Harden trade: Safe to call a failure now?

[comingbacktousa]

This is a flat out bold faced lie with no supporting evidence. The night Harden was traded, Durants response was, and I quote: "Wow". Moreover, not only was Harden willing to take a pay cut(54 million vs. the Max contract he's obviously worth), but he was also willing to come off the bench for the betterment of the team.

The Thunder are not on the Spurs model, and the only people telling themselves such are Thunder stans. San Antonio invested in a brilliant coach, and they never traded Manu for roster "flexibility". San Antonio is run brilliantly through and through, OKC is just cheap.

What are you talking about??? He declined that offer. How is that willing to do something if you don't do it?
Yea, they never traded Manu because he took a pay cut.

[JDizzel3000]

Well, if im GM of team with another Top 10 player, im clearing capspace for when Durant ( or heck even westbrook) has his contract expiring( or termination option), such is the failure of this trade.
its not about what value they got or not, the problem is what it shows to durant or westbrook. i think i dont need to explain what trading your friend and one of top players on the team when u come fresh of finals battle together means.

if u dont show loyalty to your players, how do you expect them to show it back when their time to make decisions is?

From what I understand, KD and RW were less than pleased with Harden that he wouldnt take slightly less money to stay and try and build something special.

The Thunder are on the Spurs model, and their success has been helped a lot by their core guys taking a little less money to stay together. Harden wanted no part of that.

To have these super teams, you obviously have to be willing to pay up, but you also have to have your stars work with you a little as well.

This is a flat out bold faced lie with no supporting evidence. The night Harden was traded, Durants response was, and I quote: "Wow". Moreover, not only was Harden willing to take a pay cut(54 million vs. the Max contract he's obviously worth), but he was also willing to come off the bench for the betterment of the team.

The Thunder are not on the Spurs model, and the only people telling themselves such are Thunder stans. San Antonio invested in a brilliant coach, and they never traded Manu for roster "flexibility". San Antonio is run brilliantly through and through, OKC is just cheap.

Yeah they were just cheap for this whole move at the end of the day ...harden was going to give them a deal and agree to come off the bench to play with his boys and try to win a title ... Had thy just amnestied Perkins waste of space ass and filled out the roster around KD/RW/Iblocka/Harden with a few good deals they would have potentially just missed getting hit with the tax and been set for years to come ..... Just sad really


Just goes to show you that the boys in OKC weren't ready for prime time at the end of the day they weren't ready to put it all out there to be a dynasty quality team ....

[Chalky White]

This is a flat out bold faced lie with no supporting evidence. The night Harden was traded, Durants response was, and I quote: "Wow". Moreover, not only was Harden willing to take a pay cut(54 million vs. the Max contract he's obviously worth), but he was also willing to come off the bench for the betterment of the team.

The Thunder are not on the Spurs model, and the only people telling themselves such are Thunder stans. San Antonio invested in a brilliant coach, and they never traded Manu for roster "flexibility". San Antonio is run brilliantly through and through, OKC is just cheap.

What are you talking about??? He declined that offer. How is that willing to do something if you don't do it?
Yea, they never traded Manu because he took a pay cut.

You all can make up myths and stories to lesson the sting of reality if you wish, but a fact remains a fact regardless.

http://nba.si.com/2012/11/06/james-hard ... rade-hurt/

“After everything we established — everything we had done — you give me an hour?” Harden told Yahoo! Sports on Monday afternoon. “This was one of the biggest decisions of my life. I wanted to go home and pray about it. It hurt me. It hurt.”

Asked if additional time might have caused him to accept a deal several million dollars short of the $60 million maximum contract Harden had long sought, he responded: “Who knows? Another day, who knows what another day would’ve done?”

Reinforced here:

http://www.businessinsider.com/the-okla ... im-2012-10

Presti offered Harden a four-year deal worth $54 million on Friday and gave him an hour to accept, and if he didn't he would be traded to the Houston Rockets, according to The Oklahoman. Harden wanted more time to decide, but the deal was consummated Saturday.

In other words, it wasn't James Harden's refusal to take a pay cut that lead to his being traded, but Sam Presti's arrogance and shortsightedness. A players value is dictated by the market, by what owners are willing to pay for ones talent. 4 years, $54 million is a bargain for a blossoming star of a SG that looks to be situated as the best at his position going forward. So to is 4 years $60 million, based solely on the fact that teams were willing offer him the max. OKC wasn't even willing to offer him that; Sam Presti was too busy stroking his genius, and your owners are satisfied with cashing out on sold out crowds.

But hey, you got Jeremy Lamb and Steve Adams, right? At the very least, should Dwight Howard sign with the Rockets, Mr. Presti will be able to claim the title of the first ever GM to simultaneously create two title contending teams. In the same conference, no less.

[HB2]

I thought it was clear from the moment it was announced

[comingbacktousa]

In other words, it wasn't James Harden's refusal to take a pay cut that lead to his being traded, but Sam Presti's arrogance and shortsightedness. A players value is dictated by the market, by what owners are willing to pay for ones talent. 4 years, $54 million is a bargain for a blossoming star of a SG that looks to be situated as the best at his position going forward. So to is 4 years $60 million, based solely on the fact that teams were willing offer him the max. OKC wasn't even willing to offer him that; Sam Presti was too busy stroking his genius, and your owners are satisfied with cashing out on sold out crowds.

But hey, you got Jeremy Lamb and Steve Adams, right? At the very least, should Dwight Howard sign with the Rockets, Mr. Presti will be able to claim the title of the first ever GM to simultaneously create two title contending teams. In the same conference, no less.

Where in that does it say he would have accepted the offer? You are claiming that he was willing to accept less but there is absolutely no proof of that. You are the only one talking about myths and such.
Just that he may have on another day,sounds like a cop-out to me. They had talks for months about the extension. He had "a hour" for the final 54 million offer, if that is even true. So far he is the only one that has said anything about the one hour deadline. They gave him a 52 million offer sheet at least the day before if not earlier. He could have went home and "prayed" about it then.

Why are you so obsessed with the Harden trade? Do you post or talk about anything else at all?
Harden got what he wanted, 6 more million to spend on strippers, escorts, etc and Presti got what he thought was a fair trade in return. Get over it.

[WhateverBro]

Where in that does it say he would have accepted the offer? You are claiming that he was willing to accept less but there is absolutely no proof of that. You are the only one talking about myths and such.
Just that he may have on another day,sounds like a cop-out to me. They had talks for months about the extension. He had "a hour" for the final 54 million offer, if that is even true. So far he is the only one that has said anything about the one hour deadline. They gave him a 52 million offer sheet at least the day before if not earlier. He could have went home and "prayed" about it then.

Why are you so obsessed with the Harden trade? Do you post or talk about anything else at all?
Harden got what he wanted, 6 more million to spend on strippers, escorts, etc and Presti got what he thought was a fair trade in return. Get over it.

Come on now, that's uncalled for. Harden is underpaid, the 6 million more should've been a no-brainer for OKC. Don't give me that small market crap, I'm sure the success they would've had with Harden would've made sure they made the mone back in playoff reveneu, merchandise etc.

I'm sure this has been discussed but whatever, I'm looking for the numbers of this. If Thunder had kept Harden, and amnestied Perkins, where would they stand luxury tax wise? I don't see how they can afford to offer a 54 million deal, but 60 million is off the table when he's clearly worth it. That's a little over 1 million extra a year, seriously?

[Fahrenhait]

At the time, nobody knew Harden would be able to be a #1 option, actually alot of people here thought he would get exposed on a team without Durant and Westbrook.

The aftermath is bad, they traded a star BEFORE his prime for an expiring shooter ( who walks for nothing ) and young pieces who seem like they have limited upside.

[comingbacktousa]

Come on now, that's uncalled for. Harden is underpaid, the 6 million more should've been a no-brainer for OKC. Don't give me that small market crap, I'm sure the success they would've had with Harden would've made sure they made the mone back in playoff reveneu, merchandise etc.

I'm sure this has been discussed but whatever, I'm looking for the numbers of this. If Thunder had kept Harden, and amnestied Perkins, where would they stand luxury tax wise? I don't see how they can afford to offer a 54 million deal, but 60 million is off the table when he's clearly worth it. That's a little over 1 million extra a year, seriously?

Yeah it probably is, but it was also reported that he spent a pretty excessive amount on that following the trade.

How about don't look at the money and consider OKC was better by every measurement this year without Harden. Wins, mov, ortg, and drtg.
Whereas Houston won 3 more games then they were paced for the previous year(with 2 of their top 3 leading scorers missed over a 3rd of the season).
Is Harden's impact overrated?
Westbrook, Durant, and Ibaka all had career high numbers as far as per, W/s and efficiency. Is it possible Harden wasn't the best fit with them? and a shooter like Martin was? The team offensive and defensive rating with them on the floor is pretty much identical.

Martin may not be as good of a player to me but it seems like he had the same impact.

[SweetTouch]

Whatever happened to fallacy? the big okc fan

RIP

[boateng]

i like how some many people on here act as if they know more about basketball than gm's like sam presti.

[CablexDeadpool]

At the time, nobody knew Harden would be able to be a #1 option, actually alot of people here thought he would get exposed on a team without Durant and Westbrook.

Harden did get exposed, he's a Prime Gilbert Arenas without a midrange game- he chucks 3s, gets to the line, doesn't care about defense and is a sloppy ballhandler. If the three isn't falling and he isn't getting 10 free throws, it's ugly and he freezes everyone else out, while he takes stepback 3 after stepback 3 because he can't do anything else.

It's ugly as hell.

[Pharmcat]

now that they lost martin, this has become one of the worst trades in the history of the nba....in essence giving up a superstar for 3 unknown rookies while your team is in a championship window period...just awful GMing by presti

[NamelessHero]

At the time, nobody knew Harden would be able to be a #1 option, actually alot of people here thought he would get exposed on a team without Durant and Westbrook.

Harden did get exposed, he's a Prime Gilbert Arenas without a midrange game- he chucks 3s, gets the line, doesn't care about defense and is a sloppy ballhandler and if the three isn't falling and he isn't getting 10 free throws, it's ugly and he freezes everyone else out, while he takes stepback 3 after stepback 3 because he can't do anything else.

It's ugly as hell.

I agree with you but I think Harden knows better and there is some explanation for his ISO-mode game after all star...its just that he probably got instructions from management to go into Kobe mode, to stat pad and thus create picture of superstar in media in order to attract another superstar into Houston...

[tsherkin]

I dunno if labeling Harden a superstar is that accurate; we had a huge thread about that on the PC Board and the end result was basically the idea that it's quite premature to call him that with his game as it stands now.

It seems a very bad trade nonetheless, of course.

[King_John]

I think the comparsion to Arenas is pretty accuarate...he is pretty much a volume scorer on inefficient shooting

[tsherkin]

Except that's inaccurate; Harden (like peak Arenas) is VERY efficient.

His problem is that he is inconsistent and can't do much overall when his 3 isn't falling.

[Neutral 123]

This is a flat out bold faced lie with no supporting evidence. The night Harden was traded, Durants response was, and I quote: "Wow". Moreover, not only was Harden willing to take a pay cut(54 million vs. the Max contract he's obviously worth), but he was also willing to come off the bench for the betterment of the team.

The Thunder are not on the Spurs model, and the only people telling themselves such are Thunder stans. San Antonio invested in a brilliant coach, and they never traded Manu for roster "flexibility". San Antonio is run brilliantly through and through, OKC is just cheap.

What are you talking about??? He declined that offer. How is that willing to do something if you don't do it?
Yea, they never traded Manu because he took a pay cut.

You all can make up myths and stories to lesson the sting of reality if you wish, but a fact remains a fact regardless.

http://nba.si.com/2012/11/06/james-hard ... rade-hurt/

“After everything we established — everything we had done — you give me an hour?” Harden told Yahoo! Sports on Monday afternoon. “This was one of the biggest decisions of my life. I wanted to go home and pray about it. It hurt me. It hurt.”

Asked if additional time might have caused him to accept a deal several million dollars short of the $60 million maximum contract Harden had long sought, he responded: “Who knows? Another day, who knows what another day would’ve done?”

Reinforced here:

http://www.businessinsider.com/the-okla ... im-2012-10

Presti offered Harden a four-year deal worth $54 million on Friday and gave him an hour to accept, and if he didn't he would be traded to the Houston Rockets, according to The Oklahoman. Harden wanted more time to decide, but the deal was consummated Saturday.

In other words, it wasn't James Harden's refusal to take a pay cut that lead to his being traded, but Sam Presti's arrogance and shortsightedness. A players value is dictated by the market, by what owners are willing to pay for ones talent. 4 years, $54 million is a bargain for a blossoming star of a SG that looks to be situated as the best at his position going forward. So to is 4 years $60 million, based solely on the fact that teams were willing offer him the max. OKC wasn't even willing to offer him that; Sam Presti was too busy stroking his genius, and your owners are satisfied with cashing out on sold out crowds.

But hey, you got Jeremy Lamb and Steve Adams, right? At the very least, should Dwight Howard sign with the Rockets, Mr. Presti will be able to claim the title of the first ever GM to simultaneously create two title contending teams. In the same conference, no less.

Hey but in the end, what really matters is that Presti showed the world his dick is bigger!

[Chalky White]

Come on now, that's uncalled for. Harden is underpaid, the 6 million more should've been a no-brainer for OKC. Don't give me that small market crap, I'm sure the success they would've had with Harden would've made sure they made the mone back in playoff reveneu, merchandise etc.

I'm sure this has been discussed but whatever, I'm looking for the numbers of this. If Thunder had kept Harden, and amnestied Perkins, where would they stand luxury tax wise? I don't see how they can afford to offer a 54 million deal, but 60 million is off the table when he's clearly worth it. That's a little over 1 million extra a year, seriously?

Yeah it probably is, but it was also reported that he spent a pretty excessive amount on that following the trade.

How about don't look at the money and consider OKC was better by every measurement this year without Harden. Wins, mov, ortg, and drtg.
Whereas Houston won 3 more games then they were paced for the previous year(with 2 of their top 3 leading scorers missed over a 3rd of the season).
Is Harden's impact overrated?
Westbrook, Durant, and Ibaka all had career high numbers as far as per, W/s and efficiency. Is it possible Harden wasn't the best fit with them? and a shooter like Martin was? The team offensive and defensive rating with them on the floor is pretty much identical.

Martin may not be as good of a player to me but it seems like he had the same impact.

Come on now, that's uncalled for. Harden is underpaid, the 6 million more should've been a no-brainer for OKC. Don't give me that small market crap, I'm sure the success they would've had with Harden would've made sure they made the mone back in playoff reveneu, merchandise etc.

I'm sure this has been discussed but whatever, I'm looking for the numbers of this. If Thunder had kept Harden, and amnestied Perkins, where would they stand luxury tax wise? I don't see how they can afford to offer a 54 million deal, but 60 million is off the table when he's clearly worth it. That's a little over 1 million extra a year, seriously?

Yeah it probably is, but it was also reported that he spent a pretty excessive amount on that following the trade.

How about don't look at the money and consider OKC was better by every measurement this year without Harden. Wins, mov, ortg, and drtg.
Whereas Houston won 3 more games then they were paced for the previous year(with 2 of their top 3 leading scorers missed over a 3rd of the season).
Is Harden's impact overrated?
Westbrook, Durant, and Ibaka all had career high numbers as far as per, W/s and efficiency. Is it possible Harden wasn't the best fit with them? and a shooter like Martin was? The team offensive and defensive rating with them on the floor is pretty much identical.

Martin may not be as good of a player to me but it seems like he had the same impact.

You dont understand what you're watching, which more or less should be expected from an uneducated fan. OKC didn't get "better" in the sense that you are speaking, their core got older and they upped Durant and Westbrook's minutes to compensate for the lack of production elsewhere.

Durant is a prodigious talent, and so the lose wasn't as evident in the regular season as it was in the playoffs when defenses are more aggressive and OKC was in desperate need of a secondary ball handler and scorer. Moreover, Kevin Martin lacks the ability to create his own offense, does not have the capabiliy to sufficiently run both the 1st and 2nd units, is not effective in transition, and is an even worse defender than Harden.

And then there's the fact that Kevin Martin no more plays for OKC than James does.

[comingbacktousa]

You dont understand what you're watching, which more or less should be expected from an uneducated fan. OKC didn't get "better" in the sense that you are speaking, their core got older and they upped Durant and Westbrook's minutes to compensate for the lack of production elsewhere.

Durant is a prodigious talent, and so the lose wasn't as evident in the regular season as it was in the playoffs when defenses are more aggressive and OKC was in desperate need of a secondary ball handler and scorer. Moreover, Kevin Martin lacks the ability to create his own offense, does not have the capabiliy to sufficiently run both the 1st and 2nd units, is not effective in transition, and is an even worse defender than Harden.

And then there's the fact that Kevin Martin no more plays for OKC than James does.

Stop saying incorrect stuff. Like 90% of what you say is flat out wrong.
Durant played the same amount of minutes per game, actually slightly less.
Westbrook played less minutes per a game this past season then the previous season.
Martin had a better on/off oppenent offensive rating as well as.
Harden creating took away from Westbrook creating, there is a direct proportion to Harden and Westbrook's assist. The year Harden "emerged", Westbrook's assist numbers were drastically down. Harden leaves they go back to normal. OKC has a team had more assists per a game without Harden.
Do you look at the facts at all?

OKC '12-13 was better than OKC '11-'12, so moving on to next season

If you want to talk about playoff numbers lets do that.
Player A averaged 16.3 ppg 5.1 boards and 3.4 assist on 55ts%
Player B averaged 15 ppg 5.3 board and and 3.9 assist on 58ts%

Player A- cost 13+ million next year
Player B- cost ~2 million next year

If Jackson sustains his play and/or Lamb emerges at all, OKC will be just fine without OKC.

Someone asked you on the OKC forum, who are you a fan of? Can you answer?
Or do you just like complaining about the Harden trade and how Presti sucks, because that is all you ever seem to post about?

[rjvir]

It wasn't a failure. It was a disaster - the worst trade of the past 20 years and it just keeps getting worse.