What would you say was the greatest defensive season by a perimeter player?

[EmpireFalls]

03-04 Artest or 09-10 Gerald ‘Crash’ Wallace

is that the season before malice in the palace? if so that season and then the games leading up to malice, i thought he was incredible. damn shame, reggie might have a ring rn .

I admittedly have a bias for the bulkier forward types who can guard all the way from 94 feet to protecting their own rim as well. Not to say that there haven’t been AMAZING guard defense seasons at the POA, just that I think what Artest, Pippen, and Wallace did, this havoc defense, truly guarding every action from POA to hedging the bigs to post defense to rotations and rim protection… they did it all. It was truly incredible. Pre-Malice Artest, equipped with the handchecking rules, was as close to a defensive nightmare as I’ve ever seen with my own eyes.

[dhsilv2]

Tony Allen 12-13

To me he would have been the best perimeter defensive player ever if :

- He was more two-way (easier to make higher defenseive impact when you're more focused on one side of the court)
- Played more minutes (he averaged over 30mpg only once)

Apart from that, I've never been as impressed by a perimeter defender as he is.

(He can defend equally well against Kobe, LeBron, or KD)

This is just a bad way to think. It's true that it's easier, but why does that matter? It's like saying some elite offensive player's offense isn't as great because they slack off more on defense. Of course they are. And that's ok in both cases. A player's job is to maximize their value and for a lot of guys they really focus on one side of the court. And I'll go further, some guys it's even a specialized area of that side.

Jrue keeps coming up. Awesome point of attack defender, easily in the discussion for the best of the last 5 or so years. But as an off ball defender his size somewhat limits him there.

[dhsilv2]

1995 Pippen was a demon on defense.

Tony Allen was elite though. 12-13.
Caruso is underrated in these convos. I think he's one of the best we've ever seen.

What Caruso can do in THIS era is mind boggling at times. Only off point I'd make is his value just goes to insane levels when he's with another strong wing defender.

[KayDee35]

03-04 Artest or 09-10 Gerald ‘Crash’ Wallace

is that the season before malice in the palace? if so that season and then the games leading up to malice, i thought he was incredible. damn shame, reggie might have a ring rn .

well it is risky business to rely on the nutjobs

Pacers forgot to hire Phil Jackson. Oops

[mojomarc]

The fact that Larry Bird's career defensive rating is higher than Scottie Pippin's career defensive rating tells you all you need to know about this statistic. Based on a pure eyeball test after watching the league for decades I'll agree that Pippin was very good, but so were Bobby Jones, Gar Heard and (when he was younger) Julius Erving. And among current players, the best perimeter defender is Jrue Holiday. Kawhi used to be the best, but injuries have slowed him down.

It should be used with context.

You could have a good defensive rating if you are an average defensive player, but just happen to play with a bunch of elite defenders.

You think Bird is ever going to lead the league in Defensive Rating with the defensive talent Pippen had around him in 1995?

I think this illustrates the problem with defensive statistics, but maybe in the opposite way you are thinking. Bird was an exceptional team defender. He wasn't a lock-down individual defender unless he was massively motivated (and that was pretty rare tbh) but I don't think I've ever seen anyone who was better at reading the game defensively and making key defensive plays off the ball. He averaged 1.7 steals per game over his career (even though he rarely just stripped the ball from people). he was instead playing a very smart free safety in a way that really disrupted opposition teams' entire schemes. Not sure what the best stats are to really examine this to measure his impact, but I would be willing to bet if someone has a good dataset of Bird on the floor with everyone else healthy vs. Bird off the floor with everyone else healthy would be pretty significant. He after all led the team in his prime in DWS on teams with more acclaimed individual defensive players like Dennis Johnson and Robert Parish.

[Lockdown504090]

is that the season before malice in the palace? if so that season and then the games leading up to malice, i thought he was incredible. damn shame, reggie might have a ring rn .

well it is risky business to rely on the nutjobs

Pacers forgot to hire Phil Jackson. Oops

damn shame, too many hood dudes on one team. tinsley jack, harrington, artest. I wish guys were more aware of mental health back then. They all seem a lot better now, and they all talk about how disapointed they are about letting reggie down.

[SkyBill40]

'21-22 Marcus Smart

GP was on a warpath in the mid-90's.

Both were not even the best defenders on their teams.

Who on the Sonics was the better defender than Payton? Nate McMillan was solid but he wasn't the defender Payton was. No one else comes close.

[ryan in Maine]

'21-22 Marcus Smart

GP was on a warpath in the mid-90's.

Both were not even the best defenders on their teams.

I was joking about Smart but serious about GP. His run from like '96-98 was an inspiration for me as a defense minded kid. That's literally when steals became cool to me.

[Ritzo]

2011 Shawn Marion, 2017 Kawhi and 2021 Jrue Holiday were my favorites

[dhsilv2]

'21-22 Marcus Smart

GP was on a warpath in the mid-90's.

Both were not even the best defenders on their teams.

I was joking about Smart but serious about GP. His run from like '96-98 was an inspiration for me as a defense minded kid. That's literally when steals became cool to me.

Not even a knock on GP...but I'm not sure he was the best defensive point guard on the Sonics those years. But he certainly had the best "swag" factor on defense.

[kcktiny]

Tony Allen is the best 1v1 guy ever IMO. I’ve never seen someone shut down all time great superstars the way Allen has.

What Caruso can do in THIS era is mind boggling at times.

Allen/Caruso were/are incredible defenders. But each played 2000+ minutes in a season just once in their careers.

Greatest perimeter defender was Alvin Robertson. Great shot defender that also lead the league in steals three times. Grabbed 240+ steals in a season four times, 200+ steals six times, set the league record of 301 steals in 1985-86.

How impressive is that? There has not been an NBA player grab 200+ steals in a season in over 3 decades (last time was Mookie Blaylock with 203 in 1992-93).

https://www.youtube.com/shorts/3uMsFBvdyI0

https://www.youtube.com/shorts/_yWZ5jAdORw

[Curmudgeon]

The fact that Larry Bird's career defensive rating is higher than Scottie Pippin's career defensive rating tells you all you need to know about this statistic. Based on a pure eyeball test after watching the league for decades I'll agree that Pippin was very good, but so were Bobby Jones, Gar Heard and (when he was younger) Julius Erving. And among current players, the best perimeter defender is Jrue Holiday. Kawhi used to be the best, but injuries have slowed him down.

It should be used with context.

You could have a good defensive rating if you are an average defensive player, but just happen to play with a bunch of elite defenders.

You think Bird is ever going to lead the league in Defensive Rating with the defensive talent Pippen had around him in 1995?

I think this illustrates the problem with defensive statistics, but maybe in the opposite way you are thinking. Bird was an exceptional team defender. He wasn't a lock-down individual defender unless he was massively motivated (and that was pretty rare tbh) but I don't think I've ever seen anyone who was better at reading the game defensively and making key defensive plays off the ball. He averaged 1.7 steals per game over his career (even though he rarely just stripped the ball from people). he was instead playing a very smart free safety in a way that really disrupted opposition teams' entire schemes. Not sure what the best stats are to really examine this to measure his impact, but I would be willing to bet if someone has a good dataset of Bird on the floor with everyone else healthy vs. Bird off the floor with everyone else healthy would be pretty significant. He after all led the team in his prime in DWS on teams with more acclaimed individual defensive players like Dennis Johnson and Robert Parish.

The best defenders on those Celtics teams were Dennis Johnson and Kevin McHale. Parish was good too, but McHale was better. Bird was a smart player but could not defend quicker forwards one on one. He didn't have the lateral mobility.

I think there is too much interdependence of players on defense to come up with an individual defensive rating that really means something. Bill Russell might have been an exception had they tracked the same data when he played, but he's the only one I can think of.

[NoDopeOnSundays]

Kawhi before he started to focus on offense.

[Wile E. Coyote]

Tony Allen is the best 1v1 guy ever IMO. I’ve never seen someone shut down all time great superstars the way Allen has.

What Caruso can do in THIS era is mind boggling at times.

Allen/Caruso were/are incredible defenders. But each played 2000+ minutes in a season just once in their careers.

Greatest perimeter defender was Alvin Robertson. Great shot defender that also lead the league in steals three times. Grabbed 240+ steals in a season four times, 200+ steals six times, set the league record of 301 steals in 1985-86.

How impressive is that? There has not been an NBA player grab 200+ steals in a season in over 3 decades (last time was Mookie Blaylock with 203 in 1992-93).

I just looked his stats up. He was DPOY but was second team all-defense for some reason.

[kcktiny]

Sportswriters/broadcasters voted for the DPOY back then, NBA head coaches for the all-defensive team.

Same thing happened with Marc Gasol in 2012-13.

[zero rings]

In the 22-23 season, Alex Caruso dragged a team featuring Zach Lavine, Demar Derozan, and Nikola Vucevic to a top 5 defense.

Just putting that out there.

[Dacost]

Tony Allen
He was able to 1 on 1 top players and off the ball it was absolute Kaos at all times.

Also one if not the worst offensive player on any list.

[balrog27]

For me it's 1995 Scottie Pippen.

Had the Bulls as a #2 defense with no Horace Grant & no MJ for most of the year. Nearly averaged 3 spg and over 1 block. But to me it's his defensive metrics that impress me the most. Led the league in Defensive Rating, which is impressive considering he had little defensive help around him. Also led the league along with David Robinson in Defensive Win Shares.

I believe Pippen & Kawhi are the only perimeter defenders to ever lead the league in Defensive Rating, only difference is Kawhi had another top tier defender that year helping him in Duncan who finished #2 in Defensive Rating that year, Pippen was the only Chicago player who finished top 10 in 1995.

To pick a wing over a center for GOAT defensive season is crazy talk IMO.

[Mean_Streets]

For me it's 1995 Scottie Pippen.

Had the Bulls as a #2 defense with no Horace Grant & no MJ for most of the year. Nearly averaged 3 spg and over 1 block. But to me it's his defensive metrics that impress me the most. Led the league in Defensive Rating, which is impressive considering he had little defensive help around him. Also led the league along with David Robinson in Defensive Win Shares.

I believe Pippen & Kawhi are the only perimeter defenders to ever lead the league in Defensive Rating, only difference is Kawhi had another top tier defender that year helping him in Duncan who finished #2 in Defensive Rating that year, Pippen was the only Chicago player who finished top 10 in 1995.

To pick a wing over a center for GOAT defensive season is crazy talk IMO.

Did you read the thread title? lol

[falcolombardi]

Peak 2009 lebron or peak 2016 kawhi,kirilenko too if you count him as a wing (i dont)

Other good contenders would be peak scottie pippen in the early 90's or prime ron artest in indiana

I am less familiar with pre 90's guys