King of Empty stats

[Yoshun]

Love got stats for sure. Where was his "impact on the team and game" ?? Any numbers to back it up? team wins, playoff success?
Six postseason-less campaigns. A 153-323 record during his tenure here.

Year With Without
2014 51% 20%
2013 50% 34%
2012 44% 18%
2011 23% 0%
2010 20% 14%
2009 30% 0%


Seems like they did better with him...?

Basically you are saying that the team performed worse when a starter down than a healthy team ... and you call that some great impact?

Love's impact of the game should be judged by the games he actually played.. 153-323 is a horrible stat line..but one valid excuse is that they were tanking and Love was forced to suck.

Anyway I predict Anthony Davis will take place Love as the king of empty stats because AD has better stats, more hype, plus he even plays empty defense.

I see what you're saying, but, again, you're ignoring context. You're looking at the seasons he was on the roster and the win total, without taking into consideration all of the other team and individual variables that go into.

Let's start with the 153-323 record. That's 476 games, Love played in 364 games in that time period and only started 282. So you're holding him responsible for a lot of games he didn't even play in and referring to it as "his tenure."

He was a rookie for his first 2 seasons with them, playing less than 30mpg and only starting in 59 games during that period. Some rookies come out and dominate, some need a few seasons to get going. Love needed a couple, and probably should have been starting even before he was.

He was also injured for the first 27 games of the 11-12 season, and for 64 games during the 12-13 season. There were also long term injuries to both Rubio and Kevin Martin.

During his entire tenure there, save for his first season (rookie year) and health, the TWolves were in the positive (by a wide margin) when he was on the court and ran a top 10 offense. You can't expect a player to just will his team to victory. It sounds nice as a narrative, but it's not reality. They had bad teams and a ton of injuries to Love and other players like Rubio, Kevin Martin and Pekovic. There were a TON of factors that contributed to the TWolves' lack of success during the Kevin Love tenure, very few are examples of his lack of impact. The only real argument against Kevin Love during that time was his defense, statistically he was an average to below average defender. On offense though, they were clearly better.

[dhsilv2]

They came from NBA.com in the clutch stats table.

Yep. And more to the point, how were those numbers "not good" if they were better than just about everyone else that year? What more did you want the guy to do? Oh, and the fact that Love did this while being double- and triple-teamed is both Lowe's point and my point.

Again, nobody in this thread has been arguing that Love is an all-time great. People (including me) are pointing out that his stats weren't "empty," that he directly contributed to wins on those absolutely horrible Twolves squads. Frankly, it would have taken a LeBron to will those Twolves teams into the playoffs, and Love was/is not somebody of that caliber. He was/is a damn good player though, and his teams so far have been a lot better thanks to his presence.

Sounds like Lowe just chose a crappy stat. The 82games version which takes in to account scoring in the last 5 minutes of a close game is more representative of a player's ability to help his team close out games.

I agree his stats were not empty, but being able to help your team close games is pretty important.

It's really hard to blame or give credit for end of game value. There aren't that many games in a year and you only get so many plays. I would need a really good case to argue that Love was falling off in those big moments.

NBA.com is well....the offical stats source. And it is the same method as what you listed for 82 games as far as I'm aware.

[dhsilv2]

Year With Without
2014 51% 20%
2013 50% 34%
2012 44% 18%
2011 23% 0%
2010 20% 14%
2009 30% 0%


Seems like they did better with him...?

Basically you are saying that the team performed worse when a starter down than a healthy team ... and you call that some great impact?

Love's impact of the game should be judged by the games he actually played.. 153-323 is a horrible stat line..but one valid excuse is that they were tanking and Love was forced to suck.

Anyway I predict Anthony Davis will take place Love as the king of empty stats because AD has better stats, more hype, plus he even plays empty defense.

I see what you're saying, but, again, you're ignoring context. You're looking at the seasons he was on the roster and the win total, without taking into consideration all of the other team and individual variables that go into.

Let's start with the 153-323 record. That's 476 games, Love played in 364 games in that time period and only started 282. So you're holding him responsible for a lot of games he didn't even play in and referring to it as "his tenure."

He was a rookie for his first 2 seasons with them, playing less than 30mpg and only starting in 59 games during that period. Some rookies come out and dominate, some need a few seasons to get going. Love needed a couple, and probably should have been starting even before he was.

He was also injured for the first 27 games of the 11-12 season, and for 64 games during the 12-13 season. There were also long term injuries to both Rubio and Kevin Martin.

During his entire tenure there, save for his first season (rookie year) and health, the TWolves were in the positive (by a wide margin) when he was on the court and ran a top 10 offense. You can't expect a player to just will his team to victory. It sounds nice as a narrative, but it's not reality. They had bad teams and a ton of injuries to Love and other players like Rubio, Kevin Martin and Pekovic. There were a TON of factors that contributed to the TWolves' lack of success during the Kevin Love tenure, very few are examples of his lack of impact. The only real argument against Kevin Love during that time was his defense, statistically he was an average to below average defender. On offense though, they were clearly better.

Assuming the team record is right

They won 36% of their games with love starting. They won 27% of their games when he didn't.

That's a huge gap and shows clearly that love was contributing to wins in a meaningful way. He isn't Tim Duncan but he was a star impact guy for sure.

[ubernathan]

Corey Maggette. 12 years of high scoring and only made the playoffs once.

[taikibansei]

You still haven't provided a quote where I stated he was responsible for their poor record.

I've done it not once but twice. Here they are again:

But he was also a reason for the Timberwolves always finishing below their expected win total in his time there.

2010-11: Expected W/L 24-58 - actual W/L 17-65
2011-12: Expected W/L 28-38 - actual W/L 26-40
2012-13: Expected W/L 34-48 - actual W/L 31-51
2013-14: Expected W/L 48-34 - actual W/L 40-42

Point differential says they should've won the expected number of games. And in each of the seasons he was the main guy there did they finish below it. Says something about inability to win close games.

And again, you seem to be unique in making "Expected W/L" into an argument against just one player. My favorite bit is how you continually cite Love not taking over in the clutch as "the problem." I again post the Lowe article analyzing the Twolves issues with Love in crunch time:

http://grantland.com/the-triangle/the-question-of-kevin-love/

The more high-profile meltdowns happen on offense, where the normally hard-to-guard Wolves have managed just 87 points per 100 possession on 24-of-76 shooting from the floor, per NBA.com.

Love is not the problem here. He’s 12-of-27 in these situations, with a pile of monster makes — of 31 players who have attempted at least 25 such shots, only LeBron James, Damian Lillard, and Tyreke Evans have hit a higher percentage, per NBA.com. He draws double- and even triple-teams all over the floor in crunch time. The rest of the team is 12-of-49. Rubio is 1-of-5, and two of those attempts came in Minnesota’s first game of the season.

Rubio had a frisky month of games stretching from mid-February through mid-March in which he shot 47 percent and hit an acceptable percentage of shots in the restricted area. He has also emerged as close to an average 3-point shooter, though his raw percentage is a bit misleading. He takes only two triples per 36 minutes, a career low, and he gets those shots because teams don’t bother guarding him.

Rubio’s lack of scoring punch indisputably hurts Minnesota late, which is why Adelman has overplayed Barea in fourth quarters to the frustration of every breathing basketball fan. But with Rubio neutered as a scoring threat, Minnesota has almost no off-the-dribble creator. It has no one who can take the ball from the perimeter into the paint and get buckets. Martin’s off-the-dribble game stops outside the paint and results in brutally tough shots like this.

Somebody else suggested that he didn't like Lowe's use of data in one particular paragraph...ignoring the rest of that long essay. Moreover, and despite numerous statements (including two at the top), nobody in this thread has been able to demonstrate that Love's stats were empty, or that he negatively impacted that horrible team. I will just add this final point. Lowe's observations mirror mine made here:

Still, you needed to watch the games to fully understand the problems. I was actually at this game:
http://www.basketball-reference.com/boxscores/201312220LAC.html
Rubio went for zero (0) points against the Clippers in 39 minutes (while Love went for 45/19/6/1 on 60% shooting against Griffin ) and some Twolves fans (links available if necessary) were blaming the loss on Love/Adelman. Note that the Clippers were double-teaming Love with Rubio's guy--i.e., Rubio was basically being left unguarded (and still couldn't hit a shot). Repeatedly, I watched the Clippers bench actually LAUGH at Rubio for being too scared to/unable to score.

You had to watch those games to truly understand. Love may not be perfect, but he was damn good that season. Calling his stats "empty" or blaming him for the debacle that was the Twolves is silly.

[taikibansei]

Just to add a more recent article:

Only one player was in the top 10 in minutes played for both the 2013-14 Timberwolves and this year’s Wolves: Rubio. He was tied for second in 2013-14 at 32.2 minutes per game. He’s fifth this season at 31.1 minutes per game. Otherwise, the rosters are almost entirely different. Only Shabazz Muhammad and Gorgui Dieng, two lightly used rookies in 2013-14, remain on the active roster from that year to this one.

Rubio isn’t on the floor for every clutch minute, but as the team’s starting point guard he’s out there more often than not.

And frankly, end of game situations are where his style of play causes the offense to bog down. Rubio’s best offensive attributes — a great feel for passing and an ability to set teammates up for open shots, particularly in open-court situations — are great during the first 42-44 minutes of a game.

Crunch time on offense often requires a player to beat his man off the dribble to score or dish for a good look — or to pull up and make a tough shot. Those are not Rubio’s strengths, and the Wolves have often struggled to get good shots (and therefore score) in the clutch as a result.

Look at 2013-14: their offensive rating — a measure of offensive efficiency — in crunch time was 100.7, which was 22nd in the NBA. For the season as a whole, it was 108.9, which was 9th in the NBA.

Same goes for 2016-17: their offensive rating in clutch situations is a dismal 92.7, which is 26th in the league. Overall it’s 108.8, which is 12th in the NBA.

(Additional fuel: in 2014-15, when Rubio played just 22 games, the Wolves finished 7th in the NBA in clutch offensive rating. Last year, with Rubio playing 76 games, they dropped to 22nd).

In their most recent loss this weekend to Utah — their fourth in a row, all of which were decided in the final three minutes — the Wolves led 92-85 with 3:35 left. They didn’t score the rest of the way in a 94-92 loss. Their empty possessions included a turnover on a bad pass by Rubio, plus long missed 2-pointers by Andrew Wiggins, Gorgui Dieng and Zach LaVine.

To mitigate this deficiency, the Wolves sometimes put the ball in the hands of LaVine or Wiggins in end of game situations. Both are capable of scoring in a number of ways, but neither is a great passer. If one of them develops better end-of-game skills, it would take some pressure off Rubio. But it’s not crazy to think rookie point guard Kris Dunn could also start to see more crunch time minutes.

http://www.startribune.com/common-denominators-in-wolves-clutch-failures-ricky-rubio-and-bad-defense/410144195/

While I don't agree with the article entirely--he too cites expected win-loss as a core reason for his complaints despite the fact that his own analysis explains the gap*--his game observations are similar to my own. More to the point, the issues continued--actually worsened--after Love left, with Rubio's crunch time performance the sole constant.

* By this, I mean where this guy describes how Rubio's freewheeling play style and amazing abilities (I love Rubio's passes) enabled him to excel in games that were not close. (Indeed, I would argue that Rubio was a key factor in making them blowouts.) Against the better teams--particularly when those teams started slowing things down and double- or triple-teaming Love down low--is when Rubio's inability to hit an outside shot killed that team. In other words, many times they would either kill a team...or lose a close game. Hence, the discrepancy.

[Djh7475]

Andrew Wiggins and KAT are both in this category for now, but if Thibs finds a way to improve their defense it won’t last. Derozan always puts up great numbers, but he doesn’t space the floor and is a bit of a ball stopper that doesn’t defend. Brook Lopez has always been an empty stat star. Kevin Love has always put up great numbers that didn’t necessarily elevate his team’s play. David Lee in his prime fits. Cousins is a great example as well, and IT actually fits other than his time in Boston.

On the other end of the spectrum, Andre Iguodala, Draymond Green, Marcus Smart, Tony Allen and to a lesser extent Al Horford, Paul Milsapp, Amir Johnson (in his prime), and Chris Bosh a few years ago are guys whose stat-lines come nowhere close to explaining their impact on their team. Some of those guys are former allstars that still seem to get underrated by casual fans, Tony Allen and Amir in their prime could singlehandedly bring a defensive toughness and culture to a franchise. Smart is the weirdest of the bunch as he helps his teams on both ends despite being one of the worst scorers in NBA history. His elite defense and otherworldly intangibles (motor, toughness, leadership, clutch gene, etc.) make him a proven winner despite regularly putting out unsightly box scores.

[HoopsMalone]

The 2012-2013 season the entire Timberwolves team got hurt. Love, Rubio, Brandon Roy, Kirilenko, budigner, pekovic etc. They missed more games due to injury than nearly any team in NBA history.

It was absolutely ridiculous... i had $6,000 on their over/under. I flew to Vegas and started betting it at 39, back then only one casino chain offered NBA over/under season totals and it was $1,000 max... by the time i left it was at 42.5.

Crazy how much attention the NBA has garnered in just a couple of seasons. It was still an afterthought in the sports gambling world at the time.

Anyway, that was one of the worst gambling losses I've ever taken in the NBA. That team was primed to win 48-50 games until Love broke his freaking hand doing pushups on his knuckles in the preseason.

[GreatWhiteStiff]

Love always had a massive positive plus minus for minnesota and whenever he sat they'd get destroyed. That's my idea of an opposite of empty stats guy, and he's maligned because they were terrible when he was on the bench, they'd get destroyed, lose games, and he became an empty stats guy unable to lead his bad team when he rested. OK.

[JunkYardDog6ix]

I find it hilarious people are arguing Kevin Love is not the king of empty stats by bringing up MORE STATS

Amazing.

[RGM_SU]

Sounds like Lowe just chose a crappy stat. The 82games version which takes in to account scoring in the last 5 minutes of a close game is more representative of a player's ability to help his team close out games.

Looked it up on basketball-reference, Kevin Love in 2013-14, score is within 5 points with 5 minutes or less left in 4th quarter / OT:

31/87 FG (35.6%), 12/38 3P (31.6%)

You still haven't provided a quote where I stated he was responsible for their poor record.

I've done it not once but twice. Here they are again:

But he was also a reason for the Timberwolves always finishing below their expected win total in his time there.

That's laughable, if you think he would have gone 82-0 with better teammates and he had 0, none, niente, nada responsibility for the T'Wolves inability to close out games in the 4th quarter then so be it.

[7 Footer]

Cousins and Devin Booker

[Grits n Gravy]

The 2012-2013 season the entire Timberwolves team got hurt. Love, Rubio, Brandon Roy, Kirilenko, budigner, pekovic etc. They missed more games due to injury than nearly any team in NBA history.

It was absolutely ridiculous... i had $6,000 on their over/under. I flew to Vegas and started betting it at 39, back then only one casino chain offered NBA over/under season totals and it was $1,000 max... by the time i left it was at 42.5.

Crazy how much attention the NBA has garnered in just a couple of seasons. It was still an afterthought in the sports gambling world at the time.

Anyway, that was one of the worst gambling losses I've ever taken in the NBA. That team was primed to win 48-50 games until Love broke his freaking hand doing pushups on his knuckles in the preseason.

Dam man you don't mess around, that's crazy.

[LarsV8]

Iverson, Westbrook, Dalembert, Francis

[Young_Star11]

Don't even get me started on the guy who won MVP in 2016/17.

Often this moniker is tied to big numbers on a losing team. So a lot of really good players could be in this thread.

[Baseline Runner]

This has got to be Westbrook or Cousins in today's NBA. Being king in this category means putting up big numbers. I don't think a player that isn't considered to be in the top 25 would be qualified. Among the top 25 players those two stand out.

[Ryoga Hibiki]

That team starting Tarik Black, Joey Dorsey, Marcus Thorton, Jason Terry and had Corey **** Brewer as the first man off the bench. Yes Harden had various issues with the team and especially with Dwight, but without him dragging those guys all season long playing 82 games, that Houston team would be straight up lottery.

29ppg can be a DeRozan, but along with 7.5 apg you have to seriously hate the guy to call it empty stats.

The whole point of empty stats is that they look much greater than the actual impact of the player on the floor.
In this case Harden's were historically great, scoring with efficiency while filling up the rest of stat sheet.
But he was not close to that, because of his attitude of defence, his continuously stopping the ball and his playing to protect his own efficiency, often pounding the ball for several seconds and then serving a guarded teammate for bailout shot.

[Alex_De_Large]

Tyreke Evans

[JonFromVA]

Sounds like Lowe just chose a crappy stat. The 82games version which takes in to account scoring in the last 5 minutes of a close game is more representative of a player's ability to help his team close out games.

Looked it up on basketball-reference, Kevin Love in 2013-14, score is within 5 points with 5 minutes or less left in 4th quarter / OT:

31/87 FG (35.6%), 12/38 3P (31.6%)

Yep, that agrees with 82games. It's just not good unless he was going to the line a ton, but his teammates were even worse.

If he's the best finisher on your team, you're going to struggle to finish games. It's as simple as that.

[JonFromVA]

Yep. And more to the point, how were those numbers "not good" if they were better than just about everyone else that year? What more did you want the guy to do? Oh, and the fact that Love did this while being double- and triple-teamed is both Lowe's point and my point.

Again, nobody in this thread has been arguing that Love is an all-time great. People (including me) are pointing out that his stats weren't "empty," that he directly contributed to wins on those absolutely horrible Twolves squads. Frankly, it would have taken a LeBron to will those Twolves teams into the playoffs, and Love was/is not somebody of that caliber. He was/is a damn good player though, and his teams so far have been a lot better thanks to his presence.

Sounds like Lowe just chose a crappy stat. The 82games version which takes in to account scoring in the last 5 minutes of a close game is more representative of a player's ability to help his team close out games.

I agree his stats were not empty, but being able to help your team close games is pretty important.

It's really hard to blame or give credit for end of game value. There aren't that many games in a year and you only get so many plays. I would need a really good case to argue that Love was falling off in those big moments.

NBA.com is well....the offical stats source. And it is the same method as what you listed for 82 games as far as I'm aware.

Clearly not the same stat (or it was partial season) as RGM_SU demonstrated Love had far more clutch time shot attempts using the 5-minute method. And I don't find it hard at all to draw conclusions. It's very obvious which players step-up in important parts of games and which ones don't.

And please understand the nit I'm picking here because Kevin clutch time numbers are not all bad. Compared to his peers, he comes out ahead of many of them. For instance, Blake Griffin's shooting efficiency (30.3 eFG%) was putrid in the clutch last year, but I wouldn't label him a superstar either.