was close enough to argue either way though. Durant was out in 2020, Curry was out in 2021, and I think they've been about equal the last couple years.

Name the years when a champion had a tougher path to a title in the past ten years than 2015.

TBH I was going from memory and thought they'd played an injured Houston in the conference finals. Cleveland in the finals was the only injured team. I'll take back the weak path comment, though I think a series vs OKC in 2015 would've been very interesting if they had KD that year.

[Homer38]

Name the years when a champion had a tougher path to a title in the past ten years than 2015.

many if you add the context....

Name them. And remember when talking about context Curry in 2015 was playing with no teammates who'd been in a finals and that he was largely playing without the highest paid player on his team.

The next 4 champions had beat all better team at some point during their run that the best team the warriors face in 2015.....In 2015,every team that the warriors face had their PG out in some crucial game or for the entire series.....The clippers or the spurs would been a much tougher matchup for the warriors that the rockets too.The 2015 warriors were a great team but the tougher path to a title in the last 10 years?!

[WarriorGM]

many if you add the context....

Name them. And remember when talking about context Curry in 2015 was playing with no teammates who'd been in a finals and that he was largely playing without the highest paid player on his team.

The next 4 champions had beat all better team at some point during their run that the best team the warriors face in 2015.....In 2015,every team that the warriors face had their PG out in some crucial game or for the entire series.....The clippers or the spurs would been a much tougher matchup for the warriors that the rockets too.The 2015 warriors were a great team but the tougher path to a title in the last 10 years?!

The 2016 Cavaliers, 2017 Warriors, 2018 Warriors, 2019 Raptors. You're saying Curry's 2015 in which his team faced all the highest seeds possible on their path was less impressive than the Cavaliers who strolled into the finals in 2016 and beat a Warriors team with a gimpy Steph? That winning with KD in 2017 and 2018 was more impressive? That the Raptors didn't benefit from injuries to KD and Klay more? That's what you're saying? Not to mention that that still leaves 6 other years you haven't claimed a champion had a tougher path.

[Homer38]

Name them. And remember when talking about context Curry in 2015 was playing with no teammates who'd been in a finals and that he was largely playing without the highest paid player on his team.

The next 4 champions had beat all better team at some point during their run that the best team the warriors face in 2015.....In 2015,every team that the warriors face had their PG out in some crucial game or for the entire series.....The clippers or the spurs would been a much tougher matchup for the warriors that the rockets too.The 2015 warriors were a great team but the tougher path to a title in the last 10 years?!

The 2016 Cavaliers, 2017 Warriors, 2018 Warriors, 2019 Raptors. You're saying Curry's 2015 in which his team faced all the highest seeds possible on their path was less impressive than the Cavaliers who strolled into the finals in 2016 and beat a Warriors team with a gimpy Steph? That winning with KD in 2017 and 2018 was more impressive? That the Raptors didn't benefit from injuries to KD and Klay more? That's what you're saying? Not to mention that that still leaves 6 other years you haven't claimed a champion had a tougher path.

I'm not going to waste my time with you, it's too difficult for you to understand

[Iwasawitness]

Name them. And remember when talking about context Curry in 2015 was playing with no teammates who'd been in a finals and that he was largely playing without the highest paid player on his team.

The next 4 champions had beat all better team at some point during their run that the best team the warriors face in 2015.....In 2015,every team that the warriors face had their PG out in some crucial game or for the entire series.....The clippers or the spurs would been a much tougher matchup for the warriors that the rockets too.The 2015 warriors were a great team but the tougher path to a title in the last 10 years?!

The 2016 Cavaliers, 2017 Warriors, 2018 Warriors, 2019 Raptors. You're saying Curry's 2015 in which his team faced all the highest seeds possible on their path was less impressive than the Cavaliers who strolled into the finals in 2016 and beat a Warriors team with a gimpy Steph? That winning with KD in 2017 and 2018 was more impressive? That the Raptors didn't benefit from injuries to KD and Klay more? That's what you're saying? Not to mention that that still leaves 6 other years you haven't claimed a champion had a tougher path.

Pretty much every team that came after that 2015 Warriors team has had a tougher path expect for the 2017 Warriors. This is silly.

[cupcakesnake]

I have Durant 21st, (right behind Dr. J and Chris Paul). I think you can make a good argument to get him closer to 15, but I don't see him higher than that unless you're someone who discards players from older generations.

I think people who have Durant higher focus on the concept of Durant instead of the actual player he was at different times in his career. I'll try to summarize my Durant career scouting report.

- On OKC, he was one of the best scorers ever. A center-like rim threat with an unstoppable pull up game.
- Best offensive attribute has always been his catch & shoot threat. He's just automatic when you play him as a spacer. He'll murder close outs. He's too tall too talented to handle off the ball.
- His handles and playmaking have always been overrated, as he's super turnover prone on drives (high dribble plus physically not that strong), and his playmaking is slow. It's been more apparent in his old age, but this has always been a problem for him.
- Defense was low effort in OKC, but started coming around in the final years.
- In Golden State, we got complete 2-way Durant. He fit in on a high end defense as a switchable rim-protector. He actually kept up his defense better as he got older. He's a very long, mobile obstacle, but not a super active or smart defender.
- To me he's been a bit of a gimmick in the post-Warriors years. He no longer threatens the rim, so it's semi irrelevant on offense that he's 6'11". He's been more like a more efficient Carmelo. He'll get you decent offensive efficiency but he can't break down a defense in any way. A one-on-one guy only gives you so much. Teams have been able to key on him in the playoffs and take him down.

[WarriorGM]

The next 4 champions had beat all better team at some point during their run that the best team the warriors face in 2015.....In 2015,every team that the warriors face had their PG out in some crucial game or for the entire series.....The clippers or the spurs would been a much tougher matchup for the warriors that the rockets too.The 2015 warriors were a great team but the tougher path to a title in the last 10 years?!

The 2016 Cavaliers, 2017 Warriors, 2018 Warriors, 2019 Raptors. You're saying Curry's 2015 in which his team faced all the highest seeds possible on their path was less impressive than the Cavaliers who strolled into the finals in 2016 and beat a Warriors team with a gimpy Steph? That winning with KD in 2017 and 2018 was more impressive? That the Raptors didn't benefit from injuries to KD and Klay more? That's what you're saying? Not to mention that that still leaves 6 other years you haven't claimed a champion had a tougher path.

Pretty much every team that came after that 2015 Warriors team has had a tougher path expect for the 2017 Warriors. This is silly.

The silly thing is seeing people claiming this but avoiding naming the teams and explaining why they had a tougher path.

[Iwasawitness]

The 2016 Cavaliers, 2017 Warriors, 2018 Warriors, 2019 Raptors. You're saying Curry's 2015 in which his team faced all the highest seeds possible on their path was less impressive than the Cavaliers who strolled into the finals in 2016 and beat a Warriors team with a gimpy Steph? That winning with KD in 2017 and 2018 was more impressive? That the Raptors didn't benefit from injuries to KD and Klay more? That's what you're saying? Not to mention that that still leaves 6 other years you haven't claimed a champion had a tougher path.

Pretty much every team that came after that 2015 Warriors team has had a tougher path expect for the 2017 Warriors. This is silly.

The silly thing is seeing people claiming this but avoiding naming the teams and explaining why they had a tougher path.

I just named the teams… I said every single one apart from the 2017 Warriors.

[WarriorGM]

Pretty much every team that came after that 2015 Warriors team has had a tougher path expect for the 2017 Warriors. This is silly.

The silly thing is seeing people claiming this but avoiding naming the teams and explaining why they had a tougher path.

I just named the teams… I said every single one apart from the 2017 Warriors.

Let's ignore the ones involving the Warriors for now. Is winning against Butler in the finals supposed to be more impressive than beating LeBron in his prime now? Or how about an older Chris Paul and Devin Booker? Lakers 2020, Giannis 2021 and Jokic 2023, have that against them. Did they play all the highest seeds on their path? No. Did they play against all the other First Team All-NBA? No. So what makes these title runs more impressive than Curry's in 2015?

[Iwasawitness]

The silly thing is seeing people claiming this but avoiding naming the teams and explaining why they had a tougher path.

I just named the teams… I said every single one apart from the 2017 Warriors.

Let's ignore the ones involving the Warriors for now. Is winning against Butler in the finals supposed to be more impressive than beating LeBron in his prime now? Or how about an older Chris Paul and Devin Booker? Lakers 2020, Giannis 2021 and Jokic 2023, have that against them. Did they play all the highest seeds on their path? No. Did they play against all the other First Team All-NBA? No. So what makes these title runs more impressive than Curry's in 2015?

Actually, I forgot about Denver's 2023 run. Theirs was weaker than 2015 Warriors. Other than that, the rest still apply.

And yes, it's more impressive than beating LeBron in his prime... when LeBron is literally missing his all star teammates and they're running a tight 7 man rotation with James Jones in it.

[WarriorGM]

I just named the teams… I said every single one apart from the 2017 Warriors.

Let's ignore the ones involving the Warriors for now. Is winning against Butler in the finals supposed to be more impressive than beating LeBron in his prime now? Or how about an older Chris Paul and Devin Booker? Lakers 2020, Giannis 2021 and Jokic 2023, have that against them. Did they play all the highest seeds on their path? No. Did they play against all the other First Team All-NBA? No. So what makes these title runs more impressive than Curry's in 2015?

Actually, I forgot about Denver's 2023 run. Theirs was weaker than 2015 Warriors. Other than that, the rest still apply.

And yes, it's more impressive than beating LeBron in his prime... when LeBron is literally missing his all star teammates and they're running a tight 7 man rotation with James Jones in it.

That LeBron team pretty much describes the one that swept a 60-win team in the 2015 Eastern Conference Finals. Add Kyrie back and that's a team that beat a team with Jimmy Butler, Pau Gasol, and Derrick Rose. Does that sound like a team that's less impressive than the Trae Young Atlanta Hawks?

[Iwasawitness]

Let's ignore the ones involving the Warriors for now. Is winning against Butler in the finals supposed to be more impressive than beating LeBron in his prime now? Or how about an older Chris Paul and Devin Booker? Lakers 2020, Giannis 2021 and Jokic 2023, have that against them. Did they play all the highest seeds on their path? No. Did they play against all the other First Team All-NBA? No. So what makes these title runs more impressive than Curry's in 2015?

Actually, I forgot about Denver's 2023 run. Theirs was weaker than 2015 Warriors. Other than that, the rest still apply.

And yes, it's more impressive than beating LeBron in his prime... when LeBron is literally missing his all star teammates and they're running a tight 7 man rotation with James Jones in it.

That LeBron team pretty much describes the one that swept a 60-win team in the 2015 Eastern Conference Finals. Add Kyrie back and that's a team that beat a team with Jimmy Butler, Pau Gasol, and Derrick Rose. Does that sound like a team that's less impressive than the Trae Young Atlanta Hawks?

Yeah but we aren't talking hypotheticals here. The fact is, Cleveland did not have Kyrie for five of the six games in that series. GS didn't face a single healthy team that entire playoff run, and even at full strength, none of them expect for Cleveland were superior. Stop with this nonsense.

And the Hawks aren't, but the Suns definitely are... at least the Bucks faced a healthy finals opponent.