Foul baiting: Do you have a problem with this play?

[og15]

Unnatural basketball play by SGA should result in no shooting foul.

Just call the tickytack foul when Tatum originally shoves his hand into SGA to impede his dribble. SGA making some unnatural, shot attempt when a defender is blocking him, should void any chance of it being a shooting foul. (Bonus obv applies)

I can't see how unnatural basketball play would pass here because he goes into his regular shooting motion. If he did some wild shooting motion that we know no one would ever do, that would be unnatural.

For example he shoots and then swings his arm on follow through to the side so that the defender clips him, or for example, a guy extending his leg in a way he normally wouldn't to get contact, that's what would be unnatural, because you don't naturally make that movement when shooting.

That doesn't really make sense here since he just goes up to shoot a jumpshot. Brown's arm is above SGA's left arm and if he goes up for a regular jumpshot from that spot, his arm will be impeded, so unnatural would not work from what I'm seeing.

He only attempted the "shot" because he thought it would get him a call. It wasn't an actual shot attempt.

If no fouls were called, no player would ever take a shot with Tatum holding their arm down, it's a 2FG% type shot. He took it in order to coerce the refs into blowing the whistle. KD's rip-thru was the same thing and the league rightfully considered it a non-shooting play.

There's no natural shooting motion present here

Yea, I don't think that's how it gets defined, but this play wasn't called a shooting foul, the foul was called as before the shot anyways, but the bonus was present.

When they say unnatural motion though, as far as I know, it doesn't imply a shot you wouldn't take unless you were fouled, but a motion that you wouldn't make if you were shooting in general.

[OxAndFox]

I mean, the example you show is cheap, not a legit basketball play, and there’s no doubt the game would be much better and more enjoyable without it, but the league has been rewarding this stuff for well over a decade now so im not going to single Shai out for doing it.

As for how I’d like to see this stuff called?
The contact is minor and incidental imo. If the ref isn’t going to call it on its own, the offensive player flailing and chucking up an air ball shouldn’t change anything. I’d be fine with a no call here to encourage real basketball plays instead of playing for the whistle.
In a league where offensive players can throw themselves into defenders, body check them to clear space for a shot, kick them in the nuts on jump shots, use their off arm to clear defenders out or even push off a defender to get more lift for a dunk, I don’t see why every little bit of defensive contact has to be called because technically it’s a foul. Technically a lot of the stuff offensive players do is a foul too. Technically like half the screens set in the league are not legal. If we can give leeway there, I think we can give some on defense too.

Well said.
Absolutely correct. It's actually something I hate watching TBH. Doesn't matter if its on my team or not, I just hate watching offensive players foul baiting.
The absolute worst is when an offensive player is driving at an angle not at the basket and feels a bit of body contact, throws the head back and flings the ball at the ring and because its such a bad shot the ref blows the whistle and if it's challenged it won't be successful because TECHNICALLY you can say any type of contact is a foul and save face.

[Lunartic]

I can't see how unnatural basketball play would pass here because he goes into his regular shooting motion. If he did some wild shooting motion that we know no one would ever do, that would be unnatural.

For example he shoots and then swings his arm on follow through to the side so that the defender clips him, or for example, a guy extending his leg in a way he normally wouldn't to get contact, that's what would be unnatural, because you don't naturally make that movement when shooting.

That doesn't really make sense here since he just goes up to shoot a jumpshot. Brown's arm is above SGA's left arm and if he goes up for a regular jumpshot from that spot, his arm will be impeded, so unnatural would not work from what I'm seeing.

He only attempted the "shot" because he thought it would get him a call. It wasn't an actual shot attempt.

If no fouls were called, no player would ever take a shot with Tatum holding their arm down, it's a 2FG% type shot. He took it in order to coerce the refs into blowing the whistle. KD's rip-thru was the same thing and the league rightfully considered it a non-shooting play.

There's no natural shooting motion present here

Yea, I don't think that's how it gets defined, but this play wasn't called a shooting foul, the foul was called as before the shot anyways, but the bonus was present.

When they say unnatural motion though, as far as I know, it doesn't imply a shot you wouldn't take unless you were fouled, but a motion that you wouldn't make if you were shooting in general.

Oh don't get me wrong, I know the NBA sees it differently than I do, I'm just giving my opinion. Taking a wild shot when a defender is fouling you, shouldn't automatically be a shooting foul.

If you watch SGA in slow-mo, his shot form is pretty wild and isn't consistent with his normal shooting motion - how much can we blame on the foul? Dunno, maybe all of it.

[leolozon]

My problem is not if it's a foul or not, it's why some contacts are considered continuation and others not.

If the hand on Shai happens before the shot, it could be considered on the floor.

I've seen guys getting fouled and trying to get a shot up at the same time and it's not considered a continuation. It happened to Doncic recently at the end of the game against the Nets.

This is so freaking inconsistent. And yes, it looks like Shai is getting a soft whistle for some reason.

[Exp0sed]

first of all, this particular example isn't a good one imo. there are far more egregious ones (of a few types).

this is technically a foul and there's def an uncalled foul by JB initially (obviously these often don't get called especially if the defender uses his arm to impede the attacker's movement for a split second to gain an advantage and then removes it quickly in the flow of the play). here JB is really parking his hand on SGA while the latter is driving and it's def a foul

however, it's worth noting that this isn't actually a rip-thru so that's where it gets a little tricky for me

the "classic" rip-through, from Kobe to KD, Harden and CP3 was being abused (speficially by KD\Harden\CP3) at the time they changed the rule so it won't be a shooting foul, was an excellent way for a guy like KD whose long but lacks upperbody strength to get space (or even better, get a lot of FT's)

it works basically at a standstill, taking jab steps, pump fakes and "rocker" steps (Embiid abuses it alot this way, standing still) and it inverses the hand-checking rule. what i mean is, hand-checking isn't technically allowed but is still very common. once an attacking player feels the hand or even just sees it close enough in his space, he can proceed to "gather" abruptly in the direction of that hand-check and use that illegal hand-check to draw a foul

SGA in particular gets hand-checked alot and like most current NBA players, usually just shoves down the hand that's checking him (refs don't call that shove, for obvious reasons). this is what he "should" have done in this instance but instead he hooks JB with his off-arm and then gathers to shoot with his other arm, all while driving downhill so...not a rip-through whatsoever

it's a foul but personally I don't like this call because it enables players to purposely hook the defender and then "gather" (just like SGA is doing here) and that's very hard for the refs to call correctly in real time, so ur gonna get alot of mistakes

in any event I think most neutral fans are fine with this call, it's the ones like the call when he baited and jumped into WB, or the one where he flopped into the arms of Jokic and got a loose ball foul on that bs, those are the kind of plays ppl have an issue with and rightfully so

[LuckyGreen7]

Jaylen didn't complain after the game. He put the blame on himself for not matching their physicality

[Tor_Raps]

I didn't watch the play but yes lol

[Ruma85]

I wouldn't say personal I have a problem with this play as it occurs basically in every game at least once, even though this next one happens quite regularly as well I have issues with the fouls that Young,Brunson etc.. get away with.

[MrPainfulTruth]

OKC aside, I would support the NBA allowing a little more handsy-ness defensively, but the NBA has made it clear for over a decade that you must defend with your feet. That means positioning and balance is everything. If you reach or are off balance, you are naturally going to be very vulernable to fouling. Shai is exceptionally good at putting defenders in these positions with his herky-jerky stop-and-go athleticism. Balance and positioning in the NBA defense is like "looking back at the ball" for a cornerback defending. Officials are not going to give you the benefit of the doubt if you're out of position and no longer making a play on the ball.

As an aside, I do think watching defenders who are still elite at defending in spite of these rules is very entertaining. Jrue Holiday over the years has done it better than anyone probably. He is the embodiment of pure defensive discipline. Watching defenders in the old guard wasn't as fun, because they would just hold and push. Being able to successfully defend through purely positioning, balance and contesting is very impressive. Also why I think OKC's defense is more fun to watch than their offense.

I hope you're being ironic. OKC's defense is mostly hand checking, slapping and running through screens - which is what everyone would do if it wasnt called a foul everywhere else.

I remember how Jokic's arms looked in the middle of the game. As if he wrestled a bear. Probably because everyone is so great at "positioning and defending with their feet".

[MrPainfulTruth]

first of all, this particular example isn't a good one imo. there are far more egregious ones (of a few types).

this is technically a foul and there's def an uncalled foul by JB initially (obviously these often don't get called especially if the defender uses his arm to impede the attacker's movement for a split second to gain an advantage and then removes it quickly in the flow of the play). here JB is really parking his hand on SGA while the latter is driving and it's def a foul

however, it's worth noting that this isn't actually a rip-thru so that's where it gets a little tricky for me

the "classic" rip-through, from Kobe to KD, Harden and CP3 was being abused (speficially by KD\Harden\CP3) at the time they changed the rule so it won't be a shooting foul, was an excellent way for a guy like KD whose long but lacks upperbody strength to get space (or even better, get a lot of FT's)

it works basically at a standstill, taking jab steps, pump fakes and "rocker" steps (Embiid abuses it alot this way, standing still) and it inverses the hand-checking rule. what i mean is, hand-checking isn't technically allowed but is still very common. once an attacking player feels the hand or even just sees it close enough in his space, he can proceed to "gather" abruptly in the direction of that hand-check and use that illegal hand-check to draw a foul

SGA in particular gets hand-checked alot and like most current NBA players, usually just shoves down the hand that's checking him (refs don't call that shove, for obvious reasons). this is what he "should" have done in this instance but instead he hooks JB with his off-arm and then gathers to shoot with his other arm, all while driving downhill so...not a rip-through whatsoever

it's a foul but personally I don't like this call because it enables players to purposely hook the defender and then "gather" (just like SGA is doing here) and that's very hard for the refs to call correctly in real time, so ur gonna get alot of mistakes

in any event I think most neutral fans are fine with this call, it's the ones like the call when he baited and jumped into WB, or the one where he flopped into the arms of Jokic and got a loose ball foul on that bs, those are the kind of plays ppl have an issue with and rightfully so

...all while he himself routinely shoves defenders out of the way, uncalled 99% of the time. At least he isnt dramatic about it, he goes about his business, cant be mad at him - its the league i'm mad at for turning this into WWE and thinking we dont notice theres a script.

[Haldi]

Called it in the game thread. SGA is calling attention to the fact that he's being handchecked. Ref shouldn't have to require a rip through to call this. Half of what we get angry about in terms of foulbaiting is a result of the refs not calling the game right.

100% this

[RB34]

Now go back and watch OKC v Denver. Look at how Jokic is defended on and off the ball.

Does Brown touch SGA? He does but if you’re going to call that you have to call everything. You can pick and choose depending on the player.

Look at that play the other day in the Lakers v Nets game, Luka was two hand shoved in the back with no call. Now we’re calling minimal contact.

[og15]

My problem is not if it's a foul or not, it's why some contacts are considered continuation and others not.

If the hand on Shai happens before the shot, it could be considered on the floor.

I've seen guys getting fouled and trying to get a shot up at the same time and it's not considered a continuation. It happened to Doncic recently at the end of the game against the Nets.

This is so freaking inconsistent. And yes, it looks like Shai is getting a soft whistle for some reason.

This was called as a non-shooting foul, but they were in the bonus. The NBA did clarify the continuation some years back, which did take away a lot of what most of us used to consider continuation. You are supposed to have to already be in the shooting motion, that is, you should have already gathered, it's still not always exactly clear of course as there is some interpretation required and things are quick, but this was not a case of a shooting foul.

I'm assuming what throws most people off when watching is that they might not always pay attention to when the gather happens and also might not pay attention to the "lower defensive box" distinction, while of course the refs would be. If outside the lower defensive box, everything now get's treated like a jumpshot, which means continuation is from upward motion not from gather like it is on drives.

There is one exception for running jumpshots, which is when the shot clock is running down, then in those cases, continuation starts on the gather and not the upward motion.

Now, if the refs are consistent in calling all of these by the rule book, it will look inconsistent to a viewer (and even players who many don't read the rules unless it's like Chris Paul), because one time it's on the gather (drives inside lower defensive box), another it's on upward motion (jumpshots, drives outside the lower defensive box, power ups from post-ups or inside), but then when the clock is about to expire, running jumpshots are continuation on gather not upward motion.

So the question becomes whether the refs are being inconsistent or whether we are actually the ones that aren't understanding how continuation is officiated

https://official.nba.com/inside-the-rulebook-continuation/

[cupcakesnake]

Called it in the game thread. SGA is calling attention to the fact that he's being handchecked. Ref shouldn't have to require a rip through to call this. Half of what we get angry about in terms of foulbaiting is a result of the refs not calling the game right.

Basically. I don't understand the drama happening in this thread, but I feel in an increasing minority on the Shai foul drawing narrative.

A lot of not getting called for fouls is defensive discipline. Hand in the cookie jar when a guy goes into a shooting motion is what refs are trained to look for. They can't measure force of contact, they just see a hand interfering with a shooting motion and it's a not brainer

At any level of basketball, when you go up against a guy good at drawing fouls, you use your hands less. Use your feet, keep the arms up.

There are plenty of Shai grifts to complain about, but this one is just easy money and I don't see a ref not making that call.

[Wingy]

Foul baiting sucks, but this play is an awful example. Brown clearly brings his arm in and is out of position.

[vagelis]

The foul baiting is real in NBA but this one is not a good example.
This was a foul

[Hoop Hunter]

That's a legit obvious foul. That's not foul baiting. Brown put his arm out and impeded SGA almost immediately.

What Embiid, Trae Young, Harding does all the time is foul baiting. I hate that ****.

[Ainosterhaspie]

Defender is impeding the offensive player and pinning the off arm away from the ball. Both are and have always been illegal. Refs would have let it slide if Shai had not forced them to make the call. Defender was cheating, he got caught. I'm not mad.

[Himothy Duncan]

Blame Harden. He ruined the NBA.

[Patches Perry]

OKC aside, I would support the NBA allowing a little more handsy-ness defensively, but the NBA has made it clear for over a decade that you must defend with your feet. That means positioning and balance is everything. If you reach or are off balance, you are naturally going to be very vulernable to fouling. Shai is exceptionally good at putting defenders in these positions with his herky-jerky stop-and-go athleticism. Balance and positioning in the NBA defense is like "looking back at the ball" for a cornerback defending. Officials are not going to give you the benefit of the doubt if you're out of position and no longer making a play on the ball.

As an aside, I do think watching defenders who are still elite at defending in spite of these rules is very entertaining. Jrue Holiday over the years has done it better than anyone probably. He is the embodiment of pure defensive discipline. Watching defenders in the old guard wasn't as fun, because they would just hold and push. Being able to successfully defend through purely positioning, balance and contesting is very impressive. Also why I think OKC's defense is more fun to watch than their offense.

I hope you're being ironic. OKC's defense is mostly hand checking, slapping and running through screens - which is what everyone would do if it wasnt called a foul everywhere else.

I remember how Jokic's arms looked in the middle of the game. As if he wrestled a bear. Probably because everyone is so great at "positioning and defending with their feet".

I hear the complaints but I just can't believe the conspiracy that the NBA is rigging games for OKC's defense, which is what would be required to believe that officials, who regularly review games pretty vigorously, are knowingly continuing to favor OKC and let them do what they knowingly and intentionally forbid other teams from doing.

More likely is that OKC has a bunch of great defenders who are high IQ, move well, position well and communicate with each other well. It helps that SGA has a 6'11 wingspan, Jdub 7'2 wingspan, Dort 6'9 wingspan, Wiggins 6'11 wingspan along with guys like Caruso and Wallace who have incredible defensive instincts. They fly around, position themselves well, get a million deflections, and generally speed up the offense with their defensive pace.

There is kind of a gish gallop with OKC defense complaints, where people assume there are a bunch of fouls they get away with every game but everyone always cites them collectively rather than giving concrete individual examples. If individual examples are given, they are all in and of themselves weak arguments, but collectively it's supposed to be compelling.

OKC is having a historic defensive season, and in all my years of basketball, there has always been the complaint that these kind of historic defensive teams get favoritism. Most notably the 2008 Celtics and 2004 Pistons, but even the Timberwolves last year got a lot of the same complaints. Usually it just means they have a lot of good defenders and it's frustrating to watch an offense play against them if you're rooting against OKC.