Wade in Tmac's Orlando situation

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Re: Wade in Tmac's Orlando situation 

Post#21 » by jzmagik » Sun Jan 20, 2008 8:39 pm

BBallFreak wrote:-= original quote snipped =-



What I'm telling you though is that that makes no sense at all.

Wade carried his team to a championship. Ask yourself this, if T-Mac had done the same for Orlando, would he have been criticized shortly afterwards for not being able to carry a team? No! Why? BECAUSE HE'D HAVE CARRIED A TEAM!


And now appears the double standard. Wade DID NOT CARRY A TEAM, HE HAD SHAQ. You need talent to win a championship the only other person in NBA history to have done it almost alone was Hakeem and Wilt. Wade had far more talent on his championship team than Tmac's Orlando teams. You telling me the Heat weren't favored to beat the Nets in the first round that year?
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Re: Wade in Tmac's Orlando situation 

Post#22 » by deknow » Sun Jan 20, 2008 8:39 pm

Flash3 wrote:-= original quote snipped =-

Penny's probably saying the same thing.....


they were too young then. But ya I think Penny feels cheated too.
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Re: Wade in Tmac's Orlando situation 

Post#23 » by Flash3 » Sun Jan 20, 2008 8:40 pm

deknow wrote:-= original quote snipped =-



they were too young then. But ya I think Penny feels cheated too.
an excuse...

thanks, you made my point.
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Re: Wade in Tmac's Orlando situation 

Post#24 » by deknow » Sun Jan 20, 2008 8:40 pm

BBallFreak wrote:-= original quote snipped =-



Yeah, because those 13 points really carried us past Dallas, I'll tell you what...


It has nothing to do with how much he scores its how much attention he commands
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Re: Wade in Tmac's Orlando situation 

Post#25 » by Flash3 » Sun Jan 20, 2008 8:43 pm

jzmagik wrote:-= original quote snipped =-



And now appears the double standard. Wade DID NOT CARRY A TEAM, HE HAD SHAQ. You need talent to win a championship the only other person in NBA history to have done it almost alone was Hakeem and Wilt. Wade had far more talent on his championship team than Tmac's Orlando teams. You telling me the Heat weren't favored to beat the Nets in the first round that year?
If you're going to sit here and say that, you might want to say the same about MJ, Magic, Bird, Hakeem and just about everyone else.

No matter how great of a player you are, you can't win titles in this league alone. Bird couldn't do it. Magic couldn't do it. Hakeem couldn't do it. MJ couldn't do it. Shaq couldn't do it.

But, all of these players do have 1 thing in common. THEY were the reason as to why their respective teams are champions today, some multiple. Wade DEFINITELY fits that category. -- He did things in that post-season that very few have ever done in this league, and that includes the HOFs/GOATs.

However you want to define 'carried a team' is your prerogative, but if these respective players did it for their teams, Wade DEFINITELY did it for his team.
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Re: Wade in Tmac's Orlando situation 

Post#26 » by deknow » Sun Jan 20, 2008 8:44 pm

Flash3 wrote:-= original quote snipped =-

an excuse...

thanks, you made my point.


At what point in his career did shaq win his first championship? You have to learn how to win sir :crazy:
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Re: Wade in Tmac's Orlando situation 

Post#27 » by jzmagik » Sun Jan 20, 2008 8:45 pm

Flash3 wrote:-= original quote snipped =-

If you're going to sit here and say that, you might want to say the same about MJ, Magic, Bird, Hakeem and just about everyone else.

No matter how great of a player you are, you can't win titles in this league alone. Bird couldn't do it. Magic couldn't do it. Hakeem couldn't do it. MJ couldn't do it. Shaq couldn't do it.

But, all of these players do have 1 thing in common. THEY were the reason as to why their respective teams are champions today, some multiple. Wade DEFINITELY fits that category. -- He did things in that post-season that very few have ever done in this league, and that includes the HOFs/GOATs.


I agree, but then why does Tmac deserve criticism of not being able to "carry" a team despite not having Grant Hill for all those years? It's as if people expected him to win a championship with a talentless team.
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Re: Wade in Tmac's Orlando situation 

Post#28 » by BBallFreak » Sun Jan 20, 2008 8:46 pm

jzmagik wrote:And now appears the double standard. Wade DID NOT CARRY A TEAM, HE HAD SHAQ.


Wow, those 13 points really carried us, huh?

You need talent to win a championship the only other person in NBA history to have done it almost alone was Hakeem and Wilt.


No one's denying that.

Wade had far more talent on his championship team than Tmac's Orlando teams.


But that's not why T-Mac gets criticized. T-Mac gets criticized because he's never taken anyone anywhere and he's been in the league for a decade. When Wade misses a decade's worth of second round appearances, then you can start to criticize him for not being able to carry a team past the first round.

You telling me the Heat weren't favored to beat the Nets in the first round that year?


I believe I told you we weren't favored to win against Detroit or Dallas. I don't believe I mentioned New Jersey. The point, however, was that Miami, driven by Wade, managed to do more than they were expected to do...
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Re: Wade in Tmac's Orlando situation 

Post#29 » by Flash3 » Sun Jan 20, 2008 8:46 pm

deknow wrote:-= original quote snipped =-



At what point in his career did shaq win his first championship? You have to learn how to win sir :crazy:
How many years did Kobe and Shaq play together?

It wasn't until Kobe was ready and mature to carry the load at times did those 2 get on the same page.

But, to digress for a second, Shaq/Wade were 1:30 shy of the NBA Finals in their 1st season together, and won it in their 2nd season.

You can't win titles in this league alone, it has been proven year in and year out. No matter if you have Shaq or not, it isn't a guaranteed title. My Point.
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Re: Wade in Tmac's Orlando situation 

Post#30 » by BBallFreak » Sun Jan 20, 2008 8:49 pm

jzmagik wrote:I agree, but then why does Tmac deserve criticism of not being able to "carry" a team despite not having Grant Hill for all those years? It's as if people expected him to win a championship with a talentless team.


:roll:

Partly because of the way he left Toronto, and partly because of the fact that even in Houston, he hasn't been able to do it.
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Re: Wade in Tmac's Orlando situation 

Post#31 » by deknow » Sun Jan 20, 2008 8:53 pm

Flash3 wrote:-= original quote snipped =-

How many years did Kobe and Shaq play together?

It wasn't until Kobe was ready and mature to carry the load at times did those 2 get on the same page.

But, to digress for a second, Shaq/Wade were 1:30 shy of the NBA Finals in their 1st season together, and won it in their 2nd season.

You can't win titles in this league alone, it has been proven year in and year out. No matter if you have Shaq or not, it isn't a guaranteed title. My Point.


Nobody is denying Wade's talent but do you think he can win with Juwan Howard? Shaq tips the scale when paired with a talented player. He's was the only player in the league that presented a mismatch regardless of who he was playing against. EVERYTIME down the court. Yao is nothing close to that.
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Re: Wade in Tmac's Orlando situation 

Post#32 » by jzmagik » Sun Jan 20, 2008 8:54 pm

BBallFreak wrote:-= original quote snipped =-

Wow, those 13 points really carried us, huh?


No one's denying that.


But that's not why T-Mac gets criticized. T-Mac gets criticized because he's never taken anyone anywhere and he's been in the league for a decade. When Wade misses a decade's worth of second round appearances, then you can start to criticize him for not being able to carry a team past the first round.


I believe I told you we weren't favored to win against Detroit or Dallas. I don't believe I mentioned New Jersey. The point, however, was that Miami, driven by Wade, managed to do more than they were expected to do...


You're first statement is just silly, trying to quantify Shaq's impact on a game when we both know its more than numbers. How bout we replace Shaq with Juwan Howard instead? I believe he was averaging 11 points.

Tmac has never gotten past the first round in a decade, you're right. But again, what talent did he ever have to compete with? We are seeing right now how Wade can't do it alone this season, which justifies my point of you can't win without talent, which again, Tmac never had. But for some reason people ripped him in Orlando for not getting out of the first round when they weren't favored to win, and when Grant Hill was in a suit every game taking 90 mill.

The point I was trying to make was the Heat were at least favored to make it out of their first round matchups, which can't be said for Tmac's Orlando teams.
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Post#33 » by deknow » Sun Jan 20, 2008 8:56 pm

Wow, those 13 points really carried us, huh?


why do you keep saying that? He commands much attention thats what makes him so dangerous. Wade gets into the lane because Shaq commands so much respect. Its so easy :dontknow:
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Re: Wade in Tmac's Orlando situation 

Post#34 » by jzmagik » Sun Jan 20, 2008 8:57 pm

BBallFreak wrote:-= original quote snipped =-



:roll:

Partly because of the way he left Toronto, and partly because of the fact that even in Houston, he hasn't been able to do it.


Honestly, I've always thought the Toronto leaving was just made up rumors from angry fans, can you provide evidence that Tmac wanted to be "the man"?


And about the Houston situation, yes he hasn't had any playoff success, but it's also been well-documented that the West is far superior to the East, and apart from Yao and Tmac, their team was garbage those years, yet they took Utah and Dallas to 7. I don't want to turn this into a discussion about Tmac's Houston days, but it's safe to say he suffered a lot of flack in his Orlando days for his inability to "carry" a team.
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Re: Wade in Tmac's Orlando situation 

Post#35 » by deknow » Sun Jan 20, 2008 8:58 pm

jzmagik wrote:-= original quote snipped =-



Honestly, I've always thought the Toronto leaving was just made up rumors from angry fans, can you provide evidence that Tmac wanted to be "the man"?


And about the Houston situation, yes he hasn't had any playoff success, but it's also been well-documented that the West is far superior to the East, and apart from Yao and Tmac, their team was garbage those years, yet they took Utah and Dallas to 7. I don't want to turn this into a discussion about Tmac's Houston days, but it's safe to say he suffered a lot of flack in his Orlando days for his inability to "carry" a team.


He said it himself many times. He wanted out of VC's shadow
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Re: Wade in Tmac's Orlando situation 

Post#36 » by Flash3 » Sun Jan 20, 2008 9:00 pm

deknow wrote:-= original quote snipped =-



Nobody is denying Wade's talent but do you think he can win with Juwan Howard? Shaq tips the scale when paired with a talented player. Yao is nothing close to that.
It isn't about if you can play with Shaq or Howard, totally. It is also important to have a supporting cast that fulfills the roles needed to win a title, players like Jud Buechler, Steve Kerr, Horace Grant, Robert Horry, Bruce Bowen, Glen Rice, Derek Fisher, Gary Payton, Alonzo Mourning, James Posey, etc.

He's was the only player in the league that presented a mismatch regardless of who he was playing against. EVERYTIME down the court.
Yes, he WAS. What's your point? -- Shaq hasn't been the one to be doubled/tripled everytime down court since he left LA.
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Post#37 » by snaquille oatmeal » Sun Jan 20, 2008 9:00 pm

Wade is not getting a pass, he can't even get in Chucks favorite 5.
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Re: Wade in Tmac's Orlando situation 

Post#38 » by DraftBoy10 » Sun Jan 20, 2008 9:02 pm

BBallFreak wrote:-= original quote snipped =-



:roll:

Partly because of the way he left Toronto, and partly because of the fact that even in Houston, he hasn't been able to do it.


Comparing Wade and McGrady's success is far from fair, yet you tend to do it in a manner that's irrationale, on top of that you take things out of context.

The matter of the post is...Wade's situation in Miami right now is similar to Orlando's situation with Tracy McGrady. Bottom line is the initial poster is right. He has limited help(very limited), he's banged up(injuries), he's still real young and has a future ahead of him(T-Mac was 25, Wade is idk how old). Both of those **** teams were 1st pick bound(Orlando ultimately nabbed it, who knows for Miami...).

Where in gods name did their success suddenly become a comparision. You're putting up a player that's been in the league(for a decade, yet the franchise player for only 7 or so years) against a player that's been in the league for a few years but a completely different scenario. You had Riley managing one side, and Gabriel one. There's a world of difference.

People aren't going to get at McGrady for being a 2nd round virgin when he's missed 1 in every 3 games he's played so far in becoming a Houston Rocket. How do you expect any consistency to grow from that, a coaching change, several personnel shifts are plenty of obstacles for any team.

T-Mac's time in Orlando was much harder than Wade's in Miami. Significantly harder, T-Mac only had that superb 2nd option Juwan Howard for 1 year of that, the previous 3 years there was the 1 in every 15 games Grant Hill, and Mike Miller(good but not as good as he is right now). T-Mac put up individual numbers of elite class which were the primary reason for thier success( you can say what success? but bottom line is their success was tremendous given thier talent, thier roster, their staff, their entire organization).

Look in Miami, where the roster is better, management is better, talent is better, just the obvious fitting methods are complete ****, and Wade's heading down that same path, but when when you compare the two situations(T-Mac's final year vs. Wade' 2007-2008 campaign) they are similar. But T-Mac was in that situation for 3 years prior to that and worked his way out of it, now Wade's succumb to it.
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Post#39 » by Flash3 » Sun Jan 20, 2008 9:03 pm

deknow wrote:
Wow, those 13 points really carried us, huh?


why do you keep saying that? He commands much attention thats what makes him so dangerous. Wade gets into the lane because Shaq commands so much respect. Its so easy :dontknow:
You either didn't watch the NBA Finals or you don't know what Shaq was relegated to during those Finals, and who REALLY is the reason why Miami won that title, or you just don't care either way.

For 2.5 games the offense was going inside/out; starting with Shaq touching the ball 1st and then having the entire Dallas D collapse on him only for him to force up a shot or turn it over, more than once on occasion.

It wasn't until the 6:30 mark of game 3 where Riley went with Wade initiating the offense, with Shaq getting the ball '2nd' and Wade '1st'-- That entire series changed from that game.

Avery Johnson After Game 5 wrote:We just don't have an answer for Wade, we just don't......


Wade is the reason as to why the Heat are champs today. There's no doubting he got contributions from his teammates that post-season, but it his HE who carried them there and put them in a position to succeed. That is what great players do, put others around them in a position to succeed w/o having the utmost pressure put forth upon them.
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Post#40 » by deknow » Sun Jan 20, 2008 9:05 pm

Flash3 wrote:-= original quote snipped =-



Wade is the reason as to why the Heat are champs today. There's no doubting he got contributions from his teammates that post-season, but it his HE who carried them there and put them in a position to succeed. That is what great players do, put others around them in a position to succeed w/o having the utmost pressure put forth upon them.


Gee thanks for the recap :roll: It doesn't matter where the offense went with Shaq on the court teams are forced to account for him. DO YOU UNDERSTAND???

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