Draymond & Klay only have two all-NBA selections each

[floppymoose]

Maybe Klay, but maybe

Dray ?

Dray deserves several more than Klay.

[The4thHorseman]

2016 I think you can make the argument that Draymond should have been all-NBA 1st team at Center over DeAndre Jordan, but at the same time so much of what Green does depends on Curry. Green is 51-73 in his career when Curry isn’t playing.

Except for the fact that Draymond's primary position was PF and played that much more than he played Center.

That never stopped people from putting Duncan in as a forward on All-NBA when he primarily played center.

That happened like 3 times when Timmy was listed as a Center on the Spurs roster but was voted as Forward for All-NBA. It shouldn't happen cause Oberto was getting the starts at Center in 07 and 08. DeAndre played 81gms in 2016 at Center while Draymond primarily played Forward. It's not really a head scratcher as to why DJ was voted over Dray at Center.

[sp6r=underrated]

Maybe Klay, but maybe

Dray ?

Dray deserves several more than Klay.

A lot of people don't realize how great the Warriors were defensively, how much it was essential to the Warriors peaks and how Dray drove all of that. Those same people don't appreciate how that forced a lot of teams to play much smaller than they wanted which helped fuel their offense.

He is just an incredible player. And I say that as a Knick fan living in SF who roots against the Warriors most of the time.

[WarriorGM]

Defensively, Draymond's incredible play obviously has nothing to do with Curry.

Wrong.

Many of Draymond's incredible defensive plays would lose half their value if the Warriors failed to gain possession of the loose ball that ensued. Curry was picking up a lot of those loose balls. Curry's mobility and quick hands in this regard are greatly underappreciated.

Defense improves the more holes are plugged. Curry allows for the playing of more defensively oriented players.

Defense is also a lot about effort. Players will give effort if they know they have a chance to win. Having Curry always gives you a chance to win and provides a large morale bonus.

[lessthanjake]

Klay shouldn’t have any all-NBA selections, since he was never a top 15 player in the league. Draymond should probably have more than two though—it should probably be three, or possibly even four.

Klay had too many high level playoff performances to be labeled an all time “pretty good”. Of course that has nothing to do with all-nba selections but just pointing out as an observation.

Klay is really not a great playoff performer. He’s streaky, so he’s occasionally had really good games. But overall, he is definitely not a great playoff performer. For his career, he has a playoff BPM of +0.4, playoff win shares per 48 mins of 0.083, and playoff PER of 13.7. These are obviously very mediocre numbers. And lest you think that that is not accounting for some sort of impact that isn’t present in the box score, Klay has a -1.9 on-off in the playoffs. He had a negative playoff EPM in 6 of his 9 playoff runs, with the other 3 playoff runs only being positive by a pretty small amount. In other words, he averages a negative playoff EPM. Perhaps you think that this obscures what he was doing in the Warriors’ best years? Well, no, not really. From 2015-2019, Klay had a playoff BPM of +0.9, playoff win shares per 48 mins of 0.100, and a playoff PER of 14.8. In those playoffs, his playoff on-off was -3.5, and his playoff EPM was +0.9, +2.0, -1.1, +1.0, and -0.5. So the box score in those years looks a little better than his overall average, but it’s all still mediocre.

Granted, all-NBA selections are not about the playoffs, but even if they were, I think it would be pretty clear that Klay doesn’t belong there.

[lessthanjake]

Maybe Klay, but maybe

Dray ?

Draymond is better than Klay. A lot better.
I dislike Draymond as much as anyone, but it's evident he was probably the best defensive player of his generation. All the Golden State championships involved some seriously elite defense anchored by Donkey.

I don't think Dray or Klay were clear cut top 15 players in any given season though. Top 20 sometimes, top 30 a lot for sure, but all-NBA is only 15 guys. Draymond.... maybe could have won 2-3 more. I'd take his defense and winning over a lot of 3rd team forwards over the years.

this talk about a guy that was an empty spot on offense for most of his career always puzzled me. especially since most of the criticisms of curry were always centered on defense. so he's supposedly playing with this elite defender that gets to be an all nba alltimer player just by virtue of his defense, but curry gets exposed over and over and over again?
nobody ever said that mitchell wasn't good enogh on defense when he was playing with rudy. all the blame fell to gobert. yet here we have the guy who's supposed to be this elite defender but they can't figure out to build a good defense unless their team is so overpowered/stacked, they don't even have to try on defense? and even then it's all "curry was exposed" talk. well... why can't this draymond guy ever cover for curry? why is the defense built in such a way to make draymond shine rather than cover the team's weaknesses? is it better for the team that way? well... where are his teams out of this world defensive results that are supposed to put him into this elite level?

he's got two all nba selections and a DPOY which seems about right, because he only ever deserved the all nba when he was actually a consistent contributor on offense and also never consistently got his team to that elite defensive level in the regular season. so we're not even talking about some elite performer on defense here, just a good role player that fits into their not superior, but sometimes decent enough defensive setup

This post confuses me, particularly the bolded portions.

Draymond became a starter in the 2014-15 season. Starting in that season, the Warriors have had seasons ranked 1st, 1st, 2nd, 4th, and 5th in the league on defense. They *have* had elite defenses on many occasions. And, starting in 2014-15, their defenses in the playoffs have had opponent-relative DRTGs of -7.9, -7.5, -5.8, -4.5, -4.2, and -2.0 (negative numbers are good here), which was notably better than their regular season relative DRTG in all but one year. So they’ve often been elite regular season defenses and have become even more elite in the playoffs.

[lessthanjake]

Klay had too many high level playoff performances to be labeled an all time “pretty good”. Of course that has nothing to do with all-nba selections but just pointing out as an observation.

Klay has also had entire series and playoff runs of subpar play, especially anything after 2016. Draymond is the very clear secondary driver of the warriors dynasty. He is the reason they have basically been as much a defensive dynasty as offensive (outside of the KD years). Basically any impact stat you can find will have Draymond looking like a superstar and it makes it very clear the Draymond/Steph synergy is the real key to the warriors success.

Klay is basically the Tony Parker of the warriors. The guy who sometimes weirdly is thought of as the second best in the trio but is far, far behind the Draymond/manu of the group and who has had some shockingly poor playoffs during championships.

Klay was averaging 24 ppg on 70% ts before tearing his ACL vs Toronto. Ppl bring up KD getting hurt but Klay being healthy is an all time what if that series.

That’s probably true, and I am of the view that the Warriors probably win the 2019 Finals if Klay didn’t get injured (i.e. I think they win a very close series even with Durant out). Klay genuinely was playing great in that series. But he also got injured and missed a game and a half. I can’t really give him a lot of credit for playing great in a series that he missed a substantial portion of.

[Special_Puppy]

How I would have voted for All-NBA over the Years
2015: 2nd Team All-NBA for Draymond. 3rd Team All-NBA for Klay
2016: 2nd Team All-NBA for Draymond
2017: 2nd Team All-NBA for Draymond
2018-Present: Wouldn't have voted either of them for NBA

[wegotthabeet]

Klay had too many high level playoff performances to be labeled an all time “pretty good”. Of course that has nothing to do with all-nba selections but just pointing out as an observation.

Klay has also had entire series and playoff runs of subpar play, especially anything after 2016. Draymond is the very clear secondary driver of the warriors dynasty. He is the reason they have basically been as much a defensive dynasty as offensive (outside of the KD years). Basically any impact stat you can find will have Draymond looking like a superstar and it makes it very clear the Draymond/Steph synergy is the real key to the warriors success.

Klay is basically the Tony Parker of the warriors. The guy who sometimes weirdly is thought of as the second best in the trio but is far, far behind the Draymond/manu of the group and who has had some shockingly poor playoffs during championships.

Klay was averaging 24 ppg on 70% ts before tearing his ACL vs Toronto. Ppl bring up KD getting hurt but Klay being healthy is an all time what if that series.

They would’ve lost regardless.

[Special_Puppy]

Maybe Klay, but maybe

Dray ?

Draymond is better than Klay. A lot better.
I dislike Draymond as much as anyone, but it's evident he was probably the best defensive player of his generation. All the Golden State championships involved some seriously elite defense anchored by Donkey.

I don't think Dray or Klay were clear cut top 15 players in any given season though. Top 20 sometimes, top 30 a lot for sure, but all-NBA is only 15 guys. Draymond.... maybe could have won 2-3 more. I'd take his defense and winning over a lot of 3rd team forwards over the years.

Draymond was comfortably a top 10 player from 2015-2017. He was a well above average player offensively in those years while having a DPOY level impact. There are a lot of things that back this up (advanced stats for one), but the lineup data really stands out

From 2015-2017, the Curry+Draymond lineups (with no Durant) had an astounding +17.4 net rating. Steph lineups with no Draymond or Durant were +7.5 in that time period. Surprisingly the Draymond only lineups faired somewhat better with a +9.6 net rating.


https://www.pbpstats.com/wowy-combos/nba?TeamId=1610612744&Season=2014-15,2015-16,2016-17&SeasonType=All&PlayerIds=201939,203110,201142&Leverage=Medium,High,VeryHigh

[og15]

Klay shouldn’t have any all-NBA selections, since he was never a top 15 player in the league. Draymond should probably have more than two though—it should probably be three, or possibly even four.

Pure ability wise, Lillard or Butler would have been over Klay in 14-15. Butler I could see the games played argument as Klay played 12 more.

Harden should easily have been over him in 15-16.

All-NBA should not be treated as a team award. Now, okay if your team is like under 35 wins or something, that's different, but a primary guy on a 40-50 win team would not be losing to a lesser player just because his team is superior.

------

Draymond plays a tough position for All-NBA. In 17-18, he was beat by Lebron, Durant, Giannis, LMA, Butler, PG.

From 18-19 to 21-22 he played 66, 43, 63, 46, so that's not going to get him in.

In 22-23 he's now 32, impact is decreased. Then last season, even if he played well enough, he played 55 games. So after his two All-NBA's, there's been two possible seasons, 17-18 and then jump all the way to 32 year old Draymond in 22-23 based on the amount of genes he was missing.

[adubmac]

Klay would've been amazing for any team. Draymond not so much, unless Steph was on it.

[canada_dry]

I remember klays reaction when he was informed he missed out on all nba and a bigger paycheck to kemba Walker lol

Sent from my SM-G960W using RealGM mobile app

[BodieB]

In court of public opinion Draymond hasn’t helped himself regarding voter accolades. On the court he’s one of the most impactful players of his generation (in his prime).

Yet almost completely reliant on another player to have an impact. Nah, can't agree with that.

[NZB2323]

Except for the fact that Draymond's primary position was PF and played that much more than he played Center.

That never stopped people from putting Duncan in as a forward on All-NBA when he primarily played center.

That happened like 3 times when Timmy was listed as a Center on the Spurs roster but was voted as Forward for All-NBA. It shouldn't happen cause Oberto was getting the starts at Center in 07 and 08. DeAndre played 81gms in 2016 at Center while Draymond primarily played Forward. It's not really a head scratcher as to why DJ was voted over Dray at Center.

In 2009 and 2010 Duncan played 100% of his minutes at center and was voted on all-NBA as a forward. In 2008 he played 94% of his minutes at center and was voted as a forward. In 2007 Duncan played 71% of his minutes at center and was voted as a forward.

In 2016 Green played 20% of his minutes at center and the best lineup in the league had Draymond Green at center, which was so good it was called the Death Lineup and helped the Warriors set the record for most wins in a season. I think it would have been perfectly reasonable to have Green on the 1st team at center over DeAndre Jordan.

[wegotthabeet]

In court of public opinion Draymond hasn’t helped himself regarding voter accolades. On the court he’s one of the most impactful players of his generation (in his prime).

Yet almost completely reliant on another player to have an impact. Nah, can't agree with that.

Without Draymond (pre Durant signing) they would’ve been on a similar trajectory to the Suns of the 2000s. Prime Draymond is the piece that makes the whole thing work. Put prime Draymond on those 2000 Suns teams and they win two or championships from 2005-2010.

I would say he’s the most underrated player of the 21st century because people don’t understand his impact during his prime. DPOY anchor on D and he’s the main initiator on offense. He was a superstar star role player if such a thing exists. He would never be able to lead a team on his own you’re right, but you can’t deny his impact.

It goes in order of impact Curry first, Draymond second and Klay a distant third.

[cupcakesnake]

Sometimes I forget we got Dray/Klay without Steph in the playoffs for the better part of 2 playoff series in 2016. Curry missed the first round against a James Harden Houston team, and returned against Portland with Golden State already up 2-1.

Not that that team was just Klay and Dray. They had Iggy (not old yet), Bogut (not that old yet), Barnes, Livingston... solid squad that won a record 73 games. However, Klay and Dray looked perfectly capable running things against an 8 and 5 seed.

Draymond against Portland was insane. 22ppg, 11rpg, 7.4apg, 3.2 blocks! Klay put up 30ppg and hit half his shots.

[Special_Puppy]

Sometimes I forget we got Dray/Klay without Steph in the playoffs for the better part of 2 playoff series in 2016. Curry missed the first round against a James Harden Houston team, and returned against Portland with Golden State already up 2-1.

Not that that team was just Klay and Dray. They had Iggy (not old yet), Bogut (not that old yet), Barnes, Livingston... solid squad that won a record 73 games. However, Klay and Dray looked perfectly capable running things against an 8 and 5 seed.

Draymond against Portland was insane. 22ppg, 11rpg, 7.4apg, 3.2 blocks! Klay put up 30ppg and hit half his shots.

I forgot how badly the Warriors crushed the Rockets that year. Warriors had a 19 point net rating that series lol https://cleaningtheglass.com/stats/league/summary?season=2015&seasontype=playoffs&start=10/1/2015&end=10/15/2016&opponent=10

[Special_Puppy]

In court of public opinion Draymond hasn’t helped himself regarding voter accolades. On the court he’s one of the most impactful players of his generation (in his prime).

Yet almost completely reliant on another player to have an impact. Nah, can't agree with that.

Draymond's net rating without Steph since 2015 is +2.6. Curry's net rating without Draymond is +5.7 in that timespan. https://www.pbpstats.com/wowy-combos/nba?TeamId=1610612744&Season=2024-25,2023-24,2022-23,2021-22,2020-21,2019-20,2018-19,2017-18,2016-17,2015-16,2014-15&SeasonType=All&PlayerIds=201939,203110&Leverage=Medium,High,VeryHigh

[Hook_Em]

How I would have voted for All-NBA over the Years
2015: 2nd Team All-NBA for Draymond. 3rd Team All-NBA for Klay
2016: 2nd Team All-NBA for Draymond
2017: 2nd Team All-NBA for Draymond
2018-Present: Wouldn't have voted either of them for NBA

FWIW Klay was the most durable member of the big-4 for those three years. KD and Steph missed a lot of games in that span especially Steph. I think you can squeeze Klay on third team one of those seasons.