Should Lin come off the bench?

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Re: Should Lin come off the bench? 

Post#201 » by 13th Man » Fri Oct 18, 2013 12:43 am

tsherkin wrote:
13th Man wrote:The way that both Lin and PB have progressed I'd be inclined to simply throw away all the numbers from last year and start with a clean slate this year. They seem to be totally different players this year, both more physically and mentally ready.

Since there've only been 4 games with some key missing players, I think it's too early to make a definitive judgment on who's the better player or even the better fit for the team. Nothing wrong with stating our opinions through number-crunching but personally I wouldn't put too much weight on them especially off of last year's numbers, it's more of a time will tell thing imo.


There's no mentionable or worthy sample at all for this season: preseason games are entirely irrelevant.

It isn't entirely unjust to say "see what happens over the first 10 or 15 games" though, and make a decision from there. As I said before, I don't think the issue with Lin is necessarily whether or not he's on the floor when they jump the ball so much as tightly controlling how many minutes he plays. At 30ish mpg, he's hovering right around the efficacy line for a guy like Jose Calderon, who starts to really see diminishing returns when he plays more minutes than that, and Lin is a less effective offensive player than Jose much of the time because he doesn't have anything in his arsenal to fall back on and say "this is elite." Calderon's at least really efficient and a nasty, turnover-stingy PnR guard who feeds his bigs well (although way, WAY worse on D).

The big problem with Lin is essentially that he's a ball-dominant guard who is too sloppy to be ball-dominant over large minutes and who plays next to a ball-dominant guard, which isn't really an awesome situation for him personally. I think it's probably fortunate for Houston that they have another on-ball guy in the backcourt so they don't have to throw Lin to the wolves in a role in which he doesn't belong, though. Toronto's been doing that for three years with DeRozan and it hasn't brought them positive returns, a few preseason games this year notwithstanding.


I have to agree with HotRocks that preseason action can and does say a lot. I am sure you've watched a lot more basketball overall than I have but I've watched every Lin game since his Knicks days plus a lot of footage prior to that. From what I can tell so far this preseason is that Lin is much healthier and stronger than he was at the same time last year, this makes a huge difference. His shot is also tighter as well, which is why I'm inclined not to rely on his last year stats so much and this year there hasn't been all that much to go by. Surely, you can can base your opinion of him on his general play last year (which wasn't all that bad either) but imo he is one of the few guys that have shown tremendous overall improvement so far, both Kevin McHale and Darly Morey have attested to that.

As for Lin's diminishing return the more minutes he plays, didn't he have a couple of monster games last year when given ample minutes? This year he seems to be even healthier so I would suspect that it would only improve his concentration levels on the court.

In this case, I do believe that it's a time will tell scenario, especially since Dwight isn't comfortable yet and Asik hasn't even seen the court. Until you have the real team in there, how can you fully develop that team dynamic?

I respectfully disagree with your assessment, mine is that it will take awhile longer until we'll truly find out who's the best fit when and where.
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Re: Should Lin come off the bench? 

Post#202 » by HotRocks34 » Fri Oct 18, 2013 12:48 am

inquisitive wrote:Morey said the two were the best players on the squad this pre-season.


Them, Casspi, Harden are definitely the best 4 Rockets so far this preseason.

TSherkin -- Totally fair :)

13th Man -- TSherkin knows his stuff. He and I are just coming from slightly different angles on the subject, I think
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Re: Should Lin come off the bench? 

Post#203 » by 13th Man » Fri Oct 18, 2013 12:51 am

HotRocks34 wrote:
inquisitive wrote:Morey said the two were the best players on the squad this pre-season.


Them, Casspi, Harden are definitely the best 4 Rockets so far this preseason.

TSherkin -- Totally fair :)

13th Man -- TSherkin knows his stuff. He and I are just coming from slightly different angles on the subject, I think


HotRocks34, I am sure he knows way more than I do in general. I just disagree with him on this topic and have stated my reasons why, no hard feelings :)
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Re: Should Lin come off the bench? 

Post#204 » by HotRocks34 » Fri Oct 18, 2013 12:53 am

13th Man wrote:
HotRocks34 wrote:
inquisitive wrote:Morey said the two were the best players on the squad this pre-season.


Them, Casspi, Harden are definitely the best 4 Rockets so far this preseason.

TSherkin -- Totally fair :)

13th Man -- TSherkin knows his stuff. He and I are just coming from slightly different angles on the subject, I think


HotRocks34, I am sure he knows way more than I do in general. I just disagree with him on this topic and have stated my reasons why, no hard feelings :)


Good job in being civil. We can all disagree, we just want to try to stay nice while doing so.
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Re: Should Lin come off the bench? 

Post#205 » by tsherkin » Fri Oct 18, 2013 12:54 am

13th Man wrote:
I have to agree with HotRocks that preseason action can and does say a lot. I am sure you've watched a lot more basketball overall than I have but I've watched every Lin game since his Knicks days plus a lot of footage prior to that. From what I can tell so far this preseason is that Lin is much healthier and stronger than he was at the same time last year, this makes a huge difference. His shot is also tighter as well, which is why I'm inclined not to rely on his last year stats so much and this year there hasn't been all that much to go by. Surely, you can can base your opinion of him on his general play last year (which wasn't all that bad either) but imo he is one of the few guys that have shown tremendous overall improvement so far, both Kevin McHale and Darly Morey have attested to that.


Look at his FT% and 3P shooting and tell me, I dare you, that he'll sustain those over a whole season. Then consider his FTR and see if you can justify that as well. We've learned nothing from the games to date. The preseason is a joke, with mixed rosters, coaches taking it easy, random strategies just to try things out, training camp-contract players trying to play their way onto the roster and so forth. And on top of all of that, it's less than ten games. It isn't meaningful at all.

As for Lin's diminishing return the more minutes he plays, didn't he have a couple of monster games last year when given ample minutes?


And? I was speaking in terms of trends, not single-game performances.

I respectfully disagree with your assessment, mine is that it will take awhile longer until we'll truly find out who's the best fit when and where.


I think it's functionally obvious that a league-average offense-producing PG isn't an optimal fit on that lineup, given the meaning of the word. Meantime, I agree that he's likely to progress beyond where he is now and could develop into a player more valuable to a team in a role with heavier minutes, and that time will tell that story. He's an interesting storyline, that's for sure.
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Re: Should Lin come off the bench? 

Post#206 » by 13th Man » Fri Oct 18, 2013 1:20 am

tsherkin wrote:
13th Man wrote:
I have to agree with HotRocks that preseason action can and does say a lot. I am sure you've watched a lot more basketball overall than I have but I've watched every Lin game since his Knicks days plus a lot of footage prior to that. From what I can tell so far this preseason is that Lin is much healthier and stronger than he was at the same time last year, this makes a huge difference. His shot is also tighter as well, which is why I'm inclined not to rely on his last year stats so much and this year there hasn't been all that much to go by. Surely, you can can base your opinion of him on his general play last year (which wasn't all that bad either) but imo he is one of the few guys that have shown tremendous overall improvement so far, both Kevin McHale and Darly Morey have attested to that.


Look at his FT% and 3P shooting and tell me, I dare you, that he'll sustain those over a whole season. Then consider his FTR and see if you can justify that as well. We've learned nothing from the games to date. The preseason is a joke, with mixed rosters, coaches taking it easy, random strategies just to try things out, training camp-contract players trying to play their way onto the roster and so forth. And on top of all of that, it's less than ten games. It isn't meaningful at all.

As for Lin's diminishing return the more minutes he plays, didn't he have a couple of monster games last year when given ample minutes?


And? I was speaking in terms of trends, not single-game performances.

I respectfully disagree with your assessment, mine is that it will take awhile longer until we'll truly find out who's the best fit when and where.


I think it's functionally obvious that a league-average offense-producing PG isn't an optimal fit on that lineup, given the meaning of the word. Meantime, I agree that he's likely to progress beyond where he is now and could develop into a player more valuable to a team in a role with heavier minutes, and that time will tell that story. He's an interesting storyline, that's for sure.


First off, I apologize if I am not the most diplomatic poster, but want to say that there's no disrespect intended nor do I think I am 100% correct.

Surely, there's no way that Lin will be able to sustain his preseason numbers thus far but neither will Beverley. This is why my main argument is that it's just too early to tell based off of 3-4 preseason games. What I can take away from these games though is how much healthier they seem to be physically and mentally from last year. From what I'm seeing so far, Jeremy has noticeable improvements in both areas, shown by his added quickness, consistency and seemingly finer shooting mechanics. Beverley has played very well in fact beastly with the steals and rebounds, but I think it's also silly to assume at this point that he'd be able to routinely get off 4 steals from a starting PG, or 9 rebounds in a game.

As for the better fit, my opinion is that it's even more premature to make a proper judgment on this when Dwight Howard is still trying to settle in, and also one of their key players in Asik hasn't really played with them yet. Those are 2 key component of the lineup so they would obviously factor into the chemistry of the team. So I guess that I do agree with you that this preseason hasn't meant much thus far but I'm taking it a bit farther to say that we'll need much more time to come to be able to come to a reasonable judgment.
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Re: Should Lin come off the bench? 

Post#207 » by tsherkin » Fri Oct 18, 2013 1:24 am

13th Man wrote:
First off, I apologize if I am not the most diplomatic poster, but want to say that there's no disrespect intended nor do I think I am 100% correct.


Pfft. I'm as diplomatic as hired goons come to your door, don't apologize. ;)

Surely, there's no way that Lin will be able to sustain his preseason numbers thus far but neither will Beverley. This is why my main argument is that it's just too early to tell based off of 3-4 preseason games.


I haven't based anything I've said off of any preseason games. I register preseason only as "it's almost time for basketball." I think it's perfectly true that 3 or 4 games don't tell you anything of substance about a player, particularly one so new to the league (and playing time).

So I guess that I do agree with you that this preseason hasn't meant much thus far but I'm taking it a bit farther to say that we'll need much more time to come to be able to come to a reasonable judgment.


It's nice to see that he's healthy, for sure, but most players start the season healthy, it's the part in the middle where they run into trouble, particularly if they try to play a physical brand of basketball.
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Re: Should Lin come off the bench? 

Post#208 » by 13th Man » Fri Oct 18, 2013 2:11 am

tsherkin wrote:
13th Man wrote:
First off, I apologize if I am not the most diplomatic poster, but want to say that there's no disrespect intended nor do I think I am 100% correct.


Pfft. I'm as diplomatic as hired goons come to your door, don't apologize. ;)

Surely, there's no way that Lin will be able to sustain his preseason numbers thus far but neither will Beverley. This is why my main argument is that it's just too early to tell based off of 3-4 preseason games.


I haven't based anything I've said off of any preseason games. I register preseason only as "it's almost time for basketball." I think it's perfectly true that 3 or 4 games don't tell you anything of substance about a player, particularly one so new to the league (and playing time).

So I guess that I do agree with you that this preseason hasn't meant much thus far but I'm taking it a bit farther to say that we'll need much more time to come to be able to come to a reasonable judgment.


It's nice to see that he's healthy, for sure, but most players start the season healthy, it's the part in the middle where they run into trouble, particularly if they try to play a physical brand of basketball.


Yep. I'm higher on Lin than most people, he is a polarizing figure for sure.
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Re: Should Lin come off the bench? 

Post#209 » by LarsV8 » Fri Oct 18, 2013 2:13 am

Not sure why we would waste Beverley's defense against bench talent and have Lin, who strength is ball handling, playing second fiddle alongside Harden, when he could run the show off the bench and put pressure on opposing team's depth. Seems like a no brainer.

And its not a demotion, it is a tactical use of available resources.
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Re: Should Lin come off the bench? 

Post#210 » by 13th Man » Fri Oct 18, 2013 2:34 am

LarsV8 wrote:Not sure why we would waste Beverley's defense against bench talent and have Lin, who strength is ball handling, playing second fiddle alongside Harden, when he could run the show off the bench and put pressure on opposing team's depth. Seems like a no brainer.

And its not a demotion, it is a tactical use of available resources.


Well, given the fact that Harden plays more minutes than anyone, it would definitely look like a demotion if Beverley ends up starting, playing more minutes AND finishes off the games. If I'm not mistaken, Ginobili and OKC Harden usually finished off their games right?

Jeremy has said that he doesn't mind coming off the bench if he ends up playing more minutes and gets to finish the games as well, but that's not for him to decide of course.
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Re: Should Lin come off the bench? 

Post#211 » by Tave » Fri Oct 18, 2013 1:52 pm

tsherkin wrote:
HotRocks34 wrote:I dont agree with this (at least of the currently available options), but we'll see how things shake out. Both guys are playing so well right now, I honestly don't care who starts.


"Of the currently available options," I don't disagree. Beverely's alright, but he's clearly a bench guy. "Optimal," of course, wouldn't include that and I haven't been discussing Beverly at any point in this thread. ;)


But that's the question, "Should Lin come off the bench?" How do you answer that without discussing his replacement?

tsherkin wrote:I think it's functionally obvious that a league-average offense-producing PG isn't an optimal fit on that lineup, given the meaning of the word. Meantime, I agree that he's likely to progress beyond where he is now and could develop into a player more valuable to a team in a role with heavier minutes, and that time will tell that story. He's an interesting storyline, that's for sure.


League-average players aren't an "optimal" fit for any team. Everything else being equal, all teams would prefer to field rosters of above-average players. But life doesn't work like that. That's why it's called "average."

You're ignoring Houston's actual roster (and those of half the teams in the league) and daydreaming about how awesome Houston would be with an upper-echelon point to justify your position that Lin shouldn't start. Obviously in an absolute sense, there are better players out there, but that isn't a fair answer. In a relative sense, he probably deserves to start somewhere. There aren't enough upper-echelon points for every team to get one.
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Re: Should Lin come off the bench? 

Post#212 » by tsherkin » Fri Oct 18, 2013 2:21 pm

Tave wrote:
But that's the question, "Should Lin come off the bench?" How do you answer that without discussing his replacement?


I've answered this like eight times. Review and move on instead of asking the same question and hoping for a new answer.
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Re: Should Lin come off the bench? 

Post#213 » by Tave » Fri Oct 18, 2013 2:54 pm

tsherkin wrote:
Tave wrote:
But that's the question, "Should Lin come off the bench?" How do you answer that without discussing his replacement?


I've answered this like eight times. Review and move on instead of asking the same question and hoping for a new answer.


Nah, you've tip-toed around an answer because you're stuck on what you think his absolute worth is.

In less than two weeks the season will begin. Houston will have to start 5 guys on their roster. Maybe Morey can find a better option than Lin down the road, but for now they have who they have.

If not Lin, who?
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Re: Should Lin come off the bench? 

Post#214 » by hayden » Fri Oct 18, 2013 3:12 pm

Tave wrote:
tsherkin wrote:
Tave wrote:
But that's the question, "Should Lin come off the bench?" How do you answer that without discussing his replacement?


I've answered this like eight times. Review and move on instead of asking the same question and hoping for a new answer.


Nah, you've tip-toed around an answer because you're stuck on what you think his absolute worth is.

In less than two weeks the season will begin. Houston will have to start 5 guys on their roster. Maybe Morey can find a better option than Lin down the road, but for now they have who they have.

If not Lin, who?


Agreed. It's a black and white question that just needs a yes or no answer. Not myriads of qualifying statements and non-sequitur statistics.

For me, the answer is obvious when you pose the question: "Should Patrick Beverly start?" This is a guy who shot 41.8% from the field for 5.6pts a game against other team's second unit.
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Re: Should Lin come off the bench? 

Post#215 » by tcorbin » Wed Oct 30, 2013 12:56 am

Knicky7 wrote:
tcorbin wrote:Yes, Lin is a pretty horrible PG, but an above average ball dominate undersized shooting guard like Jason Terry, Jamal Crawford, or Bobby Jackson.

he is a poor defender, below average 3pt shooter, below average passer, but an above average player when it comes to creating his own shot.

he shouldn't start, but he should dominate the ball when Harden goes out and go up against the other team's second unit. but in the last five minutes of the game you could use a line up of Dwight/Parson/Harden/Lin/Beverley if the teams wants to go small and get some 3pt shooting around Dwight.


lol at people making comments without watching games


You obviously have no idea what you are talking about or even know basketball or player evaluation :lol:
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Re: Should Lin come off the bench? 

Post#216 » by orlandomanic » Wed Oct 30, 2013 10:52 am

Lin is not a good PG, he is better off, coming off the bench as a shooting guard.
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Re: Should Lin come off the bench? 

Post#217 » by tcorbin » Tue Nov 5, 2013 10:07 am

The defense Lin puton Chris Paul was the absolute worst defense i have ever seen on CP3. :lol:
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Re: Should Lin come off the bench? 

Post#218 » by bballfanatic81 » Tue Nov 5, 2013 2:23 pm

LarsV8 wrote:Not sure why we would waste Beverley's defense against bench talent and have Lin, who strength is ball handling, playing second fiddle alongside Harden, when he could run the show off the bench and put pressure on opposing team's depth. Seems like a no brainer.

And its not a demotion, it is a tactical use of available resources.


after last night's debacle, you should be saying benching harden for beverley.
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Re: Should Lin come off the bench? 

Post#219 » by litex » Tue Nov 5, 2013 2:32 pm

tcorbin wrote:The defense Lin puton Chris Paul was the absolute worst defense i have ever seen on CP3. :lol:


Nobody on the Rockets was playing defense worth a damn--its not like Harden was doing a good job on Redick. Lin didn't have a great night, but he was far from the primary reason Houston lost.
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Re: Should Lin come off the bench? 

Post#220 » by DWiz » Tue Nov 5, 2013 2:36 pm

litex wrote:
tcorbin wrote:The defense Lin puton Chris Paul was the absolute worst defense i have ever seen on CP3. :lol:


Nobody on the Rockets was playing defense worth a damn--its not like Harden was doing a good job on Redick. Lin didn't have a great night, but he was far from the primary reason Houston lost.

He didn't say Lin was the primary reason Houston lost. He said that was the worst defense he's seen played on Paul.

He is pointing out an isolated incident and giving an opinion on it. Stop deflecting blame and accept it.

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