Who's higher on your All Time List: Tim Duncan or Magic

[floppymoose]

They both are amazing HoFers and won championships. I vote Magic because i think he also changed the game and image of the league.

[Lalouie]

It’s close. I might get crucified for this as a Laker fan, but I’m leaning towards Duncan due to his defense and longevity. The guy was just the ultimate building block.

Magic’s career was sadly cut short due to his HIV diagnosis. He was effectively out of the league at 31 years old. His last season before the diagnosis he still on top of the world, averaging 19-12-7 and MVP runner up.

Without the HIV diagnosis, it might be hard to argue against Magic’s case if his body held up into his 30’s.

i am disappointed, laker fan or not

magic was not only a SEMINAL player
part of his deep legacy, was the bird interaction that revived the nba. in other words magic was of historical significance

i think i can fairly say he created "showtime" so that the word has become part of the basketball lexicon

also i will say he was a true one of a kind - there simply has been no other.

i'm kinda disappointed you brought up the hiv as if that was your divining criteria. too bad

i will also say magic had a larger audience. essentially, he spread the word and thus concomitantly had a LARGER legacy

he had historical significance and a larger footprint in the game



ps...just when i thought realgm had gotten past the "who's better" quagmire(there's been a definited downturn of era comparisons. (mostly everyone's been comparing CURRENT stars to each other), then up pops this topic

[Chokic]

Tim Duncan easily. He was the offensive and defensive anchor for a dynasty much longer prime than magic and higher peak. He was selfless to a fault could have easily padded his own stats at the expense of team.

Magic was the offensive engine for lakers but he was a limited scorer and a defensive liability. His legacy is greatly boosted by his teamamtes his own charisma and nostalgia when the nba was beginning to transition into the golden era of nba his rivalry with bird that revived the general publics interest in the nba.

[bstein14]

MJ->Bird->Magic->Wilt->Lebron->Kareem->Olajuwon->Shaq->Oscar->Duncan

This is a genuinely unique take. I think might be the first top 10 list I’ve ever seen that has Bird #2 and definitely the first I’ve seen that has Wilt but NOT Russell

Are you just really high on Russell’s teammates?

Russell lead the league in rebounding 5 times.

He played 13 seasons, won 8 championships but also was a career 44% FG% and 56.1% FT% . He is a player who dominated with size and heart/hustle but isn't a player who was very skilled. He never averaged 19 PPG once in his career.

I feel like, statistically, he's the major outlier of any top 10 lists. Like if you had a time machine and put Ben Wallace or Dennis Rodman back in the 1950s and 60s people would think they were top 10 all-time. Both those guys played super hard and could rebound the heck out of the ball just like Russell.

[druggas]

Without Magic and Bird, the NBA might have folded. Think about having the weight of the NBA on your shoulders.

[celtxman]

Two all time top 10 players. I went with Magic, but you could argue for either one. A real flip of the coin, and one of the better polls.

[NYPiston]

Maybe it's my nostalgia kicking in but Magic was simply.... Magic. Duncan was the better overall player in terms of impact all over the court and Magic had a better supporting cast but the orchestrator of Showtime and arguably some of the best teams of all time gets the nod for me, he was spectacular and played a big part in ushering in the modern NBA era which exploded on the national scene in the 80s culturally and in terms of popularity.

[Anderson Hunt]

Magic is the greatest on-court leader of all-time. Unfortunately, there is no "advanced" metric to measure this valuable intangible.

Even though I worshipped Jordan as a teenager with wall-to-wall posters in my room, Magic was the best basketball player I've ever witnessed in real-time (I didn't see Chamberlain, Russell, prime Kareem, Moses Malone, Baylor, West, Robertson, Dr. J, etc in real-time, so I don't comment on them).

I have Magic number one because, although he played with great players, I believe he made players better. I believe his leadership and unselfish play-style created fertile ground for winning in every environment.

He is the only player I can think of that would make me look good if he was my teammate. If Magic was my teammate, he'd empower me to be better. That type of leadership is immeasurable.

[hauntedcomputer]

His longevity is another major deal-breaker. Duncan was the backbone of the greatest 20-year dynasty in NBA history.

What if I told you the Celtics won 13 rings in 19 seasons?

[Castle Black]

His longevity is another major deal-breaker. Duncan was the backbone of the greatest 20-year dynasty in NBA history.

What if I told you the Celtics won 13 rings in 19 seasons?

Okay, modern* NBA history.

[dhsilv2]

I'm go with Magic, he has the highest win percentage in nba history, man went to 9 nba finals in 12 seasons. He brought freaking vlade divac to the finals vs MJ. I don't think Jordan would have a perfect finals record if he had to face those celtics, lakers, sixers, piston teams in the 80s, oh wait, jordan did play most of the 80s as well haha.

That might be the oddest way to argue for Magic I've seen.

In the playoffs that year MJ took Bill Cartwright who isn't remotely in the same stratosphere as Vlade as a player.

PER 11.1 vs 17.5
WS/48 .110 vs .137
BPM -1.2 vs 4.3

Vlade might be outside your top 100 all time nba players, but he's most certainly a top 150 guy. A defensive anchor with great hands (which paired perfectly with Magic's passing), a good jumper, and outstanding passing for a big man. Even as a second year guy playing 28 minutes a game in the regular season Vlade was averaging 1.5 blocks, 1.3 steals, 1.1 assists with 11.2 points and 8.1 rebounds. If he did that for 40 a game that's 15-11 with 2 blocks and 2 steals a game.

[dhsilv2]

MJ->Bird->Magic->Wilt->Lebron->Kareem->Olajuwon->Shaq->Oscar->Duncan

This is a genuinely unique take. I think might be the first top 10 list I’ve ever seen that has Bird #2 and definitely the first I’ve seen that has Wilt but NOT Russell

Are you just really high on Russell’s teammates?

Russell lead the league in rebounding 5 times.

He played 13 seasons, won 8 championships but also was a career 44% FG% and 56.1% FT% . He is a player who dominated with size and heart/hustle but isn't a player who was very skilled. He never averaged 19 PPG once in his career.

I feel like, statistically, he's the major outlier of any top 10 lists. Like if you had a time machine and put Ben Wallace or Dennis Rodman back in the 1950s and 60s people would think they were top 10 all-time. Both those guys played super hard and could rebound the heck out of the ball just like Russell.

Russell is a vastly better scorer and even by today's standards was a very good passer. Rodman and Ben are neither of those things. He's also an all time rim protector which Rodman isn't remotely close to being.

[dhsilv2]

If you'd asked me 7-8 years ago I'd have let the "rangz" culture...the old more sane one, win out. Knowing Magic went to more finals than Duncan. I'd have leaned on the importance of passing and being a GOAT level offensive player. I also at the time had a much higher view on Parker. While Magic was certainly a great leader and certainly on the court...to me only Russell seems to have a case to rival Duncan as a total leader. While I'd waffle on greater peak...I see a case for either there I do think there's a case that Magic's first 12 years top Duncan's. But Duncan kept going and Magic sadly didn't and I see no way to offset that longevity gap.

[cupcakesnake]

I'm go with Magic, he has the highest win percentage in nba history, man went to 9 nba finals in 12 seasons. He brought freaking vlade divac to the finals vs MJ. I don't think Jordan would have a perfect finals record if he had to face those celtics, lakers, sixers, piston teams in the 80s, oh wait, jordan did play most of the 80s as well haha.

Magic (or Lebron) going to the finals a ton, has a lot to do with opponent quality. Your statement understands that when you mention how Jordan's finals record wouldn't be perfect if he had better finals opponents (and acknowledging many of those opponents knocked him out in earlier rounds).

Magic played in a very weak West. All the other powerhouses you mentioned were in the East in the 80s. You can go through the playoff opponents in the West and realize it wasn't exactly a murderers' row. Solid teams, just not a lot of big contenders. There were brief moments of Houston putting together teams, but they'd quickly crumble (Moses going to Phili, Ralph Sampson getting injured). Hard to look at the roster in Seattle, Phoenix, San Antonio, and Denver and feel like Magic was slaying dragons out there.

Magic/Kareem Lakers are obviously an all-time team and would win multiple championships had they been in the East too, but it would have been a way tougher road to the finals, with Bird's Celtics, Moses/Doc Sixers, Bad Boy Pistons, and some forgotten elite Milwaukee Bucks teams.

[Mirotic12]

Definitely Magic over Duncan for me.

[Bornstellar]

Tim Duncan, imo. Magic is one of the GOATs though so there really is no wrong answer.

[tsherkin]

Ooof, tough one. They're close. 5 titles each, loads of Finals appearances, bunch of MVPs each. Longevity is on Duncan's side, but he sort of Kareem's his way forward in that way, reducing minutes and offloading offensive burden to perimeter guys, so I don't know how much I want to credit those seasons in terms of jockeying for all-time position with a 3-time MVP.

At baseline, though, I can see the arguments for either guy. Both were incredible. Very different in their value. Duncan's offense was more valuable because of the era in which he played, and then the Spurs figured out that they needed to lean on his D and rebounding while initiating from the perimeter more.

I dunno. Can't go wrong picking either guy. Magic's my favorite player all-time, so I'll go with him, but it could easily be Duncan, who was also incredible.

[Mirotic12]

I'm go with Magic, he has the highest win percentage in nba history, man went to 9 nba finals in 12 seasons. He brought freaking vlade divac to the finals vs MJ. I don't think Jordan would have a perfect finals record if he had to face those celtics, lakers, sixers, piston teams in the 80s, oh wait, jordan did play most of the 80s as well haha.

What was wrong with Divac? He was a really good center on defense, and on offense, he was ahead of his time and had the total skill package.

And at that time in his career, he was also quite mobile and athletic. He was clearly better than someone like Chet Holmgren is now.

[Mirotic12]

His longevity is another major deal-breaker. Duncan was the backbone of the greatest 20-year dynasty in NBA history.

What if I told you the Celtics won 13 rings in 19 seasons?

Okay, modern* NBA history.

Lakers had 5 titles and 9 finals appearances from 1980 to 1991. If Magic didn't get HIV, they might have had more finals appearances after that.

[wemby]

What if I told you the Celtics won 13 rings in 19 seasons?

Okay, modern* NBA history.

Lakers had 5 titles and 9 finals appearances from 1980 to 1991. If Magic didn't get HIV, they might have had more finals appearances after that.

Lakers also had some of the most ridiculous talent accumulation ever on those teams, way beyond Magic. I can understand the Magic side if we're talking historical significance, he was instrumental to the NBA staying afloat and growing in a pivotal time, but if you had to pick one of them as the foundational piece of a winning team, give me Duncan and with all due respect to Magic I don't think it's all that close.