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PG assist numbers inflated? Interesting read here (long)

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Post#21 » by 2poor » Wed May 7, 2008 11:40 pm

There are all sorts of gray areas though. For instance, Chris Paul does a great job of quickly spotting mismatches (usually favoring West), and you can plainly see as he orchestrates the entire offense to clear West's side so that he can go to work. Maybe West takes a few dribbles or what have you, but he would've never got into the favorable position without Chris Paul's "assistance."

Again, just silly. Fairly petty.
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Post#22 » by wigglestrue » Wed May 7, 2008 11:44 pm

2poor wrote:There are all sorts of gray areas though. For instance, Chris Paul does a great job of quickly spotting mismatches (usually favoring West), and you can plainly see as he orchestrates the entire offense to clear West's side so that he can go to work. Maybe West takes a few dribbles or what have you, but he would've never got into the favorable position without Chris Paul's "assistance."

Again, just silly. Fairly petty.


It's not silly or petty. There is a clear definition of what an assist is.
0:01.8 A. Walker makes 3-pt shot from 28 ft (assist by E. Williams) +3 109-108
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D_9qvmXiEuU
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Post#23 » by Boognish » Wed May 7, 2008 11:46 pm

With a subjective stat like assists, I think it's all relative. This just means that one should be careful when comparing players from different eras. Paul is posting great numbers compared to his peers, who, unless there is evidence otherwise, all recieve the same treatment from current statisticians

ex. Pargo also got credited with some fishy assists, according to OP
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Post#24 » by wigglestrue » Wed May 7, 2008 11:49 pm

lakersfr wrote:With a subjective stat like assists, I think it's all relative. This just means that one should be careful when comparing players from different eras. Paul is posting great numbers compared to his peers, who, unless there is evidence otherwise, all recieve the same treatment from current statisticians

ex. Pargo also got credited with some fishy assists, according to OP


Well, as "subjective" as it is, it's something a stat geek with access to a year's worth of game footage for a handful of point guards could determine pretty conclusively. Sigh.
0:01.8 A. Walker makes 3-pt shot from 28 ft (assist by E. Williams) +3 109-108
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D_9qvmXiEuU
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Post#25 » by Boognish » Wed May 7, 2008 11:52 pm

Stat geeks assemble!
The RealGM world needs saving!
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Post#26 » by 2poor » Wed May 7, 2008 11:53 pm

wigglestrue wrote:It's not silly or petty. There is a clear definition of what an assist is.


And it is also widely known that official scorekeepers use their own discretion when crediting a player with an assist in basketball, a hit in baseball, a tackle in football, etc.
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Post#27 » by wigglestrue » Wed May 7, 2008 11:58 pm

2poor wrote:And it is also widely known that official scorekeepers use their own discretion when crediting a player with an assist in basketball, a hit in baseball, a tackle in football, etc.


Whatever, dude. You're talking about subtle shades and mere inches in the other two sports, and here the OP is talking about situations in basketball where an assist has been attributed in clear violation of the definition of an assist, hell, in violation of the spirit of an assist.
0:01.8 A. Walker makes 3-pt shot from 28 ft (assist by E. Williams) +3 109-108
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D_9qvmXiEuU
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Post#28 » by NBAPhoJ » Wed May 7, 2008 11:58 pm

Assists are a subjective stat- always have, and always will. Perhaps so much in the NBA, but in the college ranks assist inflation most definitely does exist. Some scorekeepers are just going to be more liberal about handing out assists than others. It's not about boosting the stats of the home team, its just a liberal scorekeeper.

But I don't see why Chris Paul is being singled out here. As was brought up earlier, his home and road assist numbers are pretty much identical, so you can throw out the notion of the assist-happy home scorekeeper. It's just a matter of the changing definition of an assist. Might it skew some historical records? Well yeah. But when comparing players from different eras, you typically compare how dominant they were relative to other players in their time. The new, liberal, assist is being applied to all NBA players, and CP3 still handily won the assist crown. That's the reason why he's being compared to the all-time greats as much as the absolute number of 11 assists per game.

It's no different from mentally adjusting stats when comparing the players of the early 2000's to the players of the high-scoring, up and down, pace from the late 80's and early 90s.
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Post#29 » by ilikecb4 » Wed May 7, 2008 11:59 pm

well look

the hornest have excellent team chemisty

everyone knows where to shoot from and that's where paul gives them the ball

peja shoots around screens or wide open
david west shoots midrange shots on elbows
mo pete shoots corner 3s
tyson chandler dunks and putbacks

everyone knows their role...

it's called being a good team...
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Post#30 » by Basileus777 » Thu May 8, 2008 1:15 am

His assists are inflated, but so are a lot of player's. Assists aren't all that valuable of a stat because of this.
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Post#31 » by semi-sentient » Thu May 8, 2008 1:41 am

It's funny that this subject came up, because I was noticing the exact same thing in the Hornets last game.

That said, it doesn't really matter in the grand scheme of things. What matters is who is standing when it's all said and done, so stats are a distant second to most players/real fans if their team just won a championship.
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Post#32 » by Death Knight » Thu May 8, 2008 1:50 am

I don't believe the description of the first assist. I don't believe that they would confuse or mistake a hockey assist. They really gave the assist to Paul instead of Wells?

I don't believe!

I don't feel like checking it out either............
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Post#33 » by NO-KG-AI » Thu May 8, 2008 2:15 am

el oh el
Doctor MJ wrote:I don't understand why people jump in a thread and say basically, "This thing you're all talking about. I'm too ignorant to know anything about it. Lollerskates!"
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Post#34 » by insfo » Thu May 8, 2008 2:32 am

Wonder how many match-ups I lost in fantasy basketball because of this :lol:
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Post#35 » by JellosJigglin » Thu May 8, 2008 2:51 am

Copperhead wrote:-= original quote snipped =-



He gets them in the best positions/best spots to make shots.

Not directed at you Jellos but is this what it comes down to now? When Paul leads the league in any category, people will look to find out how his numbers come and how they're 'inflated'? LMAO!


I agree he gets it to them in good spots. I'm just saying as a team they don't do a lot of passing. Paul kicks it out, and usually whoever catches it shoots it. They don't have any secondary passers. It's not a knock on Paul at all, it's just the style of the team's play. He's the only guy on that team who can create a shot, so whenever a guy catches a pass from him, they better shoot it, and more often than not, they do.

Perhaps this wasn't the best thread to address it in, because it's not really the same thing the OP is talking about.

2poor wrote:-= original quote snipped =-



Pace disagrees with you. They were one of the slowest teams in the league.


I never said it's always early in the shot clock. He does a lot of dribbling, as he should, considering they have no other ballhandlers. If the guy he passes to is well covered, they pass it back to him and repeat. That's just what I've seen. I've only watched them play maybe 10 times this season.
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Post#36 » by wigglestrue » Thu May 8, 2008 3:11 am

It really is a shame this thread had to inherit a single-out-Chris-Paul tone because of the original story, the OP, the title...because I get the feeling that negligently lenient assist credits are given out by scorekeepers around the league and it was just bound to be noticed in a game featuring the league's best PG because that's just who most observant NBA fans are really watching. Not because that PG receives the most gifts, but because he's the most gifted, and all eyes are on him. Oh, and his team. I mean, assists were misattributed across the whole team, and tended to screw David West. Maybe this is a story about how the still massively underrated David West can't get no respect, not even from his own scorekeepers! Maybe this is a story about scorekeepers in general, who've been screwing up a lot this year. Maybe townie scorekeepers suck and should be replaced by a union of educated stat mavens. I can easily see some NO scorekeeper giving Paul's box score a superfluous bump here and there, consciously or unconsciously. I can even see an opponent's scorekeeper crediting things to Paul out of excitement for being able to see this megahyped and legitimately great player in that one game of the season. It's only natural to catch the Chris Paul vapors. But for this story to be about Chris Paul...not fair. Quite petty after all. I changed my mind.
0:01.8 A. Walker makes 3-pt shot from 28 ft (assist by E. Williams) +3 109-108
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D_9qvmXiEuU
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Post#37 » by wigglestrue » Thu May 8, 2008 3:24 am

Actually the original poster was just as adamant about it not being about CP3.
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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D_9qvmXiEuU
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Post#38 » by wigglestrue » Thu May 8, 2008 3:33 am

Actually, the story or whatever it was excerpted from wasn't anti-Paul, either.
It was just about the poor attribution of assists in the NBA.
And how the box score isn't totally reliable.

That was just a poor choice of thread titles. Needlessly got the Hornets fans riled up in a reflexive defensive swarm, as would happen to any fanbase if their star was unfairly criticized.
0:01.8 A. Walker makes 3-pt shot from 28 ft (assist by E. Williams) +3 109-108
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D_9qvmXiEuU
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Post#39 » by 5DOM » Thu May 8, 2008 4:00 am

LeBron's point numbers inflated? there are rules written for him
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Post#40 » by Doctor MJ » Thu May 8, 2008 4:19 am

Wow. This a perfect case of someone taking an useful observation and screwing it all up by mixing it with hearsay to come to a conclusion supporting what they believed before they started.

First let me say, pointing out the arbitrary nature of assists is something that isn't done enough. People really do put too much stock in the ability to use them to get a gauge of how good of a passer a guy is.

Second, it's basically a given that on the whole big time players get things going there way on a whole slew of things, so Paul getting assists he doesn't deserve doesn't surprise me. But I would caution people against saying that necessarily means he's overrated.

Last, the random throwing in of Steve Nash is this is just comical. For one, for an offense that's been as successful as Phoenix has been, they don't really generate that many assists. Beyond that, Nash is the only star point guard I've been able to find whose assist totals consistently go up on the road rather than the other way around. Such a trend is certainly not caused by him getting benefit of the doubt on assists where other stars don't. And of course, I'll say for the millionth time: Steve Nash didn't win the MVP because he led the league in assists, he got it because the effect he had on the team.
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