Jokic vs Olajuwon one on one, who will win?

[Peregrine01]

Jokic is a decent post defender. He struggles in space. In a one-on-one game in the post, Hakeem doesn't have much of a chance. Jokic is shooting a preposterous 80% or something in the 3-10 feet area so anytime he gets there it's automatic. Hakeem has a better chance if the ball is checked at the top of the key but the difference in scoring efficiency is just too much.

Shaq vs Jokic is a better question IMO.

[bovice]

jokic and it's not close

[dhsilv2]

I would say Hakeem in a 1v1 matchup due to his incredible post-up ability and elite defense, but in a 5v5, Jokic is obviously better offensively given his uber elite vision and shooting range.

1v1 is very different than 5v5...Kobe in my opinion beats Lebron in 1v1, but Lebron is a far better player in a 5v5 setting.

How does Kobe beat Lebron 1v1 given their size differences? I just don't see how Lebron can't bully ball Kobe to the rim every single time if winning is all he cares about. A normal friendly 1v1 perhaps they're both trying to shoot and use their "moves". But if the game matters, lebron can just walk Kobe to the rim.

Kobe is in the supreme elite tier of 1v1 basketball.

Kobe's skill level and footwork is insane and a 1v1 setting takes away some of Lebron's best attributes: transition scoring and passing. And Kobe is no slouch on D, yes Lebron has the size, but Kobe could hold his own in that department and not get bullied so easily.

I agree with everything here but that kobe could hold his own. Lebron depending on when you want to compare them might have 3-4 inches and 50 pounds of muscle on Kobe.

[Doctor MJ]

I think it's Jokic just because of the softer shooting touch.

I get the logic that Hakeem is a WAY better defender and Jokic would have a harder time guarding but in one-on-one... neither of these guys are clamping each other. Hakeem is too quick for Jokic, but Jokic isn't so slow that he's going to get blown by. He's pretty stout guarding his man. Where Jokic struggles is vertical rim protection, and that's not a thing in one-on-one. On the flipside, Jokic is a lot bigger than Hakeem.

I think they're both hitting each other up with post moves, and Hakeem simply misses more than Jokic. Hakeem will face up and get to the rim for a few easy baskets. Watching one-on-one with guys who are anywhere near this level though, it usually comes down to who misses a couple shots.

So, gotta say, my first thought was Dream here because you’re literally taking Jokic’s best skill away, but you raise good points.

Sure Hakeem will score well on Jokic, but what reason do we have to think Hakeem would stop Jokic? If it comes down to two post players where one guy is stronger and has a better touch, well, normally that guy is going to win.

Part of what I think can mislead folks here - and mislead me - is the thought about Dream being so much better on defense, because man defense is not what made Olajuwon the best defender since Russell, help defense is.

This is also what has allowed defenses to slow Jokic down: Don’t have your best defensive big guard Jokic, have someone else do that and then use the shot blocker as the secondary guy.

But in 1v1, just like there is no passing, there is no help.


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I think Dream's man defense was still pretty dang good. The man had mega quick feet, long arms on the contest, and good patience. I agree it wasn't his super power, and he wasn't some pillar of lower body strength.

I don't really see what Hakeem would be doing to stop Jokic from shambling into his position and lofting that half floater into the rim. That's a shot Jokic has routinely hit at like 60-70%. For all his post moves, Hakeem doesn't have an iso move that he knocks down at that level. Not even close.

I think Hakeem wins the beauty pageant in this matchup but loses the war. Hakeem's buckets will look so much cooler, but Jokic will waddle into his usual automatic buckets, ones that no single coverage has ever affected much.

Also, Hakeem offensive mastery was mostly about 2 things: hitting really tough fadeaways, and pumpfaking guys off their feet. Jokic doesn't jump, so the pump fakes are irrelevant. Then those tough fadeaways are more resilient than efficient. The defender doesn't matter, so it doesn't matter whether it's Jokic or Mark Eaton or Nate Thurmond (ok it might matter if it's Thurmond, lol). Hakeem is unlikely to hit those tough shots at a higher clip than Jokic hits his.

Agree with all of what you're saying including the point about Dream's man defense being fundamentally a good thing.

But to generalize your point about lower body strength: I think generally that help defenders get their superpower with quickness to go along with their length, but quickness is antithetical to lower body strength. Basically, take anyone in competition for "best defensive player ever", they won't actually be in competition for "best post man defender ever". You can't have your cake and eat it too.

[cupcakesnake]

So, gotta say, my first thought was Dream here because you’re literally taking Jokic’s best skill away, but you raise good points.

Sure Hakeem will score well on Jokic, but what reason do we have to think Hakeem would stop Jokic? If it comes down to two post players where one guy is stronger and has a better touch, well, normally that guy is going to win.

Part of what I think can mislead folks here - and mislead me - is the thought about Dream being so much better on defense, because man defense is not what made Olajuwon the best defender since Russell, help defense is.

This is also what has allowed defenses to slow Jokic down: Don’t have your best defensive big guard Jokic, have someone else do that and then use the shot blocker as the secondary guy.

But in 1v1, just like there is no passing, there is no help.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

I think Dream's man defense was still pretty dang good. The man had mega quick feet, long arms on the contest, and good patience. I agree it wasn't his super power, and he wasn't some pillar of lower body strength.

I don't really see what Hakeem would be doing to stop Jokic from shambling into his position and lofting that half floater into the rim. That's a shot Jokic has routinely hit at like 60-70%. For all his post moves, Hakeem doesn't have an iso move that he knocks down at that level. Not even close.

I think Hakeem wins the beauty pageant in this matchup but loses the war. Hakeem's buckets will look so much cooler, but Jokic will waddle into his usual automatic buckets, ones that no single coverage has ever affected much.

Also, Hakeem offensive mastery was mostly about 2 things: hitting really tough fadeaways, and pumpfaking guys off their feet. Jokic doesn't jump, so the pump fakes are irrelevant. Then those tough fadeaways are more resilient than efficient. The defender doesn't matter, so it doesn't matter whether it's Jokic or Mark Eaton or Nate Thurmond (ok it might matter if it's Thurmond, lol). Hakeem is unlikely to hit those tough shots at a higher clip than Jokic hits his.

Agree with all of what you're saying including the point about Dream's man defense being fundamentally a good thing.

But to generalize your point about lower body strength: I think generally that help defenders get their superpower with quickness to go along with their length, but quickness is antithetical to lower body strength. Basically, take anyone in competition for "best defensive player ever", they won't actually be in competition for "best post man defender ever". You can't have your cake and eat it too.

I'm into the theory. Does strong lower body strength automatically make you not light on your feet though? It checks out with some high-end DPOY examples like Victor, Hakeem, KG, Giannis. If it's a rule though, there's plenty of exceptions. Draymond Green is a brutal in the post (better there than he is on the perimeter in space). Ben Wallace's primary value was his vertical defense and his ability to recover/cover ground, but he's also famous for holding ground against Shaq. Kawhi Leonard has legendary core strength. Marc Gasol was a genius level paint protector, but also famous for locking down opponent post scorers.

I think some guys are eating their cake?

[Duke4life831]

Jokic. Especially if this was like a Time Machine hypothetical. Because the Dream would’ve never seen a big like Jokic before.

Also I think this would just get to the point of, there is no defense for an elite offense.

I think it’s pretty safe to say, Jokic is just at a level offensively where it’s not possible to effectively guard him 1 on 1.

He just has too many spots, too many moves, and too many counters from all different areas.

Just to put this into perspective. Jokic is a career 50% shooter from 10-16ft. Dirk, arguably the most dominant mid range shot from a big man ever. Had only 3 seasons where he shot at least 50% from that range. Not yes the volume is drastically different, and because of that I’d still give Dirk the edge as a mid range shooter. But that just goes to show how great Jokic is from that range as well.

The Dream has never had to defend a big that is practically a 38% shooter from 3. Elite shooting from every are in and has an elite back to the basket game on top of that. And it’s not just the shooting %s, it’s all the moves and counters Jokic has from all those areas as well.

Dont get me wrong, I totally get that the Dream is the definition of an elite two way player, he’s kind of the go to guy when you think about one. But again I just think Jokic is at the level offensively where there is just no defense to elite offense.

[Johnny Firpo]

But in pure 1v1 matchups when they actually posted each other up, as I said, Embiid came out on top.

Do we even have the stats for that, or you are basing on that single 50+ game in Philly? In which, if I remember correctly, Jokic guarded Embiid more than the opposite. And knowing that Embiid rarely played in Denver, i don't think we have a legitimate sample size either way.

[Johnny Firpo]

I think it’s pretty safe to say, Jokic is just at a level offensively where it’s not possible to effectively guard him 1 on 1.

Yes, the only defense for him is to put a bulldog guard with a low center of gravity on him, preferably with a defensive reputation, so he literally hump his back/behind with their chest and face, while constantly arm defending him (often with two hands). Yes, I'm obviously talking about Caruso, but actually, also Tucker played this role well, or should I say, the refs allowed him to play this role well.

[dhsilv2]

I think Dream's man defense was still pretty dang good. The man had mega quick feet, long arms on the contest, and good patience. I agree it wasn't his super power, and he wasn't some pillar of lower body strength.

I don't really see what Hakeem would be doing to stop Jokic from shambling into his position and lofting that half floater into the rim. That's a shot Jokic has routinely hit at like 60-70%. For all his post moves, Hakeem doesn't have an iso move that he knocks down at that level. Not even close.

I think Hakeem wins the beauty pageant in this matchup but loses the war. Hakeem's buckets will look so much cooler, but Jokic will waddle into his usual automatic buckets, ones that no single coverage has ever affected much.

Also, Hakeem offensive mastery was mostly about 2 things: hitting really tough fadeaways, and pumpfaking guys off their feet. Jokic doesn't jump, so the pump fakes are irrelevant. Then those tough fadeaways are more resilient than efficient. The defender doesn't matter, so it doesn't matter whether it's Jokic or Mark Eaton or Nate Thurmond (ok it might matter if it's Thurmond, lol). Hakeem is unlikely to hit those tough shots at a higher clip than Jokic hits his.

Agree with all of what you're saying including the point about Dream's man defense being fundamentally a good thing.

But to generalize your point about lower body strength: I think generally that help defenders get their superpower with quickness to go along with their length, but quickness is antithetical to lower body strength. Basically, take anyone in competition for "best defensive player ever", they won't actually be in competition for "best post man defender ever". You can't have your cake and eat it too.

I'm into the theory. Does strong lower body strength automatically make you not light on your feet though? It checks out with some high-end DPOY examples like Victor, Hakeem, KG, Giannis. If it's a rule though, there's plenty of exceptions. Draymond Green is a brutal in the post (better there than he is on the perimeter in space). Ben Wallace's primary value was his vertical defense and his ability to recover/cover ground, but he's also famous for holding ground against Shaq. Kawhi Leonard has legendary core strength. Marc Gasol was a genius level paint protector, but also famous for locking down opponent post scorers.

I think some guys are eating their cake?

If you're a tall guy but have "normal" human proportions. Meaning you're not all legs and I'm sure it's more nuanced than this. You can have both. Or you're a bit shorter with freaky long arms.

The problem many of these lighter and quicker guys had was they are high waisted and as a result they just can't get low. Power in the post is both leverage and strength.

This is more powerlifting focused but it's a good breakdown on just how the size of different bones in your body relative to your height can drastically change how "strong" you'll be in certain lifts. The same is true with basketball. Things as simple as your femur length relative to height and tibia can DRASTICALLY change how you're able to function in the post.

Watch on YouTube

[Johnny Firpo]

Anyway, on topic, it could go either way, like most of these one on one matchups. I think Jokic would have more advantages in a half court set, if it's full court, then obviously Hakeem. In the half court, I would lean towards Jokic.

[cupcakesnake]

Agree with all of what you're saying including the point about Dream's man defense being fundamentally a good thing.

But to generalize your point about lower body strength: I think generally that help defenders get their superpower with quickness to go along with their length, but quickness is antithetical to lower body strength. Basically, take anyone in competition for "best defensive player ever", they won't actually be in competition for "best post man defender ever". You can't have your cake and eat it too.

I'm into the theory. Does strong lower body strength automatically make you not light on your feet though? It checks out with some high-end DPOY examples like Victor, Hakeem, KG, Giannis. If it's a rule though, there's plenty of exceptions. Draymond Green is a brutal in the post (better there than he is on the perimeter in space). Ben Wallace's primary value was his vertical defense and his ability to recover/cover ground, but he's also famous for holding ground against Shaq. Kawhi Leonard has legendary core strength. Marc Gasol was a genius level paint protector, but also famous for locking down opponent post scorers.

I think some guys are eating their cake?

If you're a tall guy but have "normal" human proportions. Meaning you're not all legs and I'm sure it's more nuanced than this. You can have both. Or you're a bit shorter with freaky long arms.

The problem many of these lighter and quicker guys had was they are high waisted and as a result they just can't get low. Power in the post is both leverage and strength.

This is more powerlifting focused but it's a good breakdown on just how the size of different bones in your body relative to your height can drastically change how "strong" you'll be in certain lifts. The same is true with basketball. Things as simple as your femur length relative to height and tibia can DRASTICALLY change how you're able to function in the post.

Watch on YouTube

Interesting.
I definitely see this with some players. Giannis comes to mind. Everyone sees how incredible he can be reacting and covering ground, and assume he can guard anyone. Then you look at his defensive stance, with those long legs spread out like a moose on ice so he can get low, and he just can't move as well from that position.

KG looked pretty natural guarding the perimeter, but he also had much more flexible hips than Giannis. Neither of them were quite elite guarding the post, since neither has particuarly good lower body strength.

Marc Gasol is the confusing one for me. Maybe he had sneaky shorter leg proportions in a way that makes sense with your video. The guy was clearly strong enough to guard anyone, but also seemed like he barely bended his body and yet could cover ground as well as almost anyone.

[Birth of the Cool]

If you're scoring 2s and 1s Jokic has a huge advantage having a better 3 ball. Olajuwon has to guard him to the 3pt line and the threat of the 3 ball can have him closer or biting out there. If you're just playing 1s then I give Olajuwon the sight edge.

Yes Olajuwon has the better and larger arsenal of offensive moves but Jokic is more efficient and with his size and strengh advantage just needs to get to his spots.

[NoDopeOnSundays]

Olajuwon is built for 1 on 1 basketball, Jokic's brilliance is built from 5 on 5.


Olajuwon wins the majority of the games between them.

[dhsilv2]

I'm into the theory. Does strong lower body strength automatically make you not light on your feet though? It checks out with some high-end DPOY examples like Victor, Hakeem, KG, Giannis. If it's a rule though, there's plenty of exceptions. Draymond Green is a brutal in the post (better there than he is on the perimeter in space). Ben Wallace's primary value was his vertical defense and his ability to recover/cover ground, but he's also famous for holding ground against Shaq. Kawhi Leonard has legendary core strength. Marc Gasol was a genius level paint protector, but also famous for locking down opponent post scorers.

I think some guys are eating their cake?

If you're a tall guy but have "normal" human proportions. Meaning you're not all legs and I'm sure it's more nuanced than this. You can have both. Or you're a bit shorter with freaky long arms.

The problem many of these lighter and quicker guys had was they are high waisted and as a result they just can't get low. Power in the post is both leverage and strength.

This is more powerlifting focused but it's a good breakdown on just how the size of different bones in your body relative to your height can drastically change how "strong" you'll be in certain lifts. The same is true with basketball. Things as simple as your femur length relative to height and tibia can DRASTICALLY change how you're able to function in the post.

Watch on YouTube

Interesting.
I definitely see this with some players. Giannis comes to mind. Everyone sees how incredible he can be reacting and covering ground, and assume he can guard anyone. Then you look at his defensive stance, with those long legs spread out like a moose on ice so he can get low, and he just can't move as well from that position.

KG looked pretty natural guarding the perimeter, but he also had much more flexible hips than Giannis. Neither of them were quite elite guarding the post, since neither has particuarly good lower body strength.

Marc Gasol is the confusing one for me. Maybe he had sneaky shorter leg proportions in a way that makes sense with your video. The guy was clearly strong enough to guard anyone, but also seemed like he barely bended his body and yet could cover ground as well as almost anyone.

I'm no expert but look at Giannis a bit more closely.



He's knees are "low", in other words it's not just he has long legs. But his femur is super long. So now go back to the video talking about squatting and showing Lebron vs someone more natural. Now Lebron isn't THAT wildly off vs Giannis who seems way more odd. But if you want to get low, into that squat stance, you need not short legs but shorter femurs.



Now Marc a few things. First, he looks to be in terms of legs about 50:50...give or take. Similarly he's about 50% upper and 50% lower...maybe 45:55 with a leg bias. Giannis above is at least 60% legs if not more. So it's not just the legs but the bones in the legs.

Anyone better with this stuff, I'd love to see chime in. But to me Marc looks very "balanced" and "normal" which is odd for guys over 6'6.

[gmoney411]

jokic and it's not close

Did you watch Hakeem play? I find it hard to believe that anybody that actually was watching during Hakeem's career would think it's not even close.

[Doctor MJ]

Agree with all of what you're saying including the point about Dream's man defense being fundamentally a good thing.

But to generalize your point about lower body strength: I think generally that help defenders get their superpower with quickness to go along with their length, but quickness is antithetical to lower body strength. Basically, take anyone in competition for "best defensive player ever", they won't actually be in competition for "best post man defender ever". You can't have your cake and eat it too.

I'm into the theory. Does strong lower body strength automatically make you not light on your feet though? It checks out with some high-end DPOY examples like Victor, Hakeem, KG, Giannis. If it's a rule though, there's plenty of exceptions. Draymond Green is a brutal in the post (better there than he is on the perimeter in space). Ben Wallace's primary value was his vertical defense and his ability to recover/cover ground, but he's also famous for holding ground against Shaq. Kawhi Leonard has legendary core strength. Marc Gasol was a genius level paint protector, but also famous for locking down opponent post scorers.

I think some guys are eating their cake?

If you're a tall guy but have "normal" human proportions. Meaning you're not all legs and I'm sure it's more nuanced than this. You can have both. Or you're a bit shorter with freaky long arms.

The problem many of these lighter and quicker guys had was they are high waisted and as a result they just can't get low. Power in the post is both leverage and strength.

This is more powerlifting focused but it's a good breakdown on just how the size of different bones in your body relative to your height can drastically change how "strong" you'll be in certain lifts. The same is true with basketball. Things as simple as your femur length relative to height and tibia can DRASTICALLY change how you're able to function in the post.

Watch on YouTube

Appreciate your thoughts and the information guys.

I'll say when you say "not all legs", to me that's another way of saying "too heavy to be the best at help defense".

From my perspective, the bigger your torso, the stronger and slower you tend to be relative to height.

This isn't to say that someone can't be well above NBA average at both agility and strength, but I think the optimal body for one is not the optimal body for another, and by that same token, any individual's body completely optimized for one cannot also be optimized for the other.

On specific guys mentioned:

- Green has strength & speed, but lacks the height & length to be the classic defensive anchor, and if he had that height & length without losing some weight, then he wouldn't be a world class shot-blocking help defender. Hasn't stopped him from being the best defender of his era... because he hasn't had to compete with a Bill Russell or a Kevin Garnett... or going forward, a Victor Wembanyama.

- Ben. Great example of a guy having & eating his cake, but I also wouldn't consider him as impactful of a defender as there very best of the taller guys.

- Kawhi, another great example, with considerably bigger issues compared to Green or Ben. Kawhi might be just about the perfect one-on-one man defender to go along with a great iso scorer, and his tragedy is the fact that he actually plays a team sport he doesn't really understand the nuances of.

- Marc. Really never that much of a shot blocker. Could have blocked more if he lost weight, but that would have come at a strength cost. Also, Marc like Dray is getting by with a skyhigh BBIQ.

[SlimShady83]

Just glad to see the poll going in the right direction, started off a little shady last night.

[og15]

1v1 is a whole different sport tbh.

What are the rules? 2's and 3's or 1's and 2's, because 1's and 2's you can spam 3PT shots more. What are they playing to? Is it one shot and done, or are they doing offensive rebounds?

Players are usually more physical in 1v1 than 5v5, just by the nature of it.

I find many times basketball fans might not do the best job of gauging 1v1 battle because there's too much thought of players 5v5 skills.

For example, in 1v1, below average handles which are partly so because a guy can't dribble in traffic are now more effective because there's no help defense, no one swiping at the ball or blocking space.

This is a tough one though, would love to see stuff like this, but we never will. I think it comes down to whose conditioning is better (if it's not like to 7) and who's shot drops more.

If you're doing like a 7 game series, winner is 4-3 in this one.

[NZB2323]

It depends on how Jokic shoots on his 3s because he’s not stopping Hakeem from scoring 2s.

[dhsilv2]

I'm into the theory. Does strong lower body strength automatically make you not light on your feet though? It checks out with some high-end DPOY examples like Victor, Hakeem, KG, Giannis. If it's a rule though, there's plenty of exceptions. Draymond Green is a brutal in the post (better there than he is on the perimeter in space). Ben Wallace's primary value was his vertical defense and his ability to recover/cover ground, but he's also famous for holding ground against Shaq. Kawhi Leonard has legendary core strength. Marc Gasol was a genius level paint protector, but also famous for locking down opponent post scorers.

I think some guys are eating their cake?

If you're a tall guy but have "normal" human proportions. Meaning you're not all legs and I'm sure it's more nuanced than this. You can have both. Or you're a bit shorter with freaky long arms.

The problem many of these lighter and quicker guys had was they are high waisted and as a result they just can't get low. Power in the post is both leverage and strength.

This is more powerlifting focused but it's a good breakdown on just how the size of different bones in your body relative to your height can drastically change how "strong" you'll be in certain lifts. The same is true with basketball. Things as simple as your femur length relative to height and tibia can DRASTICALLY change how you're able to function in the post.

Watch on YouTube

Appreciate your thoughts and the information guys.

I'll say when you say "not all legs", to me that's another way of saying "too heavy to be the best at help defense".

From my perspective, the bigger your torso, the stronger and slower you tend to be relative to height.

This isn't to say that someone can't be well above NBA average at both agility and strength, but I think the optimal body for one is not the optimal body for another, and by that same token, any individual's body completely optimized for one cannot also be optimized for the other.

On specific guys mentioned:

- Green has strength & speed, but lacks the height & length to be the classic defensive anchor, and if he had that height & length without losing some weight, then he wouldn't be a world class shot-blocking help defender. Hasn't stopped him from being the best defender of his era... because he hasn't had to compete with a Bill Russell or a Kevin Garnett... or going forward, a Victor Wembanyama.

- Ben. Great example of a guy having & eating his cake, but I also wouldn't consider him as impactful of a defender as there very best of the taller guys.

- Kawhi, another great example, with considerably bigger issues compared to Green or Ben. Kawhi might be just about the perfect one-on-one man defender to go along with a great iso scorer, and his tragedy is the fact that he actually plays a team sport he doesn't really understand the nuances of.

- Marc. Really never that much of a shot blocker. Could have blocked more if he lost weight, but that would have come at a strength cost. Also, Marc like Dray is getting by with a skyhigh BBIQ.

There's no question there is a trade off. Shorter legs, especially femurs tends to generate bulkier and denser leg muscles. Less range for the muscle to spread out over, but it seem muscle density not total size/weight is more correlated with strength. But there are just natural leverage advantages that can happen absent being heavier or lighter.

I'd add now we need to talk more detailed here. At first the "cake" was to be a strong post defender and help defender. If we add in that one needs to be a rim protector at an elite level TOO. Now that is a more "can't have your cake and eat it too" scenario as those 3 are very much seemingly impossible to mix. As Marc was both a great post defender and help defender. But you're right...he was ok at the rim. Though it isn't impossible to have someone be more "average" proportions upper /lower. But with a wild standing reach. That's kinda what Dray would be if we added an inch to his upper, lower, and arms. But he's not that tall.