Luka Dončić, Nikola Jokic and James Harden are redefining athleticism

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Re: Luka Dončić, Nikola Jokic and James Harden are redefining athleticism 

Post#21 » by CloudWalker » Wed Apr 23, 2025 4:45 pm

og15 wrote:
CloudWalker wrote:
lambchop wrote:
Gaining weight will diminish that traditional athleticism. "Fat don't fly" is a real thing.


Why are people trying to rewrite history? Luka has never been considered "traditionally athletic". Never. It was the main reason he was selected 3rd in the draft.

There have always been question marks around his athleticism, he simply immediately proved that these limitations didn't matter since he was just so, so good and able to overcome them with his insane play. Luka has never been good because of his athleticism, it's other things that have made him one of the best offensive players in the league over the last 5 years.

Example from a scouting report, pre 2018 draft:

At 6-foot-8, Doncic has ideal size. He’s versatile enough to play both guard positions, though many think he will transform into a full-time point guard in the NBA. He’s an excellent playmaker. Arguably his best trait is his ability to orchestrate in a half-court set using his superb vision, instincts and high basketball IQ. While he’s not very athletic or agile, and has little to no explosion off the bounce, Doncic is one of the craftiest prospects we’ve seen in a while. Like current NBA players such as James Harden, Evan Fournier and Manu Ginobili, Doncic has remarkably good footwork. He’s so shifty and unpredictable that defenders have a hard time anticipating his movements.

There are concerns about his lack of athleticism and sprightliness, though. He doesn’t slide his feet well laterally, which could make it easy for opponents to play him one-on-one when he’s on an island defensively. Also, though he has unlimited range and good mechanics, Doncic is a streaky long-distance shooter. He’s much more consistent shooting off the bounce and will sometimes settle for inefficient shots if he can’t shake his defender.

Link:https://www.nba.com/magic/2018-draft-prospects-luka-doncic

Another:

Doncic has below average athleticism and will have a big adjustment to make playing against NBA size and speed. There are a lot of questions about who he’ll guard at the next level. He projects as an average defender at best, and possibly a liability on D.

Doncic doesn’t have great foot speed and could struggle to get to the rim against NBA defenders, and his lack of jumping ability will make it hard to score in traffic. He’s got a solid frame but one that is compact, heavy and lacks length.

Can be a little bit sloppy with the ball and needs to tighten up his handles and make better decisions with the ball to avoid careless turnovers.

Can be a streaky shooter, especially from downtown.

Link: https://nbadraftroom.com/luka-doncic-nba-draft-scouting-report/

I could find more examples, these are just the first two sources I found. I'm sure other reports were similar though, I was really into the 2018 draft and I remember various narratives around Luka very well.

Would anyone else but Divac with his agenda have passed on Luka at 2nd? Not sure about main reason.

Luka was never considered "traditionally athletic", he had athleticism, but he was not a jump out of the gym blazing speed athlete at any point and trying to suggest he was is very odd and makes ones observation abilities very questionable.


Sure, the bolded is more of an assumption on my part, but his lack of "traditional athleticism" was constantly brough up in draft reports and discussions so I wouldn't be surprised if it contributed to him not being drafted #1 or #2. But yeah, who knows what the actual reason was.

My point was just that he has never been considered super athletic and my view of him is very much in line with what's described in OP's article. And I agree with your as well.
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Re: Luka Dončić, Nikola Jokic and James Harden are redefining athleticism 

Post#22 » by Nuntius » Wed Apr 23, 2025 4:48 pm

tsherkin wrote:But, to borrow the old saying, there are many ways to skin a cat.


But let's be clear. We shouldn't be utilizing any of these ways. Do NOT skin cats.
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Re: Luka Dončić, Nikola Jokic and James Harden are redefining athleticism 

Post#23 » by tsherkin » Wed Apr 23, 2025 4:50 pm

Nuntius wrote:
tsherkin wrote:But, to borrow the old saying, there are many ways to skin a cat.


But let's be clear. We shouldn't be utilizing any of these ways. Do NOT skin cats.


Well, if they're rude and won't stop meowing for food when they clearly have nearly a full bowl...

/s
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Re: Luka Dončić, Nikola Jokic and James Harden are redefining athleticism 

Post#24 » by Nuntius » Wed Apr 23, 2025 4:51 pm

tsherkin wrote:
Nuntius wrote:
tsherkin wrote:But, to borrow the old saying, there are many ways to skin a cat.


But let's be clear. We shouldn't be utilizing any of these ways. Do NOT skin cats.


Well, if they're rude and won't stop meowing for food when they clearly have nearly a full bowl...

/s


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Re: Luka Dončić, Nikola Jokic and James Harden are redefining athleticism 

Post#25 » by tsherkin » Wed Apr 23, 2025 4:52 pm

CloudWalker wrote:Sure, the bolded is more of an assumption on my part, but his lack of "traditional athleticism" was constantly brough up in draft reports and discussions so I wouldn't be surprised if it contributed to him not being drafted #1 or #2. But yeah, who knows what the actual reason was.

My point was just that he has never been considered super athletic and my view of him is very much in line with what's described in OP's article. And I agree with your as well.



Luka has size and skill, plus he has mobility with a live dribble. As the league has come to appreciate the value of screens more and more, guys who don't have killer first steps have more and more opportunity opening up. Luka presents a threat to do just about anything EXCEPT explode right past you, and he has Old Man game anyway. If he can get the angle, he can put you on his hip, protect the ball and just ride you all the way to the rim, or from wherever he wants to take the shot. That level of awareness, strength and ball handling couples well to his ability to hit shots from all over the floor.

It really makes up a lot for lack of elite burst, though obviously he was having a bit of a down year this season in the RS due to health reasons. Seems back at it right now, though, doesn't he?
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Re: Luka Dončić, Nikola Jokic and James Harden are redefining athleticism 

Post#26 » by Ice Man » Wed Apr 23, 2025 5:03 pm

tsherkin wrote:Luka has size and skill, plus he has mobility with a live dribble. As the league has come to appreciate the value of screens more and more, guys who don't have killer first steps have more and more opportunity opening up. Luka presents a threat to do just about anything EXCEPT explode right past you, and he has Old Man game anyway. If he can get the angle, he can put you on his hip, protect the ball and just ride you all the way to the rim, or from wherever he wants to take the shot.


See Butler, Jimmy. The required elements for that tactic are 1) physical strength, 2) excellent balance, 3) a tight handle, and 4) high BBIQ. Josh Giddey on my Bulls is looking like he will fit into this mode, too.
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Re: Luka Dončić, Nikola Jokic and James Harden are redefining athleticism 

Post#27 » by tsherkin » Wed Apr 23, 2025 5:06 pm

Ice Man wrote:See Butler, Jimmy. The required elements for that tactic are 1) physical strength, 2) excellent balance, 3) a tight handle, and 4) high BBIQ. Josh Giddey on my Bulls is looking like he will fit into this mode, too.


Butler's quicker than Doncic even now, but yeah. It is a big part of why he's 35 and still drawing north of .600 FTr and taking nearly 30% of his shots at the rim. He's far less of a shooting threat (at least from 3), but he can at least pull up short and damage you in and around the circle, which makes a world of difference for slashers.
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Re: Luka Dončić, Nikola Jokic and James Harden are redefining athleticism 

Post#28 » by Pattycakes » Wed Apr 23, 2025 5:09 pm

tsherkin wrote:
Nuntius wrote:
tsherkin wrote:But, to borrow the old saying, there are many ways to skin a cat.


But let's be clear. We shouldn't be utilizing any of these ways. Do NOT skin cats.


Well, if they're rude and won't stop meowing for food when they clearly have nearly a full bowl...

/s


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Re: Luka Dončić, Nikola Jokic and James Harden are redefining athleticism 

Post#29 » by uvlOzzy » Wed Apr 23, 2025 6:04 pm

shrink wrote:Sports Science did athletic tests on Harden, and found he was below average in every category except one .. he was elite at stopping his own momentum. Very cool that with one, questionable, athletic advantage, he developed his skills so highly that it was plenty to become such a successful player.


There were very similar reports regarding Dončić already before the draft. Most people didn't give a **** about it though.
I think there was even one video where exactly Harden was used for comparison, but I cannot find it.

Pre-draft video:
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Re: Luka Dončić, Nikola Jokic and James Harden are redefining athleticism 

Post#30 » by TheGeneral99 » Wed Apr 23, 2025 6:08 pm

How is this new?

Bird and Magic were similar players to guys like Doncic, Jokic, Harden etc. in their playstyles - two guys that were not crazy explosive by any measure but extremely shifty, great hand eye coordination, excellent vision, great anticipation, and did everything on the court.

Jordan was the guy who was uniquely and insanely explosive/athletic beyond anyone we had seen.
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Re: Luka Dončić, Nikola Jokic and James Harden are redefining athleticism 

Post#31 » by Bad Bart » Wed Apr 23, 2025 6:09 pm

peZt wrote:The most underrated aspect of athleticism and frankly almost the most important one is the ability to quickly change directions, speeds, to have that wiggle and elasticity in the body, to be able to change up your dribble on a dime. Harden and Doncic are elite at that. And then you have guys like Wiggins. Who are old school athletic. Very fast in a sprint, can jump out of the gym, but dont have any wiggle or change of direction abilities so their raw athleticism isnt really much useful

I'm also always wary of wing or guard prospect that always run at 100% speed. Look at guys like Harden or Paul or Doncic. They are able to get where they want on the field while looking like they are just jogging through the field. Simply by using the correct angles, changing their direction, using handles, using their body as a shield and so on.
Players who can only get by their defender by running at them full speed usually lack those skills, which imo are the most important ones for a guard/wing prospect.


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Re: Luka Dončić, Nikola Jokic and James Harden are redefining athleticism 

Post#32 » by SA37 » Wed Apr 23, 2025 7:07 pm

shrink wrote:Sports Science did athletic tests on Harden, and found he was below average in every category except one .. he was elite at stopping his own momentum. Very cool that with one, questionable, athletic advantage, he developed his skills so highly that it was plenty to become such a successful player.


Interesting because I think he has a quick first step and then he is a master at getting his shoulder into you and you just can't recover. And just based on the eye test, I think James Harden is a better athlete than either Doncic or Jokic. Harden was never a great athlete, but he has a few highlight dunks. Have Luke or Jokic ever dunked on anyone? :lol:
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Re: Luka Dončić, Nikola Jokic and James Harden are redefining athleticism 

Post#33 » by Optms » Wed Apr 23, 2025 8:34 pm

Prime Harden really had people he was the GOAT out there.
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Re: Luka Dončić, Nikola Jokic and James Harden are redefining athleticism 

Post#34 » by dc » Wed Apr 23, 2025 8:35 pm

TheGeneral99 wrote:How is this new?

Bird and Magic were similar players to guys like Doncic, Jokic, Harden etc. in their playstyles - two guys that were not crazy explosive by any measure but extremely shifty, great hand eye coordination, excellent vision, great anticipation, and did everything on the court.

Jordan was the guy who was uniquely and insanely explosive/athletic beyond anyone we had seen.


Don't forget insane levels of balance and the strength to take bumps/contact and still remain on balance.

Guys like Darius Miles and Larry Hughes would be examples of players who were more explosive but lacked balance and weren't good playing through contact.
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Re: Luka Dončić, Nikola Jokic and James Harden are redefining athleticism 

Post#35 » by tsherkin » Wed Apr 23, 2025 9:04 pm

dc wrote:
TheGeneral99 wrote:How is this new?

Bird and Magic were similar players to guys like Doncic, Jokic, Harden etc. in their playstyles - two guys that were not crazy explosive by any measure but extremely shifty, great hand eye coordination, excellent vision, great anticipation, and did everything on the court.

Jordan was the guy who was uniquely and insanely explosive/athletic beyond anyone we had seen.


Don't forget insane levels of balance and the strength to take bumps/contact and still remain on balance.

Guys like Darius Miles and Larry Hughes would be examples of players who were more explosive but lacked balance and weren't good playing through contact.


And considerably less skilled.
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Re: Luka Dončić, Nikola Jokic and James Harden are redefining athleticism 

Post#36 » by Yuri36 » Wed Apr 23, 2025 9:16 pm

Bob8 wrote:I don't know how athletic Luka is, but I sincerely doubt that fat, non athletic dude can average 31points, 8.7 BPM in playoffs.


....unless he has GOAT basketball level of pure talent and IQ.

And that's precisely why guys like me are sad that he doesn't care more about his conditioning or at the very least like any NBA point guard should.
If he had just stayed to the level of athleticism and fitness he had 4/5 years ago, he would still be on a GOAT trajectory in my opinion.

Now, with the way he treats his body and cares about his fitness and in particular all the injuries he's been getting because of this, he is "only" on the trajectory to become at best a top 25/30 player of all time (which is still obviously awesome but a tad disappointing considering his godly talent at basketball)
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Re: Luka Dončić, Nikola Jokic and James Harden are redefining athleticism 

Post#37 » by Bob8 » Wed Apr 23, 2025 9:25 pm

Yuri36 wrote:
Bob8 wrote:I don't know how athletic Luka is, but I sincerely doubt that fat, non athletic dude can average 31points, 8.7 BPM in playoffs.


....unless he has GOAT basketball level of pure talent and IQ.

And that's precisely why guys like me are sad that he doesn't care more about his conditioning.
If he had just stayed to the level of athleticism and fitness he had 4/5 years ago, he would still be on a GOAT trajectory in my opinion.

Now, with the way he treats his body and cares about his fitness and in particular all the injuries he's been getting because of this, he is "only" on the trajectory to become a top 25/30 player of all time (which is still obviously awesome but a tad disappointing considering his godly talent at basketball)


No, it's impossible. Luka was last year averaging 34/9/10, 62 TS%, played the most minutes, RS + playoffs, and was a leader in more or less all categories in playoffs. Fat and bad conditioned? :lol:

MJ had different genetics, that's why he's the GOAT.
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Re: Luka Dončić, Nikola Jokic and James Harden are redefining athleticism 

Post#38 » by levon » Wed Apr 23, 2025 9:31 pm

uvlOzzy wrote:
shrink wrote:Sports Science did athletic tests on Harden, and found he was below average in every category except one .. he was elite at stopping his own momentum. Very cool that with one, questionable, athletic advantage, he developed his skills so highly that it was plenty to become such a successful player.


There were very similar reports regarding Dončić already before the draft. Most people didn't give a **** about it though.
I think there was even one video where exactly Harden was used for comparison, but I cannot find it.

Pre-draft video:
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The other thing about Luka is his uncanny ability to suddenly switch up his rhythm. It's like decel but in the more abstract sense. Kobe used to talk about how he would watch tape and memorize tendencies and rhythms. Once he sensed that his defender was attuned to his, he would suddenly switch it up. Luka will be playing in one time signature and then suddenly switch to another. And unlike Kobe, he can do this both as a scorer and as a passer, keeping the defense guessing until the last fraction of a second.

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