LeBron has the worst plus/minus of any player on a good team

[DonaldSanders]

Raw plus minus...dude, get a better hobby. There's plenty of things to hate on lebron for. You don't need to misuse stats to do it.

he is 56th in EPM as well so definitely not noise.. Lebron is the greatest 40 year old NBA player ever but he is no All NBA.. As great as Lebron is I dont think he needs these freebies to add things to his amazing resume.

I think the point is though that the plus-minus is only useful if you're viewing it in context with a bunch of other stats. On it's own it's not particularly good.

[Ainosterhaspie]

I agree with this take from the age thread. Fits my impressions. Expressed better than I've been able to.

This is what I find complicated about Lebron at this stage of his career. He's clearly playing extremely well and piling up stats. He's an efficient scorer, a monster playmaker witout being turnover prone, and a competitor who finds little edges over the course of a game and makes plays on both ends.

What Lebron has lost is his elite ability to create advantages for himself and others. I was thinking about this in game 3, as Lebron piled up 38 points on 75%ts, prompting plenty of fans to talk about how he's still got it, and how he can still turn back the clock in the playoffs. Some veteran player fade but then have nights where they're feeling good and can do a passable impression of their former glory.

Lebron isn't really like that. Lebron is an entirely different player who- to his credit- has successfully reinvented himself into a guy who can still give you legit all-nba production. Prime Lebron's super power was his rim pressure. In the half court, he could batter his way to the rim with speed/explosiveness/strength, collapse the entire defense, and then use his super computer brain and strong arms to find open 3-point shooters everywhere. That was "Lebron Ball". It took the entire defense to guard him and you still couldn't stop him from generating strong offense.

Lakers Lebron doesn't have a first step advantage. He can't break down the defense with his physical tools at all. In the half court, you can guard him with a center if you want. His scoring game relies on transition buckets (man is still FAST), and getting hot on above the break 3s (these are hit and miss but when he's hot, he can light it up). He has a nice post up game, but each Lakers season the list of guys he could post got shorter. Lebron is still a genius with a high-motor, so he finds ways to score and play make in the margins. He punishes teams for errors and finds little opportunities. Lebron will absolutely search your couch cushions for extra points and fine some. He's really working for those points, and his this type of scoring game doesn't collapse the defense, draw 2 to the ball, or get teammates open. The Wolves are out there guarding him 1-on-1 with Julius Randle and Naz Reid, not sending help, and even okay to leave him to help somewhere else.

So yes, Lebron's production matches that of a 50m player, no question. However, he doesn't do the things teams usually rely on a star to do. He can't be the tip of a speak on offense anymore. Lebron is like a god-level version of a veteran glue guy. You can see it on his face sometimes, he knows he needs someone else to do the advantage creation, she he can punish teams on the margins. He needs open 3s, space to cut into, and he needs to not have a defense be able to throw resources at him. I think Lebron can put up near MVP numbers still if you give him the usage, but for championship playoff basketball, I think you'd want Lebron as your 3rd or 4th guy who's out there to support and enhance your main scorers. Obviously hard to have that when he's being paid to be a top 15 player (best player on a team money).

Lebron is playing amazing. He's arguably been the best player in this series by the numbers. But then it's like... how are the Lakers -11.5 points worse in Lebron minutes, and +14.5 better in Luka minutes? It's because Lebron can't be your engine. He's still absolutely freaking amazing, but he's lost the physical tools that allow him to anchor a team offense. Wolves are hyper focused on shutting down Luka, and having some degree of success, and we're living with Lebron occasionally killing us, even if it feel scary.

[cpower]

Raw plus minus...dude, get a better hobby. There's plenty of things to hate on lebron for. You don't need to misuse stats to do it.

he is 56th in EPM as well so definitely not noise.. Lebron is the greatest 40 year old NBA player ever but he is no All NBA.. As great as Lebron is I dont think he needs these freebies to add things to his amazing resume.

I think the point is though that the plus-minus is only useful if you're viewing it in context with a bunch of other stats. On it's own it's not particularly good.

i was talking about not to look at raw on/off but other metrics like EPM which uses a RAPM on SPM,

[dhsilv2]

Raw plus minus...dude, get a better hobby. There's plenty of things to hate on lebron for. You don't need to misuse stats to do it.

he is 56th in EPM as well so definitely not noise.. Lebron is the greatest 40 year old NBA player ever but he is no All NBA.. As great as Lebron is I dont think he needs these freebies to add things to his amazing resume.

No, that's noise. The 56th best player in the league isn't a negative player...

[art_tatum]

I feel so bad for this vast cabal of posters who only exist to hate Lebron James. The best basketball player of all-time who has been the face of this league we love for over 20 years with nary a scandal and elite play from damn near stem to stern.

I can't imagine how much one's own life has to suck to spend this much constant time and energy attacking a guy like LeBron. But I sure hope all of you meet someone, or re-connect with family, or find a cause, or just a good dog. You need some positivity in life. This ain't healthy.

Kinda a indirect personal attack there as a mod.

I mean it’s not even that bad of a LeBron thread.

Just talking about his +/- compared to other players.

Though some words OP are using is a bit baiting

[cpower]

Raw plus minus...dude, get a better hobby. There's plenty of things to hate on lebron for. You don't need to misuse stats to do it.

he is 56th in EPM as well so definitely not noise.. Lebron is the greatest 40 year old NBA player ever but he is no All NBA.. As great as Lebron is I dont think he needs these freebies to add things to his amazing resume.

No, that's noise. The 56th best player in the league isn't a negative player...

The 56th best player should not be All NBA 2nd team though

[dhsilv2]

he is 56th in EPM as well so definitely not noise.. Lebron is the greatest 40 year old NBA player ever but he is no All NBA.. As great as Lebron is I dont think he needs these freebies to add things to his amazing resume.

No, that's noise. The 56th best player in the league isn't a negative player...

The 56th best player should not be All NBA 2nd team though

Great....that has nothing to do with my post. And it's beyond rude to add that given how clearly I was in this thread about that.

[Texas Chuck]

I feel so bad for this vast cabal of posters who only exist to hate Lebron James. The best basketball player of all-time who has been the face of this league we love for over 20 years with nary a scandal and elite play from damn near stem to stern.

I can't imagine how much one's own life has to suck to spend this much constant time and energy attacking a guy like LeBron. But I sure hope all of you meet someone, or re-connect with family, or find a cause, or just a good dog. You need some positivity in life. This ain't healthy.

Kinda a indirect personal attack there as a mod.

I mean it’s not even that bad of a LeBron thread.

Just talking about his +/- compared to other players.

Though some words OP are using is a bit baiting

Look at the top of the board. I don't moderate this forum. But like all board regs we have a responsibility to help the mods police the forum or we get the forum we deserve.

Am I supposed to pretend this is the first post of the OP I've read? That seems dumb. We all know the OP isn't in good faith and is just the latest in a series.

Are there valid criticisms one could make of Lebron James play at times this year? Of course. And I don't respond to posts like that in a similar manner.

But even more importantly, I'm sincere. I really do help these guys find something good in their lives. I want this for everyone.

[falcolombardi]

I find it hilarious that now people care about plus-minus and dont dismiss it the second lebron no longer has a great one lmao

[Drygon]

I continue to not understand why folks seem to wake up and go to bed consumed with thoughts of their least favorite person. Bron doesn't even know y'all exist. Different strokes for different folks I guess, but it just seems like a recipe for a bad day.

I guess Howard Mass (RealGM admin) should just close the website permanently then. What's the point of discussing about NBA players since they doesn't even know about our existence...

People are allowed to freely express their opinions, even if it considered controversial/unpopular.

[bisme37]

I continue to not understand why folks seem to wake up and go to bed consumed with thoughts of their least favorite person. Bron doesn't even know y'all exist. Different strokes for different folks I guess, but it just seems like a recipe for a bad day.

I guess Howard Mass (RealGM admin) should just close the website permanently then. What's the point of discussing about NBA players since they doesn't even know about our existence...

People are allowed to freely express their opinions, even if it considered controversial/unpopular.

I was trying to share a tip I've picked up in my old age. Stewing over things that make me upset me just makes me upset. And I can choose to not be upset, so why would I choose the opposite? I'd like my RGM pals to have a nice life and this is an odd way to go about it imo.

[Badlands]

I feel so bad for this vast cabal of posters who only exist to hate Lebron James. The best basketball player of all-time who has been the face of this league we love for over 20 years with nary a scandal and elite play from damn near stem to stern.

I can't imagine how much one's own life has to suck to spend this much constant time and energy attacking a guy like LeBron. But I sure hope all of you meet someone, or re-connect with family, or find a cause, or just a good dog. You need some positivity in life. This ain't healthy.

Kinda a indirect personal attack there as a mod.

I mean it’s not even that bad of a LeBron thread.

Just talking about his +/- compared to other players.

Though some words OP are using is a bit baiting

Honestly, it's just great life advice. It's not healthy to spend so much time on negativity. To constantly look for negatives about someone that hasn't done anything to you personally is a poor mindset. It's much healthier to look at positives in life and people/things you enjoy.

This concludes my abbreviated Ted Talk.

[Indomitable]

Raw plus minus...dude, get a better hobby. There's plenty of things to hate on lebron for. You don't need to misuse stats to do it.

throughout his career I’ve seen people use raw plus minus to build up LeBron but now that his plus minus is historically bad suddenly it’s a meaningless stat. That’ll change again when he retires and they start talking about how great his career plus minus is

If your team is a good team and everyone else is positive.

It may carry some weight.

[Indomitable]

I agree with this take from the age thread. Fits my impressions. Expressed better than I've been able to.

This is what I find complicated about Lebron at this stage of his career. He's clearly playing extremely well and piling up stats. He's an efficient scorer, a monster playmaker witout being turnover prone, and a competitor who finds little edges over the course of a game and makes plays on both ends.

What Lebron has lost is his elite ability to create advantages for himself and others. I was thinking about this in game 3, as Lebron piled up 38 points on 75%ts, prompting plenty of fans to talk about how he's still got it, and how he can still turn back the clock in the playoffs. Some veteran player fade but then have nights where they're feeling good and can do a passable impression of their former glory.

Lebron isn't really like that. Lebron is an entirely different player who- to his credit- has successfully reinvented himself into a guy who can still give you legit all-nba production. Prime Lebron's super power was his rim pressure. In the half court, he could batter his way to the rim with speed/explosiveness/strength, collapse the entire defense, and then use his super computer brain and strong arms to find open 3-point shooters everywhere. That was "Lebron Ball". It took the entire defense to guard him and you still couldn't stop him from generating strong offense.

Lakers Lebron doesn't have a first step advantage. He can't break down the defense with his physical tools at all. In the half court, you can guard him with a center if you want. His scoring game relies on transition buckets (man is still FAST), and getting hot on above the break 3s (these are hit and miss but when he's hot, he can light it up). He has a nice post up game, but each Lakers season the list of guys he could post got shorter. Lebron is still a genius with a high-motor, so he finds ways to score and play make in the margins. He punishes teams for errors and finds little opportunities. Lebron will absolutely search your couch cushions for extra points and fine some. He's really working for those points, and his this type of scoring game doesn't collapse the defense, draw 2 to the ball, or get teammates open. The Wolves are out there guarding him 1-on-1 with Julius Randle and Naz Reid, not sending help, and even okay to leave him to help somewhere else.

So yes, Lebron's production matches that of a 50m player, no question. However, he doesn't do the things teams usually rely on a star to do. He can't be the tip of a speak on offense anymore. Lebron is like a god-level version of a veteran glue guy. You can see it on his face sometimes, he knows he needs someone else to do the advantage creation, she he can punish teams on the margins. He needs open 3s, space to cut into, and he needs to not have a defense be able to throw resources at him. I think Lebron can put up near MVP numbers still if you give him the usage, but for championship playoff basketball, I think you'd want Lebron as your 3rd or 4th guy who's out there to support and enhance your main scorers. Obviously hard to have that when he's being paid to be a top 15 player (best player on a team money).

Lebron is playing amazing. He's arguably been the best player in this series by the numbers. But then it's like... how are the Lakers -11.5 points worse in Lebron minutes, and +14.5 better in Luka minutes? It's because Lebron can't be your engine. He's still absolutely freaking amazing, but he's lost the physical tools that allow him to anchor a team offense. Wolves are hyper focused on shutting down Luka, and having some degree of success, and we're living with Lebron occasionally killing us, even if it feel scary.

Then take a pay cut.

[Ainosterhaspie]

I agree with this take from the age thread. Fits my impressions. Expressed better than I've been able to.

This is what I find complicated about Lebron at this stage of his career. He's clearly playing extremely well and piling up stats. He's an efficient scorer, a monster playmaker witout being turnover prone, and a competitor who finds little edges over the course of a game and makes plays on both ends.

What Lebron has lost is his elite ability to create advantages for himself and others. I was thinking about this in game 3, as Lebron piled up 38 points on 75%ts, prompting plenty of fans to talk about how he's still got it, and how he can still turn back the clock in the playoffs. Some veteran player fade but then have nights where they're feeling good and can do a passable impression of their former glory.

Lebron isn't really like that. Lebron is an entirely different player who- to his credit- has successfully reinvented himself into a guy who can still give you legit all-nba production. Prime Lebron's super power was his rim pressure. In the half court, he could batter his way to the rim with speed/explosiveness/strength, collapse the entire defense, and then use his super computer brain and strong arms to find open 3-point shooters everywhere. That was "Lebron Ball". It took the entire defense to guard him and you still couldn't stop him from generating strong offense.

Lakers Lebron doesn't have a first step advantage. He can't break down the defense with his physical tools at all. In the half court, you can guard him with a center if you want. His scoring game relies on transition buckets (man is still FAST), and getting hot on above the break 3s (these are hit and miss but when he's hot, he can light it up). He has a nice post up game, but each Lakers season the list of guys he could post got shorter. Lebron is still a genius with a high-motor, so he finds ways to score and play make in the margins. He punishes teams for errors and finds little opportunities. Lebron will absolutely search your couch cushions for extra points and fine some. He's really working for those points, and his this type of scoring game doesn't collapse the defense, draw 2 to the ball, or get teammates open. The Wolves are out there guarding him 1-on-1 with Julius Randle and Naz Reid, not sending help, and even okay to leave him to help somewhere else.

So yes, Lebron's production matches that of a 50m player, no question. However, he doesn't do the things teams usually rely on a star to do. He can't be the tip of a speak on offense anymore. Lebron is like a god-level version of a veteran glue guy. You can see it on his face sometimes, he knows he needs someone else to do the advantage creation, she he can punish teams on the margins. He needs open 3s, space to cut into, and he needs to not have a defense be able to throw resources at him. I think Lebron can put up near MVP numbers still if you give him the usage, but for championship playoff basketball, I think you'd want Lebron as your 3rd or 4th guy who's out there to support and enhance your main scorers. Obviously hard to have that when he's being paid to be a top 15 player (best player on a team money).

Lebron is playing amazing. He's arguably been the best player in this series by the numbers. But then it's like... how are the Lakers -11.5 points worse in Lebron minutes, and +14.5 better in Luka minutes? It's because Lebron can't be your engine. He's still absolutely freaking amazing, but he's lost the physical tools that allow him to anchor a team offense. Wolves are hyper focused on shutting down Luka, and having some degree of success, and we're living with Lebron occasionally killing us, even if it feel scary.

Then take a pay cut.

What would that achieve? What is the Lakers current cap situation? I'm not well versed in the ins and outs of the salary cap, but a look at the Lakers cap situation on BBREF suggests to me that if LeBron was at or near the vet min, the Lakers would still have no cap space to get more players. I'm open to comments from people who understand the cap better than I do, but it doesn't look to me like his salary changes anything for the Lakers right now.

[MrPainfulTruth]

In OP's defense, I do think we're seeing evidence of a drop in defensive impact. I mean the guy is 40 so to be doing what he's doing now is still insanely impressive. But yeah, after 21 straight seasons (!!) of positive on/off, this was the first season LeBron dipped into the red.

There are, of course, other factors at play. I'd blame the learning curve of playing with Luka but I'm pretty sure he was in the red before the trade too.

How would any of that explain that everyone around him is positive though?

I mean...the number checks out if you see how he refused to play defense in the regular season, doesnt it? No matter how good the offensive numbers (one could also call is stat padding), if you dont even run back on half of the defensive posessions your team will lose more than they will win. His defense has been criticised by fans, experts, players and coaches for a few years now outside of his fan bubble and ESPN, its nothing that can really be debated. We can just go to any regular season game play by play and it will become obvious that he does not even get into defensive stance, stays in fake help without ever helping and does not box out - instead either leaks out to cherry pick or stands in empty space to grab uncontested rebounds. I get that he is trying to manage his energy but i have been saying for the entire season that they cannot play winning basketball if its 4-5 on D all the time.

[MrPainfulTruth]

I continue to not understand why folks seem to wake up and go to bed consumed with thoughts of their least favorite person. Bron doesn't even know y'all exist. Different strokes for different folks I guess, but it just seems like a recipe for a bad day.

I guess Howard Mass (RealGM admin) should just close the website permanently then. What's the point of discussing about NBA players since they doesn't even know about our existence...

People are allowed to freely express their opinions, even if it considered controversial/unpopular.

I was trying to share a tip I've picked up in my old age. Stewing over things that make me upset me just makes me upset. And I can choose to not be upset, so why would I choose the opposite? I'd like my RGM pals to have a nice life and this is an odd way to go about it imo.

This isnt real life. Mabye you should think about why people even watch sports, why do they start rooting for a team, a player? Is it to appreciate the sport, then why even pick a team to root for instead of cheering for both?

There is a deeper rooted instinctive thing about rooting for "your tribe" and its part of that that you have to have a foe. It doesnt give you the same satisfaction otherwise. For some reason you seem to strongly associate with LeBron James and take offense when people dont like him, but its not unique to him. Come to europe and you will see fan bases literally go to war and kill each other to defend their clubs. Its part of sports fan culture.

[JonFromVA]

Raw plus minus...dude, get a better hobby. There's plenty of things to hate on lebron for. You don't need to misuse stats to do it.

he is 56th in EPM as well so definitely not noise.. Lebron is the greatest 40 year old NBA player ever but he is no All NBA.. As great as Lebron is I dont think he needs these freebies to add things to his amazing resume.

No, that's noise. The 56th best player in the league isn't a negative player...

I mean he literally is a negative player ... when you add up all his floor time numbers they come up negative. It's not noise, it's a hard cold fact.

The meat and potatoes are in the lineup data, but per usual people would rather scream about noise than dig in to the numbers.

I mean RAPM and EPM aren't going to sort this **** out, you've got to watch his games (something I don't do anymore) and dig in to those lineups.

And fwiw, LeBron started half assing it during his second stint with the Cavs (slowing down pace, resting on D, launching J's rather than attacking); but he'd just get his act together in time for the playoffs.

[dhsilv2]

he is 56th in EPM as well so definitely not noise.. Lebron is the greatest 40 year old NBA player ever but he is no All NBA.. As great as Lebron is I dont think he needs these freebies to add things to his amazing resume.

No, that's noise. The 56th best player in the league isn't a negative player...

I mean he literally is a negative player ... when you add up all his floor time numbers they come up negative. It's not noise, it's a hard cold fact.

The meat and potatoes are in the lineup data, but per usual people would rather scream about noise than dig in to the numbers.

I mean RAPM and EPM aren't going to sort this **** out, you've got to watch his games (something I don't do anymore) and dig in to those lineups.

And fwiw, LeBron started half assing it during his second stint with the Cavs (slowing down pace, resting on D, launching J's rather than attacking); but he'd just get his act together in time for the playoffs.

RAPM and EPM say he's a plus. Raw plus minus says he'd negative. All else equal, I'll go with the two metrics that are actually predictive.

[bkkrh]

I feel so bad for this vast cabal of posters who only exist to hate Lebron James. The best basketball player of all-time who has been the face of this league we love for over 20 years with nary a scandal and elite play from damn near stem to stern.

I can't imagine how much one's own life has to suck to spend this much constant time and energy attacking a guy like LeBron. But I sure hope all of you meet someone, or re-connect with family, or find a cause, or just a good dog. You need some positivity in life. This ain't healthy.

It really feels like a cult. Just went to the general board the first time today and there are literally 5 Lebron threads on the first page and 4 more threads where you know that the whole thread will revolve about him, while the Lakers haven't played yesterday, don't have a game scheduled today and are with one leg already out of the playoffs.

There is absolutely nothing to discuss, I never even think about Lebron at all until I come to this board. I feel like this has to be the 10th plus minus thread this year already. I don't think that all other players combined accumulate as many plus minus posts than the ones I've seen this season about Lebron.

At this point I'm even wondering if anything will change when he retires, or if people will just continue with whatever he does next. "Now he's ruining the league through his coaching/team management/owning a team/having abandoned Basketball".

Maybe best thing would be to make a Lebron section on the board.