Was this a travel? (Wemby step-through)

[Hoop Hunter]

The 1st was legal. The 2nd one, I would have called a travel. JMO It just looks like cheating

[edxtan]

For the first play, I think it's barely a travel because there's a moment where both feet are off the ground at the same time, so that would constitute a jump, rather than a pivot, making it a travel.

Section XIII—Traveling
b. 3. A player who comes to a stop on step one when both feet are on the floor or touch the floor simultaneously may pivot using either foot as his pivot. If he jumps with both feet he must release the ball before either foot touches the floor.

[Mephariel]

Not travel. Looks legal to me. People just think everything is a travel these days. Like what Giannis is doing is legit clean but people still say travel.

[Ryoga Hibiki]

Clean step-throughs/up-and-unders were done off two feet in the leagues I played in. Kevin McHale-style off two feet; those wouldn't be called. The one-foot step-through nonsense from a deadstop established pivot would be called 99% of the time.

it was never a travel. Just some refs are not able to call it properly, at lower levels.

Watch on YouTube

you can even find some proto Eurosteps being called a travel, in the 70s.

There is a big difference between your clip and Wemby's.

Wemby stops his movement, considers shooting the ball, as both feet are flat on the ground, and then he opts to take two steps.

it's the same. pivot, than you move the other foot a few times, lift the pivot, shoot

[og15]

Clean step-throughs/up-and-unders were done off two feet in the leagues I played in. Kevin McHale-style off two feet; those wouldn't be called. The one-foot step-through nonsense from a deadstop established pivot would be called 99% of the time.

it was never a travel. Just some refs are not able to call it properly, at lower levels.

Watch on YouTube

you can even find some proto Eurosteps being called a travel, in the 70s.

There is a big difference between your clip and Wemby's.

Wemby stops his movement, considers shooting the ball, as both feet are flat on the ground, and then he opts to take two steps.

I don't think the rule book makes any distinction between how long before the player steps with the non pivot foot. We as players might, but I don't think that would necessarily be a "rule", just how we feel.

For example:

Watch on YouTube

;pp=ygUSa29iZSByZXZlcnNlIHBpdm90

Watch on YouTube

;pp=ygUSa29iZSByZXZlcnNlIHBpdm90

Kobe stops and pump fakes ("thinks about shooting") then reverse pivots and shoots. I know we can nitpick about how the step looks, etc


Here's the Candace vs KG argument where both are right in their own way, but Candace is right technically rand by the actual rules, Candace and KG is correct in that this is his experience:

Watch on YouTube

;pp=ygUbY2FuZGFjZSBwYXJrZXIgc3RlcCB0aHJvdWdo

[bonita_the_frog]

Kobe's reverse pivot is a zillion times more entertaining than Wemby's step-through, Kobe has the most entertaining feet of the 21st Century.

[theforumblue]

if you are over 21, just assume that whatever you think is travel/carry is not travel/carry.

[zimpy27]

You can lift pivot, you can't put it back down before the ball leaves your hands.

That's the whole rule. Just remember that and everything else will be easy to understand.

[BernteB]

first one is legal, always has, always will (if not, then every 1-2-layup continuation would be illegal), 2nd was illegal, because he traveled before he did the actual step through.

[theforumblue]

pivot foot could always come off the ground, otherwise players couldn't jump after coming to a stop. that's going back decades. the change in how it's reffed (regardless of how long it was in the record books or how many 80s/90s video clips you find where it's not called as travel) is that it used to be "you have to jump off both feet" meaning both feet had to be off the ground when you raise the pivot.

rules on paper didnt change. way it's being taught and how the refs GENERALLY treated it changed. and people who didnt even live through this stuff years past and acting like they know how things were called back in the day are just being typical young people i guess.

[og15]

Kobe's reverse pivot is a zillion times more entertaining than Wemby's step-through, Kobe has the most entertaining feet of the 21st Century.

Good to know, lol

if you are over 21, just assume that whatever you think is travel/carry is not travel/carry.

Over 21 might be a little young. A 22 year old was born in 2003, they would have been playing highschool basketball from like 2017-2020, it would be very odd for them to not already be in the know about all this (though I guess highschool refs are some of the worst, so anything could be called there, and I just realized that I'm assuming people played highschool basketball which many might not have)

This is actually partially the NBA's fault for inconsistent rule application, but we also have to accept that innovation happens, and sometimes things that are different are just called travel. Like a Euro step, where in the rule did it say that your pivot and non pivot foot steps must be in a straight-ish line....nowhere, but there were refs in the past who would call travel because it looked different, not because it technically broke any rule.

It's part of sports though, things of course change and are updated, not always for the better, but that's a different discussion.

[CP War Hawks]

I must be getting old because they called that a travel at every level I played at. NBA rules, though.

i feel you on this.

i remember so many occasions, where refs called travels that were 100% not travels tho. IDK where you played but i played youth up to semi pro level (3rd highest league) in gerrmany. And most travel calls over here come from catching the ball and starting to dribble. 80% of the refs in germany were just guessing and made travel calls, just to make calls at my time.

When it comes to the two clips i can tell you these two would 100% be called travels during my time in germany. But that doesnt neccessarily mean they were.

First clip definitley is not a travel as per NBA rulebook. Second one looks like a blatant travel to me. But its not as easy to tell anymore. I feel like refs went so liberal with that rule, that its just not as black and white anymore at this point.

Just playing pick up during the 00s, 99 percent of the time a guys left foot was his pivot, so anytime they pick it up for any reason that's a travel. Actually they would need to plant it and jump off it as a legal move, that's how I was hardwired to play it.

[JujitsuFlip]

He moved his pivot with the action of taking the first step which you can't do. Everything else was okay but the pivot foot has to stay consistent and on the ground all times.

Last i chicked everyone jumps on jumpers lol

If they pivot foot had to stay glued to the floor, jumpers would be nullified after a pivot foot was established.

[Bornstellar]

He takes one long stride after he planted his pivot foot in both clips. Not a travel. He's just inhuman

[vagelis]

You can lift pivot, you can't put it back down before the ball leaves your hands.

That's the whole rule. Just remember that and everything else will be easy to understand.

This is the way they treat it now in NBA.

In the past this was a travel in Europe.
I don't follow recently the european basketball to see if this is called as a travel.
Could anyone please inform me if this is called a travel in Euroleague right now?

I don't remember anyone to try it in the past, to lift the pivot if not jumping for a shoot.
I see it a travel because this was the rule when I was playing.
You are allowed to lift pivot only in order to shoot ,not in order to take another step

[zimpy27]

You can lift pivot, you can't put it back down before the ball leaves your hands.

That's the whole rule. Just remember that and everything else will be easy to understand.

This is the way they treat it now in NBA.

In the past this was a travel in Europe.
I don't follow recently the european basketball to see of this is called as a travel.
Could anyone please inform me if this is called s travel in Euroleague right now?

I don't remember anyone to try it in the past, to lift the pivot if not jumping for a shoot.
I see it a travel because this was the rule when I was playing.
You are allowed to lift pivot only in order to shoot ,not in order to take another step

It's also the rule in FIBA and all basketball. It's not an NBA rule.

Problem is that I think many people just had poor quality refs in various leagues they played in growing up. Most of these refs are just kids and they get trained by people who could very well be wrong to begin with.

The rule has always been that you can lift pivot foot to pass or shoot before putting pivot foot back down.

[vagelis]

You can lift pivot, you can't put it back down before the ball leaves your hands.

That's the whole rule. Just remember that and everything else will be easy to understand.

This is the way they treat it now in NBA.

In the past this was a travel in Europe.
I don't follow recently the european basketball to see if this is called as a travel.
Could anyone please inform me if this is called a travel in Euroleague right now?

I don't remember anyone to try it in the past, to lift the pivot if not jumping for a shoot.
I see it a travel because this was the rule when I was playing.
You are allowed to lift pivot only in order to shoot ,not in order to take another step

It's also the rule in FIBA and all basketball. It's not an NBA rule.

Problem is that I think many people just had poor quality refs in various leagues they played in growing up. Most of these refs are just kids and they get trained by people who could very well be wrong to begin with.

The rule has always been that you can lift pivot foot to pass or shoot before putting pivot foot back down.

Maybe you are right but I don't remember even the NBA players back then to lift pivot.
I do not remember Jordan or Pippen or Barkley to use this move back then.

I see also that only a part of the current players lift pivot.
There are players that not do it as if they think it is a travel.

It is a big andvantage to be allowed to take another step.
The defender cannot guard anybody if he is allowed to take another step like this

[og15]

This is what some people might be thinking of when considering this a travel:

Watch on YouTube

;pp=ygUPRmliYSBwaXZvdCBmb290

In this play, the player stops with a jump step, then takes a step, not even just with one foot, but both feet.

This is the way they treat it now in NBA.

In the past this was a travel in Europe.
I don't follow recently the european basketball to see if this is called as a travel.
Could anyone please inform me if this is called a travel in Euroleague right now?

I don't remember anyone to try it in the past, to lift the pivot if not jumping for a shoot.
I see it a travel because this was the rule when I was playing.
You are allowed to lift pivot only in order to shoot ,not in order to take another step

It's also the rule in FIBA and all basketball. It's not an NBA rule.

Problem is that I think many people just had poor quality refs in various leagues they played in growing up. Most of these refs are just kids and they get trained by people who could very well be wrong to begin with.

The rule has always been that you can lift pivot foot to pass or shoot before putting pivot foot back down.

Maybe you are right but I don't remember even the NBA players back then to lift pivot.
I do not remember Jordan or Pippen or Barkley to use this move back then.

I see also that only a part of the current players lift pivot.
There are players that not do it as if they think it is a travel.

It is a big andvantage to be allowed to take another step.
The defender cannot guard anybody if he is allowed to take another step like this

Players did not routinely use this as many of them thought it would be called a travel.

Here's a good summary video:
https://youtu.be/qcHVhe9aYoE?si=kJBCdgX0BW2EzTOo

2:08 shows a clip that was in a past FIBA rules explanation video, I think from like mid 2000's in which they say that a step through is legal.

[DwayneSchintzus]

disclaimer - i am old.

that said, i always thought you had to jump off 2 in that situation for it to be legal. but so many people say that its legal that i feel like i'm wrong.

[Thaddy]

I must be getting old because they called that a travel at every level I played at. NBA rules, though.

I'm gonna assume your playing career stopped at high school which has a different set of rules than college or the NBA.

The rules should be the same. Why is this even a thing?