Suns and Bledsoe on the Verge of Irreparable Relationship

[I_Never Lied]

His point, which I agree with, is that PGs in general seem to be able to play their peak game longer than other positions. The rules protect them and they generally are not very physical in their games. I agree the most athletic ones would fall off faster, but I think Dragic at 32 will be pretty close to his peak especially because he will have even more intangibles and experience by then to rely on. PG is a very mental position.

But his point is all wrong. Its the other way around. In the last 5 years the only PG's to play at a high level after 32 are...

Chauncey Billups
Steve Nash
Jason Terry
Andre Miller


That is just Four guys in the last 5 years. So yea, this is not common at all and not something to 'expect' out of a guy like Dragic. Especially to pass up on a dynamic young athlete like Bledsoe.

You can't deny history.

PG only became deep again recently with a new influx of young guys.
Also aren't we talking about up to 32 and not after?
BTW where are..
Kidd
Hinrich
Iverson

And I think Paul, Parker, Calderon and others are holding up pretty well as they hit 30.

It will be interesting to see how this next crop does, but I don't think 32 year old Dragic will be noticeably worse than 28,year old Dragic.

Iverson was 32 in 2007, a long time ago, plus he's a HOF'er. I don't consider Dallas Mavs Kidd 'high level'. He was good at 32-24 in New Jersey but goodness that was a decade ago. We are insulting Kidd/Iverson by mentioning Dragic in the same sentence. Hinrich is trash.

I will bump the living hell out of this thread in 2016. I'm confident that even by then, Dragic will have fallen off something serious.

[I_Never Lied]

Actually contracts in the nba work nothing like the nfl. The contracts are guaranteed, which means you don't get cut. It's why Boozer has been starting for the bulls the last two years.

Dragic doesn't rely on athleticism, where you see shorter peaks and earlier primes. He'll be just fine at 32, in the same way Ginobli was.

And what's Carlos boozer top 10 in over there?

Carlos Boozer is top 10 in DRTG on basketball reference. You cannot rely on those straw-man stats.

Athleticism has nothing to so with it, It is size. Guys under 6'4 do not extend primes past 31-32. Ginobli is 6'6, a HOF and is also straight up a better player than Dragic. This is the main reason why the owners shortened the lengths of contracts. Again please find me some 32 year old PG in their prime. In 4 years Dragic will be Steve Blake, while Bledsoe will still be a MAX contract guy.


You want Steve Blake?

LOL you just pulled that one out of your ass. Show me some statistics that guys under 6'4" have shorter primes. If anything taller players are far more likely to have joint issues and other problems as they get older.

I'd bet anything Dragic plays at a higher level much longer than Bledsoe. His playing style simply ages better.

Explosive PGs like D-Rose, Westbrook, Bledsoe etc have a short shelf life and will in most cases burn out faster than guards in the mold of Dragic, Nash, CP3 that are more skills-based players because their effectiveness is heavily reliant on athleticism, and that is the first thing to go with age.

In the last 10 years, here are the list of players under 6'4 who have averaged at least 20 MPG and 12 PPG after the age of 32

Allen Iverson
Steve Nash
Chauncy Billups
Sam Cassell
Jason Terry
Andre Miller

That is less than ONE guy per year for the past decade who has played at a high level at an advanced age. Its really not that common. I am sorry for you.

[spaceballer]

Bledsoe should just take the qualifying offer and sit the year out. So what if he forfeits his pay, he'll be a free agent next year and get a big contract since he stayed injury free.

There's no guarantee that he'll be injury free if he takes the qualifying offer. He could take the qualifying offer AND get injured. Taking the qualifying offer means he's not allowed to sit out the year, but required to play for the Suns at the below market value of $3.7M during what should be a prime earning year in his career.

When was the last time that a free agent with an injury history chose the Qualifying Offer during a prime earning year instead of taking a long term deal? Even if the long term deal is not as lucrative as he may feel he deserves.

[Malapropism]

In the last 10 years, here are the list of players under 6'4 who have averaged at least 20 MPG and 12 PPG after the age of 32

Allen Iverson
Steve Nash
Chauncy Billups
Sam Cassell
Jason Terry
Andre Miller

That is less than ONE guy per year for the past decade who has played at a high level at an advanced age. Its really not that common. I am sorry for you.

Your list seems off...

I mean, just off the top of my head, I know Kidd should be on there.

[I_Never Lied]

In the last 10 years, here are the list of players under 6'4 who have averaged at least 20 MPG and 12 PPG after the age of 32

Allen Iverson
Steve Nash
Chauncy Billups
Sam Cassell
Jason Terry
Andre Miller

That is less than ONE guy per year for the past decade who has played at a high level at an advanced age. Its really not that common. I am sorry for you.

Your list seems off...

I mean, just off the top of my head, I know Kidd should be on there.

Jason Kidd is not under 6'4. He is taller than Dwyane Wade

[ReasonablySober]

In the last 10 years, here are the list of players under 6'4 who have averaged at least 20 MPG and 12 PPG after the age of 32

Allen Iverson
Steve Nash
Chauncy Billups
Sam Cassell
Jason Terry
Andre Miller

That is less than ONE guy per year for the past decade who has played at a high level at an advanced age. Its really not that common. I am sorry for you.

Your list seems off...

I mean, just off the top of my head, I know Kidd should be on there.

Jason Kidd is not under 6'4. He is taller than Dwyane Wade

Chucky Atkins
Cutino Mobley
David Wesley
Nick Van Exel

Also did it.

[Yuri Vaultin]

Irreparable relationship seems like a lot of hyperbole coming from Bledsoe's agent.

No one else is lining up to offer him a contract. He is one year removed from cooking his knee - he better just suck it up and take the best deal they are offering. If he hadn't got hurt, then I can see a max deal, or close to it going his way - not now.

[Malapropism]

In the last 10 years, here are the list of players under 6'4 who have averaged at least 20 MPG and 12 PPG after the age of 32

Allen Iverson
Steve Nash
Chauncy Billups
Sam Cassell
Jason Terry
Andre Miller

That is less than ONE guy per year for the past decade who has played at a high level at an advanced age. Its really not that common. I am sorry for you.

Your list seems off...

I mean, just off the top of my head, I know Kidd should be on there.

Jason Kidd is not under 6'4. He is taller than Dwyane Wade

He's 6'4.

You're being super arbitrary with your stats. As if that one inch makes a huge difference. It's like those stats the NBA likes to throw around even though they mean absolutely nothing.

[NapoleonII]

He never addressed Tony Parker, who has been 32 since December and just got a major contract or even a guy like Gary Payton who was a 20/8 player from age 31-34.

[I_Never Lied]

Your list seems off...

I mean, just off the top of my head, I know Kidd should be on there.

Jason Kidd is not under 6'4. He is taller than Dwyane Wade

He's 6'4.

You're being super arbitrary with your stats. As if that one inch makes a huge difference. It's like those stats the NBA likes to throw around even though they mean absolutely nothing.

Look at the picture. Kidd is a hell of a lot taller than Deron Williams. Here is how my life goes, I consider someone 6'4 and over tall for a PG. They say John Wall is a big guard, but they never say that about Rose. Where do you draw the line? Either way what I said is true, small guys don't excel past 32, there are exceptions but they are few and far between.

[I_Never Lied]

He never addressed Tony Parker, who has been 32 since December and just got a major contract or even a guy like Gary Payton who was a 20/8 player from age 31-34.

Tony Park turned 32 in May during the WCF. Parker at 31 years old, Popovich only plays him 29 MPG. Imagine if he played Parker the same minutes he played when he was Eric Bledsoe's age?

Gary Payton is a very big 6'4 HOF PG, not Goran.

[I_Never Lied]

Your list seems off...

I mean, just off the top of my head, I know Kidd should be on there.

Jason Kidd is not under 6'4. He is taller than Dwyane Wade

Chucky Atkins
Cutino Mobley
David Wesley
Nick Van Exel

Also did it.

Sweet Jesus, Van Exel? You sure Bob Cousy ain't do it too? Look how far back we have to go to find just a handful of players.

[Lwcasu]

Jose Calderon and Jameer Nelson both, over 32 years old and under 6 foot 4, played big roles last year. I'm positive next year Calderon will be starting and Jameer will be getting at least 20 mpg, while probably getting those 10 points.

[Lwcasu]

And you have guys like Gilbert Arenas and Stephon Marbury who, for all intents and purposes, should still be in the NBA, but had off-court troubles that derailed their careers.

[HyMay]

12 seems fair considering he hasn't been healthy...ever. I

[Malapropism]

Jason Kidd is not under 6'4. He is taller than Dwyane Wade

He's 6'4.

You're being super arbitrary with your stats. As if that one inch makes a huge difference. It's like those stats the NBA likes to throw around even though they mean absolutely nothing.

Look at the picture. Kidd is a hell of a lot taller than Deron Williams. Here is how my life goes, I consider someone 6'4 and over tall for a PG. They say John Wall is a big guard, but they never say that about Rose. Where do you draw the line? Either way what I said is true, small guys don't excel past 32, there are exceptions but they are few and far between.

I'm bemoaning your arbitrary cutoffs.

Must be 32+

Must be under 6'4

Must have averaged 12+ points.

Must have averaged 20+ minutes.

You should be looking at similar players that played similar roles. Lot of players were mentioned in this thread already that maybe don't fit your guidelines 100%.

[ReasonablySober]

Jason Kidd is not under 6'4. He is taller than Dwyane Wade

Chucky Atkins
Cutino Mobley
David Wesley
Nick Van Exel

Also did it.

Sweet Jesus, Van Exel? You sure Bob Cousy ain't do it too? Look how far back we have to go to find just a handful of players.

Far back? I'm only going 10 years back, per your stupid arbitrary guidelines.

[I_Never Lied]

He's 6'4.

You're being super arbitrary with your stats. As if that one inch makes a huge difference. It's like those stats the NBA likes to throw around even though they mean absolutely nothing.

Look at the picture. Kidd is a hell of a lot taller than Deron Williams. Here is how my life goes, I consider someone 6'4 and over tall for a PG. They say John Wall is a big guard, but they never say that about Rose. Where do you draw the line? Either way what I said is true, small guys don't excel past 32, there are exceptions but they are few and far between.

I'm bemoaning your arbitrary cutoffs.

Must be 32+

Must be under 6'4

Must have averaged 12+ points.

Must have averaged 20+ minutes.

You should be looking at similar players that played similar roles. Lot of players were mentioned in this thread already that maybe don't fit your guidelines 100%.

It's really not arbitrary at all if you simply consider where this all started...

Me: Bledsoe is the best player on the team. Give him mo' money.

Unrealistic Hater: Umm no. Dragic is the face of the franchise.

Me: Bledsoe is a better defender and 4 years younger. By the time Bledsoe is Dragic's age, Goran will be Steve Blake and Bledsoe will still be running fast and jumping high.

Unrealistic Hater: You are delusional, Dragic will still be in his prime. Bledsoe should be grateful they even offered him a contract.

Do you actually think Dragic will be as good as he is NOW in 2018? Mind you the only Guards who have produced at Dragic's current level when they were that age, we ALL-TIME GREATS. The 20mpg/12ppg thing was me just being a little flexible.

[bwgood77]

Again please find me some 32 year old PG in their prime.

You want Steve Blake?

Nash was in his prime at 32 (his best year), and still very solid until he was 37. http://www.basketball-reference.com/pla ... hst01.html

Stockton was in his prime at 32 (his best year) and was also extremely solid for years after that. http://www.basketball-reference.com/pla ... kjo01.html

Dragic is just 28 though. So lets say he hits his prime at 32. That's 3-4 more years of improvement, so even if he starts to decline then, he might be 35-36 before he gets back to the level he is right now, which is borderline all star.

He has also only started for two years, so he likely will peak a little later than most point guards as he gains more experience playing with starters and better players.

[NapoleonII]

Your post is the definition of a straw-man.

Of course Dragic will not be as good in 2018, but he's had an excellent/efficient year that few guards have ever had. The all-time greats that put up those stats didn't do it in a vacuum; they weren't "all-time greats" when they were 28.

By your definition, the Spurs are idiots for inking Tony Parker into a multi-year contract, because by your arbitrary stats, he cannot succeed anymore and will only decline to the point of being "Steve Blake."

What you're failing to grasp is that a basketball player's career/impact is as individual as they are. Steve Nash is not an aberration, he's a world-class athlete (without the traditional athleticism or size) that took care of himself, spent years becoming the best shooter and offensive machine of the 2000's. Tony Parker worked his ass-off becoming a decent mid-range shooter, and it will extend his career alongside his drive/floater game.

Dragic is a highly skilled guard (with the best euro-step in the game right now) and just had a healthy year shooting INSANE, "all-time great" percentages. What more do you want?