Because GOAT is opinion based. I may think that Shaq is greater than Hakeem, but many on this board think the opposite. Who is right? I can say Shaq has more rings, but they say he had more help. So the rings argument is not valid in their opinion. I think that Jerry West playing in the modern NBA would not have been anywhere near as good as he was because of the style of play. But does that make him any less great?
There is no clear answer. Top 10 lists are not entirely based on fact. If so, there would have to be a clear list of variables to base it on, and you can't do that for the top 10 NBA players because not everything has remained constant.
Example- put prime Shaq playing in Mikan's era. Put Russell on the Grizzlies in the present. Put prime Jordan in today's game where there is no hand checking allowed. There are all kinds of complications to consider. My top 10 will differ from yours and everybody else's because of my favoritism. I don't think Kobe belongs there yet because he is yet to LEAD a team to a championship multiple times as the #1 option. He is one of the greatest to play the game now, but not top 10 yet. He is certainly the best in the league right now as far as skill and determination. But his whole body of work is not complete yet. When he is past his prime, let's look back at his career and he will probably be near the top 10, but most people agree that he would have to surpass one or more of the following to get there-
Jordan
Wilt
Magic
Bird
Kareem
Russell
West
Shaq
Duncan (damn, it hurt to say that)
Havlicek
Cousy
Etc.
Kobe may certainly be "better" than some on that list, but his career may or may not end up better than one of those guys' careers.
What is the Criteria to be a Top 10 Player All-Time?
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legacyinthemakin89c
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Well Havlicek and Cousy also had a lot of help. I'm not saying they aren't some of the greatest players ever, but when you have 2 or 3 of the top 10 guys in the league on your team, its very easy to be successful.
Havlicek is one of the greatest shooting guards of all time, but does he win any championships without Russell or Cowens. It is completly unfair in some sense, because the same argument could be said about if Russell would win without his guys, or Jordan without his. But Russell was the predetermined best player on that team, so therefore, he receives the most credit.
If I had to pick a top ten, and by doing so I'll give my reasons why they have the qualities to be there: (In no particular Order)
Jordan- Face of the league and completly altered the way the game was played. One of the greatest offensive and defensive players of all time. If you want his references, just look up next time you go to a Bulls game.
Wilt- Greatest statistical giant to ever play the game. With players like Russell or Jordan, I feel like they have the will and mindset to just plain win, and therefore they're statistics came out as they did. Wilt I feel like just dominated to the point where his statistical greatness and dominance just overpowered the rest of the league and he won a couple of rings. No other player can claim that.
Russell- Greatest winner of all time. One of the greatest defenders of all time. And he understood and developed this game as much as anyone else in history.
Magic- Recreated the league and brought it into its golden years with Bird. Has the rings, awards and incredible statistics to backup a top ten claim. Arguably had the best court vision of any player in history.
Bird- One of the greatest offensive forces ever. Has the rings to prove it. He was the face of the league with Magic and they helped revive it. When your a top 2 player during the era which shaped everything we have today, he has to be considered one of the greatest.
Shaq- Most physically dominant and gifted player to ever play. He dominated the league for several years, has the titles to back this claim up and even though he only has one MVP, until a player comes around that is more dominant then Shaq was, he has to be up here.
Kareem- One of the greatest offensive and defensive players of all time. He is one of the leagues greatest winners, greatest individual performers and unless someone knocks him off the scoring leader list, his name has to be up here.
Erving- Defined the Small Forward position. Has 3 titles between the NBA and the ABA, has the MVP's, has the statistics, has the great attitude. He was one of the most dominant players of his era, refined the game in terms of using athleticism, ball handling and can anyone imagine how different the game would be today without Dr. J? And on another note, I feel like being the smallest player to average 2 steals and 2 blocks a game, defines versatility.
Duncan- The 2000's belong to him, Kobe and Shaq. No one else will be as identified during this era like those 3 guys will be. Duncan has 4 rings in which he was the best player on the team, he has the mvps, he has stats which few players could obtain in this era and he is one of the greatest defenders of all time.
Kobe- 2nd greatest shooting guard of all time. One of the most explosive, smart, dynamic scorers the league has ever seen. He has proven he can step up the defense when needed and if he wins 1 or 2 more rings, his place will be unquestionable among these other 9 guys.
So I guess my overall criteria are:
Winners
Dominance
Define an Era- All of these guys defined an era. Russell and Wilt defined the 60's. Erving and Kareem defined the 70's. Magic and Bird the 80's, Jordan and Shaq the 90's and Kobe and Duncan the 2000's.
Have an impact on the game
Individual greatness
And I think one of the key things is, be a likable figure. All of thoese ten guys have been the faces of the league in mostly positive ways and are likable characters.
Havlicek is one of the greatest shooting guards of all time, but does he win any championships without Russell or Cowens. It is completly unfair in some sense, because the same argument could be said about if Russell would win without his guys, or Jordan without his. But Russell was the predetermined best player on that team, so therefore, he receives the most credit.
If I had to pick a top ten, and by doing so I'll give my reasons why they have the qualities to be there: (In no particular Order)
Jordan- Face of the league and completly altered the way the game was played. One of the greatest offensive and defensive players of all time. If you want his references, just look up next time you go to a Bulls game.
Wilt- Greatest statistical giant to ever play the game. With players like Russell or Jordan, I feel like they have the will and mindset to just plain win, and therefore they're statistics came out as they did. Wilt I feel like just dominated to the point where his statistical greatness and dominance just overpowered the rest of the league and he won a couple of rings. No other player can claim that.
Russell- Greatest winner of all time. One of the greatest defenders of all time. And he understood and developed this game as much as anyone else in history.
Magic- Recreated the league and brought it into its golden years with Bird. Has the rings, awards and incredible statistics to backup a top ten claim. Arguably had the best court vision of any player in history.
Bird- One of the greatest offensive forces ever. Has the rings to prove it. He was the face of the league with Magic and they helped revive it. When your a top 2 player during the era which shaped everything we have today, he has to be considered one of the greatest.
Shaq- Most physically dominant and gifted player to ever play. He dominated the league for several years, has the titles to back this claim up and even though he only has one MVP, until a player comes around that is more dominant then Shaq was, he has to be up here.
Kareem- One of the greatest offensive and defensive players of all time. He is one of the leagues greatest winners, greatest individual performers and unless someone knocks him off the scoring leader list, his name has to be up here.
Erving- Defined the Small Forward position. Has 3 titles between the NBA and the ABA, has the MVP's, has the statistics, has the great attitude. He was one of the most dominant players of his era, refined the game in terms of using athleticism, ball handling and can anyone imagine how different the game would be today without Dr. J? And on another note, I feel like being the smallest player to average 2 steals and 2 blocks a game, defines versatility.
Duncan- The 2000's belong to him, Kobe and Shaq. No one else will be as identified during this era like those 3 guys will be. Duncan has 4 rings in which he was the best player on the team, he has the mvps, he has stats which few players could obtain in this era and he is one of the greatest defenders of all time.
Kobe- 2nd greatest shooting guard of all time. One of the most explosive, smart, dynamic scorers the league has ever seen. He has proven he can step up the defense when needed and if he wins 1 or 2 more rings, his place will be unquestionable among these other 9 guys.
So I guess my overall criteria are:
Winners
Dominance
Define an Era- All of these guys defined an era. Russell and Wilt defined the 60's. Erving and Kareem defined the 70's. Magic and Bird the 80's, Jordan and Shaq the 90's and Kobe and Duncan the 2000's.
Have an impact on the game
Individual greatness
And I think one of the key things is, be a likable figure. All of thoese ten guys have been the faces of the league in mostly positive ways and are likable characters.
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jaypo
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I pretty much agree with what you said. But there are those that will rate Akeem above Shaq, and some even above Wilt, because he won 2 titles with lesser talent. I dasagree with them. I think Akeem was one of the best centers of all time, but not on that same level as Wilt, Kareem, Russell, and Shaq. Then there's always that argument about "If this person played in this era, he'd have dominated". Most top 10 lists will probably include Jordan, Russell, Wilt, Kareem, Bird, Magic, and Shaq. After that, there are hundreds of deserving people, but I just don't think Kobe is there yet. As much as it pains me to say it, the facts show that Duncan led his team to 4 titles (with Parker winning it for them last year), and until Kobe can do that for his team, he'll be behind those guys. He has to accomplish more as the # 1 option and leader of his team to overthrow those mentioned above him.
Side note- the Lakers only clicked to the next level after they added Gasol. That's why I picked CP3 over him for MVP. CP3 excelled the whole year, and it didn't take him adding anyone new to the mix to do so.
Side note- the Lakers only clicked to the next level after they added Gasol. That's why I picked CP3 over him for MVP. CP3 excelled the whole year, and it didn't take him adding anyone new to the mix to do so.
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JordansBulls
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Del Sol wrote:I'm sorry, but I think the notion "criteria" for being in the Top 10 AT is absurd.
Players have different careers. They have different roles, different numbers of accolades, etc. That's how basketball is. Of course some will be greater than others, but to draw a line where a magic number of championships, or rings, or MVPS, or DPYs doesn't tell us anything about who, in particular, was greater than someone else. How about a guy that won 5 titles, versus a guy that won 6/7 but with 2 less regular season MVPs? Maybe a bad example, but there's an endless number of permutations you can do. Some guys that may very well be top ten are gonna fall short in certain areas. And in others, they'll meet or exceed the established criteria.
To me, it's the same as the argument people make about what someone "has to do" to be the GOAT. I can't tell you how many times I've heard, "Has to win 6 like Jordan", "Has to win at least 5 MVPs or more", etc. Well then, (assuming Jordan's our GOAT), why didn't he lead the league in scoring and assists, like Wilt? Win 11 titles, like Russell? Every player's career is different.
Bottom line, I think you just have to take the players you want to compare, and make a judgment call. Take into account the numbers, extenuating circumstances, and decide who's top ten (or GOAT). I don't think it can get THAT much more technical, without being unfair.
The biggest issue with me is how they play when it matters most in the playoffs. All alltime greats will be great in the regular season, but how they perform in the playoffs and finals matters most to me.
Just look at the guys who have 2+ Finals MVP's, then look at the ones who have 3+ Finals MVP's and the ones who have more than that. Also consider how dominant they were statistically in comparison with the league. Did they lead in PER/EFF etc. Did they win always as the man or did they win sometimes as the 2nd or 3rd best on the team. That to me is huge as well. Like a guy like Kareem won 6 titles, 5 with another player that is top 5 alltime. How does that play into the criteria? Does 2 Finals MVP's and winning 5 titles with another top 5 player equate greater than winning as the man more times than that?
How about if you never lost to a team that was inferior to yours vs losing to teams that were inferior to yours? Does that equate in the criteria? I would think so.
"Talent wins games, but teamwork and intelligence wins championships."
- Michael Jordan
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BringYoAGame
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There is no Criteria
The immortals of the game are as follows:
Michael, Magic, Bird, Wilt, Russell, Kareem. Then I'd say Oscar and Erving and I believe Shaq and Duncan join em to round out the top 10. Also: Sasha Vujacic. To be top 10, you have to be better than one of them.
The immortals of the game are as follows:
Michael, Magic, Bird, Wilt, Russell, Kareem. Then I'd say Oscar and Erving and I believe Shaq and Duncan join em to round out the top 10. Also: Sasha Vujacic. To be top 10, you have to be better than one of them.
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KobeFarmarEra
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Frosty
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legacyinthemakin89c wrote:My only problem with putting Oscar up there, is that he only won one title and he wasn't even the best player on the team. He put up incredible stats, but he wasn't a great winner.
Can't exactly hold it against him that he spent his prime in a league with one of the best teams ever. He was still a great player.
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legacyinthemakin89c
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Del Sol wrote:-= original quote snipped =-
Why? What if Shaq was at 10 and Hakeem at 11? Considering the debate that RAGES about which of these two is better, it's hardly a total error.
(BTW, I think Hakeem > Shaq).
See I like Hakeem a lot more, but I feel like I just don't recognize him as much as I recognize with Shaq.
I feel like Shaq was more dominant, Hakeem was the better offensive and defensive player, but Shaq has proven he is a better winner. 4 rings wins out over 2, even though Shaq had Kobe and D-Wade.
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Troubadour
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Okay, this is how I determined my OFFICIAL - hold your applause 'til the end - top ten all-time list.
Before I reveal my formula, I should work for ESPN, here's my top 10:
1. Michael Jordan
2. Wilt Chamberlain
3. Kareem Abdul Jabar
4. Oscar Robertson
5. Bill Russell
6. Magic Johnson
7. Larry Bird
8. Hakeem Olajuwon
9. Jerry West
10. Karl Malone
Here's what I considered when I made the list:
1. MVPs
Michael Jordan - 5
Wilt Chamberlain - 4
Kareem Abdul Jabar - 6
Oscar Robertson - 1
Bill Russell - 5
Magic Johnson - 3
Larry Bird - 3
Hakeem Olajuwon -
Jerry West - 0 (1969 NBA Finals MVP)
Karl Malone - 2
2. Championships
Michael Jordan - 6
Wilt Chamberlain - 2
Kareem Abdul Jabar - 6
Oscar Robertson - 1
Bill Russell - 11
Magic Johnson - 5
Larry Bird - 3
Hakeem Olajuwon - 2
Jerry West - 1
Karl Malone - 0
3. Records/Stats
Michael Jordan - Best scorer in NBA history (30.4 PPG on career)
Wilt Chamberlain - 100 Point Game
Kareem Abdul Jabar - Most MVPs in history
Oscar Robertson - Averaged a triple-double
Bill Russell - 11 Championships
Magic Johnson - One of three players to tally over 700 points, assists, and rebounds in one year.
Larry Bird - 3 straight MVPs
Hakeem Olajuwon - All time shot blocker
Jerry West - 0 (1969 NBA Finals MVP)
Karl Malone - Most Defensive Rebounds of all time
Before I reveal my formula, I should work for ESPN, here's my top 10:
1. Michael Jordan
2. Wilt Chamberlain
3. Kareem Abdul Jabar
4. Oscar Robertson
5. Bill Russell
6. Magic Johnson
7. Larry Bird
8. Hakeem Olajuwon
9. Jerry West
10. Karl Malone
Here's what I considered when I made the list:
1. MVPs
Michael Jordan - 5
Wilt Chamberlain - 4
Kareem Abdul Jabar - 6
Oscar Robertson - 1
Bill Russell - 5
Magic Johnson - 3
Larry Bird - 3
Hakeem Olajuwon -
Jerry West - 0 (1969 NBA Finals MVP)
Karl Malone - 2
2. Championships
Michael Jordan - 6
Wilt Chamberlain - 2
Kareem Abdul Jabar - 6
Oscar Robertson - 1
Bill Russell - 11
Magic Johnson - 5
Larry Bird - 3
Hakeem Olajuwon - 2
Jerry West - 1
Karl Malone - 0
3. Records/Stats
Michael Jordan - Best scorer in NBA history (30.4 PPG on career)
Wilt Chamberlain - 100 Point Game
Kareem Abdul Jabar - Most MVPs in history
Oscar Robertson - Averaged a triple-double
Bill Russell - 11 Championships
Magic Johnson - One of three players to tally over 700 points, assists, and rebounds in one year.
Larry Bird - 3 straight MVPs
Hakeem Olajuwon - All time shot blocker
Jerry West - 0 (1969 NBA Finals MVP)
Karl Malone - Most Defensive Rebounds of all time
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That Nicka
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Minge
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Top 25 All-Time
01 Michael Jordan
10x All-NBA First Team, 5x MVP, 9x All-Defense First Team, 1x DPOY
14x All-Star, 3x All-Star MVP, 6x World Champion, 6x Finals MVP
Comment: Greatest SG of All-Time
02 Kareem Abdul-Jabbar
10x All-NBA First Team, 6x MVP, 5x All-Defense First Team
19x All-Star, 6x World Champion, 2x Finals MVP
Comment: Greatest C of All-Time
03 Magic Johnson
9x All-NBA First Team, 3x MVP
12x All-Star, 2x All-Star MVP, 5x World Champion, 3x Finals MVP
Comment: Greatest PG of All-Time
04 Larry Bird
9x All-NBA First Team, 3x MVP
12x All-Star, 1x All-Star MVP, 3x World Champion, 2x Finals MVP
Comment: Greatest SF of All-Time
05 Tim Duncan*
9x All-NBA First Team, 2x MVP, 8x All-Defense First Team
10x All-Star, 1x All-Star MVP, 4x World Champion, 3x Finals MVP
Comment: Greatest PF of All-Time
06 Wilt Chamberlain
7x All-NBA First Team, 4x MVP, 2x All-Defense First Team
13x All-Star, 1x All-Star MVP, 1x World Champion, 1x Finals MVP
07 Bill Russell
3x All-NBA First Team, 5x MVP, 1x All-Defense First Team
12x All-Star, 1x All-Star MVP, 11x World Champion
08 Hakeem Olajuwon
6x All-NBA First Team, 1x MVP, 5x All-Defense First Team, 2x DPOY
12x All-Star, 2x World Champion, 2x Finals MVP
09 Shaquille O'Neal*
8x All-NBA First Team, 1x MVP
14x All-Star, 2x All-Star MVP, 4x World Champion, 3x Finals MVP
10 Oscar Robertson
9x All-NBA First Team, 1x MVP
12x All-Star, 3x All-Star MVP, 1x World Champion
11 Moses Malone
4x All-NBA First Team, 3x MVP, 1x All-Defense First Team
11x All-Star, 1x World Champion, 1x Finals MVP
12 Kobe Bryant*
6x All-NBA First Team, 1x MVP, 6x All-Defense First Team
10x All-Star, 2x All-Star MVP, 3x World Champion
13 Jerry West
10x All-NBA First Team, 4x All-Defense First Team
14x All-Star, 1x All-Star MVP, 1x World Champion, 1x Finals MVP
14 Karl Malone
11x All-NBA First Team, 2x MVP, 3x All-Defense First Team
14x All-Star, 2x All-Star MVP
15 Julius Erving
5x All-NBA First Team, 1x MVP (4x ABA First Team, 3x ABA MVP)
11x All-Star, 2x All-Star MVP, 1x World Champion
16 John Havlicek
4x All-NBA First Team, 5x All-Defense First Team
13x All-Star, 8x World Champion, 1x Finals MVP
17 Bob Cousy
10x All-NBA First Team, 1x MVP
13x All-Star, 2x All-Star MVP, 6x World Champion
18 Bob Pettit
10x All-NBA First Team, 2x MVP
11x All-Star, 4x All-Star MVP, 1x World Champion
19 Scottie Pippen
3x All-NBA First Team, 8x All-Defense First Team
7x All-Star, 1x All-Star MVP, 6x World Champion
20 George Mikan
5x All-NBA First Team
4x All-Star, 1x All-Star MVP, 4x World Champion
21 David Robinson
4x All-NBA First Team, 1x MVP, 4x All-Defense First Team, 1x DPOY
10x All-Star, 2x World Champion
22 Elgin Baylor
10x All-NBA First Team
11x All-Star, 1x All-Star MVP
23 Isiah Thomas
3x All-NBA First Team
12x All-Star, 2x All-Star MVP, 2x World Champion, 1x Finals MVP
24 Kevin Garnett*
4x All-NBA First Team, 1x MVP, 7x All-Defense First Team, 1x DPOY
11x All-Star, 1x All-Star MVP
25 Charles Barkley
5x All-NBA First Team, 1x MVP
11x All-Star, 1x All-Star MVP
"*" Denotes an active NBA player (opportunity to move up/down list)
If Kobe wins a championship this year, Finals MVP, he moves above Oscar Robertson
01 Michael Jordan
10x All-NBA First Team, 5x MVP, 9x All-Defense First Team, 1x DPOY
14x All-Star, 3x All-Star MVP, 6x World Champion, 6x Finals MVP
Comment: Greatest SG of All-Time
02 Kareem Abdul-Jabbar
10x All-NBA First Team, 6x MVP, 5x All-Defense First Team
19x All-Star, 6x World Champion, 2x Finals MVP
Comment: Greatest C of All-Time
03 Magic Johnson
9x All-NBA First Team, 3x MVP
12x All-Star, 2x All-Star MVP, 5x World Champion, 3x Finals MVP
Comment: Greatest PG of All-Time
04 Larry Bird
9x All-NBA First Team, 3x MVP
12x All-Star, 1x All-Star MVP, 3x World Champion, 2x Finals MVP
Comment: Greatest SF of All-Time
05 Tim Duncan*
9x All-NBA First Team, 2x MVP, 8x All-Defense First Team
10x All-Star, 1x All-Star MVP, 4x World Champion, 3x Finals MVP
Comment: Greatest PF of All-Time
06 Wilt Chamberlain
7x All-NBA First Team, 4x MVP, 2x All-Defense First Team
13x All-Star, 1x All-Star MVP, 1x World Champion, 1x Finals MVP
07 Bill Russell
3x All-NBA First Team, 5x MVP, 1x All-Defense First Team
12x All-Star, 1x All-Star MVP, 11x World Champion
08 Hakeem Olajuwon
6x All-NBA First Team, 1x MVP, 5x All-Defense First Team, 2x DPOY
12x All-Star, 2x World Champion, 2x Finals MVP
09 Shaquille O'Neal*
8x All-NBA First Team, 1x MVP
14x All-Star, 2x All-Star MVP, 4x World Champion, 3x Finals MVP
10 Oscar Robertson
9x All-NBA First Team, 1x MVP
12x All-Star, 3x All-Star MVP, 1x World Champion
11 Moses Malone
4x All-NBA First Team, 3x MVP, 1x All-Defense First Team
11x All-Star, 1x World Champion, 1x Finals MVP
12 Kobe Bryant*
6x All-NBA First Team, 1x MVP, 6x All-Defense First Team
10x All-Star, 2x All-Star MVP, 3x World Champion
13 Jerry West
10x All-NBA First Team, 4x All-Defense First Team
14x All-Star, 1x All-Star MVP, 1x World Champion, 1x Finals MVP
14 Karl Malone
11x All-NBA First Team, 2x MVP, 3x All-Defense First Team
14x All-Star, 2x All-Star MVP
15 Julius Erving
5x All-NBA First Team, 1x MVP (4x ABA First Team, 3x ABA MVP)
11x All-Star, 2x All-Star MVP, 1x World Champion
16 John Havlicek
4x All-NBA First Team, 5x All-Defense First Team
13x All-Star, 8x World Champion, 1x Finals MVP
17 Bob Cousy
10x All-NBA First Team, 1x MVP
13x All-Star, 2x All-Star MVP, 6x World Champion
18 Bob Pettit
10x All-NBA First Team, 2x MVP
11x All-Star, 4x All-Star MVP, 1x World Champion
19 Scottie Pippen
3x All-NBA First Team, 8x All-Defense First Team
7x All-Star, 1x All-Star MVP, 6x World Champion
20 George Mikan
5x All-NBA First Team
4x All-Star, 1x All-Star MVP, 4x World Champion
21 David Robinson
4x All-NBA First Team, 1x MVP, 4x All-Defense First Team, 1x DPOY
10x All-Star, 2x World Champion
22 Elgin Baylor
10x All-NBA First Team
11x All-Star, 1x All-Star MVP
23 Isiah Thomas
3x All-NBA First Team
12x All-Star, 2x All-Star MVP, 2x World Champion, 1x Finals MVP
24 Kevin Garnett*
4x All-NBA First Team, 1x MVP, 7x All-Defense First Team, 1x DPOY
11x All-Star, 1x All-Star MVP
25 Charles Barkley
5x All-NBA First Team, 1x MVP
11x All-Star, 1x All-Star MVP
"*" Denotes an active NBA player (opportunity to move up/down list)
If Kobe wins a championship this year, Finals MVP, he moves above Oscar Robertson
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KobeFarmarEra
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legacyinthemakin89c wrote:-= original quote snipped =-
See I like Hakeem a lot more, but I feel like I just don't recognize him as much as I recognize with Shaq.
I feel like Shaq was more dominant, Hakeem was the better offensive and defensive player, but Shaq has proven he is a better winner. 4 rings wins out over 2, even though Shaq had Kobe and D-Wade.
Hahah. How old are you?
Shaq could not win a ring without a superstar 4th quarter closer. Hakeem carried that 94 team byhimself. Shaq was more dominant? Hardly. He wasn't even close to the defensive player Hakeem was and overall, Hakeem was a better offensive player.
When peope use (Please Use More Appropriate Word) logic like 4 > 2 it just screams ignorance. Hakeem dominanted Shaq and the favored Magic in the finals. Swept. He punked Shaq plain and simple. And lets not even mention 2006 when Shaq literally road Dwayne Wade and the refs coat tails. Look at the horrid performance he put up in the finals that year. Eric Dampier basically out played him in 3 or 4 of those games. I mean come on. Fact is Shaq would not win with the roster Hakeem had because of his porous free throw shooting and terrible pick and roll defense. It's that simple. But give Hakeem Kobe and Jordan might not have 6 titles.
Re: What is the Criteria to be a Top 10 Player All-Time?
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celticspierce34
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Re: What is the Criteria to be a Top 10 Player All-Time?
you need to be better than the person currently ranked 10th, who that is changes from person to person.JordansBulls wrote:Don't create a list of players, I am just curious on how you define if a player is a top 10 player all time or not.
What do you measure it by?
For instance,
How many titles do you need?
How many MVP's?
How many Finals MVP's?
How many all nba first team and defense teams?
Where you rank in EFF/PER?
Etc
Without mentioning any players names, how would you define based on that if a player is top 10 or no?
Thoughts!!!!
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legacyinthemakin89c
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[quote="KobeFarmarEra"][/quote]
So using your logic, Wilt is clearly above Russell, because without all of those celtics to back him up, Wilt would have won most of the rings Russell did?
Or give the 90's Kobe Bryant and then Jordan doesn't have 6 rings?
Its not ignorance, I feel Hakeem was the better player, and I stated that, but what Im saying is that Shaq is more recognizable. He was more marketed, he defined an era. The last 20 years would be much different in this league if Shaq didn't play then if Hakeem didn't play. Shaq had more of an impact on the game and ok, take away his Miami title, he still has 3 titles in which he was the clear cut best player. You take away Drexler, and Hakeem only has one title. What ifs don't matter.
I can 100% say with confidence that if you put Hakeem on the Lakers in Shaqs position, he would have those 3 titles. But the fact is, he doesn't, and therefore Shaq is viewed as the better player. Shaq was clearly more physically dominant then Hakeem was, and Hakeem was the more skilled player, its just a matter of opinion, but I feel like Shaq defined the last 15 or so years of the league more then Hakeem did, so I have to put him in the top 10.
So using your logic, Wilt is clearly above Russell, because without all of those celtics to back him up, Wilt would have won most of the rings Russell did?
Or give the 90's Kobe Bryant and then Jordan doesn't have 6 rings?
Its not ignorance, I feel Hakeem was the better player, and I stated that, but what Im saying is that Shaq is more recognizable. He was more marketed, he defined an era. The last 20 years would be much different in this league if Shaq didn't play then if Hakeem didn't play. Shaq had more of an impact on the game and ok, take away his Miami title, he still has 3 titles in which he was the clear cut best player. You take away Drexler, and Hakeem only has one title. What ifs don't matter.
I can 100% say with confidence that if you put Hakeem on the Lakers in Shaqs position, he would have those 3 titles. But the fact is, he doesn't, and therefore Shaq is viewed as the better player. Shaq was clearly more physically dominant then Hakeem was, and Hakeem was the more skilled player, its just a matter of opinion, but I feel like Shaq defined the last 15 or so years of the league more then Hakeem did, so I have to put him in the top 10.
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BringYoAGame
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Just to defend my pick, Hakeem is probably just outside my top 10 while Shaq is probably 9 or so. BTW, the list says top 10 player so I count Dr. J's ABA days. The man was far better than just his NBA days. far far better.
Anyway back to Hakeem. I realize Hakeem schooled them when they went head to head in the finals. I realize Hakeem is probably the most polished back to the basket player everyone's seen. Not meaning to drop him down. But I give heavy emphasis to how good a player was at his absolute peak, and Shaq's absolute peak was in 1999-2000, well after Hakeem's prime, and kinda before Duncan's. That year IMO was the best complete season by any big man since Wilt. It was just disgusting, and I watched almost every game first hand. If you go full career vs. full career you can make a strong case Hakeem > Shaq, but I don't think even Dream stops 2000 Shaq. He was just doo damn dominant.
Anyway back to Hakeem. I realize Hakeem schooled them when they went head to head in the finals. I realize Hakeem is probably the most polished back to the basket player everyone's seen. Not meaning to drop him down. But I give heavy emphasis to how good a player was at his absolute peak, and Shaq's absolute peak was in 1999-2000, well after Hakeem's prime, and kinda before Duncan's. That year IMO was the best complete season by any big man since Wilt. It was just disgusting, and I watched almost every game first hand. If you go full career vs. full career you can make a strong case Hakeem > Shaq, but I don't think even Dream stops 2000 Shaq. He was just doo damn dominant.
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jaypo
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Hakeem didn't dominate Shaq. They put up roughly the same stats while Houston doubled and even tripled Shaq, and Orlando played Dream man to man. I watched all those games firsthand.
Had Nick Anderson made 1 of 4 F/T's and one of Houston's so called "scrubs" not hit a lucky 3 pointer, the series would have been a whole lot different.
If you say Dream singlehandedly carried them to the title, well then, who scored the other 60 points per game???
I think Dream was a more skilled player. But the only person more dominant, meaning you have to change your whole game plan to limit, let alone stop a single player, was Wilt, and I even question that. I think Shaq and Wilt playing in the same era would be a pretty close match.
I've stated many times that I have nothing against Dream, and I think he was probably the most overall skilled Center at both ends. But putting him above some of the players that you guys put him above all time just doesn't make sense to me. That's my opinion, and it's debatable.
You can switch Dream with Shaq on the 00-02 Lakers, and they probably do win. But put Shaq with Barkley, Drexler, and Pippen, and who's to say that Shaq doesn't put them over the edge? Shaq did have Dwade, but he also won with Antoine Walker!!! To say Dampier outplayed him is ludicrous. Nowitzki, Dampier, Diop and whoever else they sent to triple and quadruple team Shaq outplayed him 4 to one, allowing Wade to create as he did. It would have been difficult for even Wilt to overpower 4 men at once, especially with the new "no contact" NBA.
Had Nick Anderson made 1 of 4 F/T's and one of Houston's so called "scrubs" not hit a lucky 3 pointer, the series would have been a whole lot different.
If you say Dream singlehandedly carried them to the title, well then, who scored the other 60 points per game???
I think Dream was a more skilled player. But the only person more dominant, meaning you have to change your whole game plan to limit, let alone stop a single player, was Wilt, and I even question that. I think Shaq and Wilt playing in the same era would be a pretty close match.
I've stated many times that I have nothing against Dream, and I think he was probably the most overall skilled Center at both ends. But putting him above some of the players that you guys put him above all time just doesn't make sense to me. That's my opinion, and it's debatable.
You can switch Dream with Shaq on the 00-02 Lakers, and they probably do win. But put Shaq with Barkley, Drexler, and Pippen, and who's to say that Shaq doesn't put them over the edge? Shaq did have Dwade, but he also won with Antoine Walker!!! To say Dampier outplayed him is ludicrous. Nowitzki, Dampier, Diop and whoever else they sent to triple and quadruple team Shaq outplayed him 4 to one, allowing Wade to create as he did. It would have been difficult for even Wilt to overpower 4 men at once, especially with the new "no contact" NBA.