Is Kobe the best post-up guard since MJ? Who are the top 5 post-up guards all-time?

[Handlez]

Yes.

[sikma42]

If Kobe was on a different team (he played on squads where he wasn’t able to post up due to Shaq/Bynum) I think this skill would have made him much more efficient.


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[MarcusBrody]

And he did it while trying to keep Shaq happy. Not easy.

Not for the era the OP is talking about. Shaq had been gone for a few years then - and that probably helped Kobe hit is all around peak.

[SeattleJazzFan]

Bonzi Wells and Sam Cassell

came here to say bonzi. other guards just couldn't handle him.

[Petergrifindor]

Watch on YouTube

[MarcusBrody]

I think Kobe is the best post up guard since MJ, but it depends a bit on whether you mean "best guard who posted up a lot" or "best guard in the post". If it's the latter, I think that DeRozan has a legit case (and assuming he's a SG, not a SF). He's been doing it for years in a league that isn't friendly to postups and scoring at a higher rate than Kobe did from the post.

Not a top 5 all time guy, but of recent folks Kris Middleton (again if he's a SG) worked effectively in the post.

I also think the stats highlighted really explain a lot of the difference in opinion on Kobe and where to rank him.

I'd like to see the minutes/position cut offs for being included in the percentiles, but basically we can see that Kobe is very good to great from almost every scoring situation. But not really Amazing with a capital A in any of them (maybe postups as we're talking about here, he's certainly amazing for a guard, but there aren't extra points for that). And we can see that his two most frequent possession types - Isolation and PnR ball handlers - are actually where points per possession are lowest. They're only above MISC and handoffs (which is less than one possession a game on average). So people who watch players and think "How many players could have done what he did there?" rank Kobe super highly. There aren't many who could score as well in as many ways, and particularly not many who could score in the very visible 1v1 and dribble drive situations Kobe thrived in and where a majority of his shots came from.

On the other hand, there's an impact focused set of fans look and say "he had amazing skills, but outcomes would have been better if he shifted his usage". There are definitely years where I don't think the stats support that - in 04/05 he had the best offensive on/off in the league and in 08/09 and 09/10 he was in the 99/98th percentiles. But there also a lot of years where he looks like a very good to excellent offensive player, not a GOAT offensive player. But his profile is less consistent than other players like LeBron, Steph, and Jokic (I only have this data for the last 21 seasons) where in their primes, the way they boosted the points their team was scoring more than anyone (or just about anyone in the league) year after year after year.

Kobe was very, very good in this regard, so it only comes up when talking about who are top players ever.

[Optms]

I’m trying to think of other good post up guards.

Does Paul Piece count? He was kinda SG/SF.

Off the top of my head:
Vernon Maxwell
Mitch Richmond
Clyde Drexler

He was a SF. Always.

Too slow for the guards back then.

[Primedeion]

Wow. A pro Kobe post on RealGm. You don't see that everyday.

[chudak]

Mitch Ritchmond during Kings years?

[DaPessimist]

Kobe
Penny
Wade
Luka
???

[mastermixer]

I’m trying to think of other good post up guards.

Does Paul Piece count? He was kinda SG/SF.

Off the top of my head:
Vernon Maxwell
Mitch Richmond
Clyde Drexler

He was a SF. Always.

Too slow for the guards back then.

[theforumblue]

If Kobe was on a different team (he played on squads where he wasn’t able to post up due to Shaq/Bynum) I think this skill would have made him much more efficient.


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he had plenty of chances. game he played is the one he wanted to play.

[FrodoBaggins]

Wow. A pro Kobe post on RealGm. You don't see that everyday.

You made some convincing/strong arguments for Kobe in the Player Comparison board recently. What Bryant accomplished in the late 2000s was truly impressive.

[FrodoBaggins]

I don't have playoffs Synergy data on hand, but Kobe's 3-16 feet FG% went up in the postseason from 2008-2011 in both volume and efficiency:

Regular season [319 games]:
(3-10ft): 48.3% FG; 13.2% of FGAs
(10-16ft): 47.5% FG; 18.0% of FGAs
Combined: 47.84% FG on 31.2% of FGAs/6.46 FGAs/game

Playoffs [77 games]:
(3-10ft): 51.8% FG; 13.0% of FGAs
(10-16ft): 47.2% FG; 19.3% of FGAs
Combined: 49.05% FG on 32.3% of FGAs/7.07 FGAs/game

Consider that the 3-16 feet league average from 2008-2011 was:

2008: (3-10): 40.8% FG; (10-16): 39.1% FG
2009: (3-10): 41.2% FG; (10-16): 39.5% FG
2010: (3-10): 42.1% FG; (10-16): 40.0% FG
2011: (3-10): 39.2% FG; (10-16): 39.8% FG
Combined: (3-10): 40.825% FG; (10-16): 39.6% FG

RELATIVE FG% Regular season:
(3-10ft): 118.3 FG+
(10-16ft): 120.0 FG+

RELATIVE FG% Playoffs:
(3-10ft): 127.0 FG+
(10-16ft): 119.2 FG+

League averages for last season (2024-25) were 46.1% (3-10) and 44.3% (10-16). Relatively speaking, here's how Kobe's number would look when adjusted:

2024-25 adjusted FG% Regular season:
(3-10ft): 54.54% FG
(10-16ft): 53.16% FG

2024-25 adjusted FG% Playoffs:
(3-10ft): 58.55% FG
(10-16ft): 52.81% FG

I think those numbers are 100% realistic, considering Luka, Brunson, Jokic, KD, etc have done similar. After all, 2008-2011 Kobe was doing those numbers while playing with poor spacing compared to today, and multiple post-up bigs occupying the paint themselves.

[Primedeion]

Wow. A pro Kobe post on RealGm. You don't see that everyday.

You made some convincing/strong arguments for Kobe in the Player Comparison board recently. What Bryant accomplished in the late 2000s was truly impressive.

Appreciate it, man. 2009 in particular is very impressive. He anchored the #1 offense in the league (via cleaningtheglass.com), was far and away the best player on a 66-win, +9.0 full-strength SRS title team that grades out as a top-15 team of all time by advanced team metrics, posted one of the best postseason runs in history, and delivered one of the best Finals performances ever against one of the best defenses ever. He also anchored the second most dominant trio of the post-Jordan era (Kobe/Pau/Odom posted a +17.2 net rating across the regular season and playoffs), was a clear positive on defense (you could even argue he was the second-best rim-protecting shooting guard in the league), had a pristine skill set, and led the best passing team in the league (IIRC, they ranked #1 in Ben Taylor’s team passing metric).

He should’ve finished higher than #12 on the Peak Projects list—but that’s the PC Board for you.

[Maxthirty]

I haven’t looked at any #s but I would imagine Luka is right there with Kobe.

If I’m the opposition I’m more afraid of Luka with the ball in the post - as opposed to Kobe.

[prophet_of_rage]

Andre Miller had an awesome post up game.

Thank you. Andre Miller laid it up on everybody.

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[TheHartBreakKid]

Obviously not top 5, but I want to give a shout out to Shaun Livingston

[JonFromVA]

Never going to convince me that a 1.0 ppp is something to brag about in any era since the 70's unless it's the only shot available.

[FrodoBaggins]

Never going to convince me that a 1.0 ppp is something to brag about in any era since the 70's unless it's the only shot available.

Context. You have to separate half-court and transition, as well as half-court plays and ORB putbacks. The average half-court play was only worth 0.978 ppp in 2024-25. It was 0.889 ppp in 2007-08; PHX was #1 with 0.987 ppp. So, Kobe's post-up plays (which are largely self-created) were comfortably more efficient than an average half-court play from the best offense in the NBA.

FYI Prime Shaq was 0.97 ppp in the post per Dipper 13's tracking.