Pippen on First Take about Jordan vs Lebron

[Zeitgeister]

The argument will end the same every time. MJ fans will point to his 6 rings and unblemished Finals record, and cite things like "closing" ability. LBJ fans will point to his numbers, longevity, overall dominance on the court. Rinse and repeat.

Both are great, both very different players in terms of style, both right up there in the all time top 5-10 players no matter your personal bias.

The unblemished finals record is stupid. Speaking purely hypothetical a star player who goes 2-0 in the finals, all other things equal, is less accomplished than a player who goes 2-3 in the finals... Making the finals as the lead guy is an accomplishment.

Except he has 6, not 2. 6-0 is better than 3-5 every day of the week sorry

Pippen is 6-0 too so Pippen = Jordan?

[Zeitgeister]

MJ vs Lebron is a debate but forget about it for a moment.

'Era with less defense' is an absolutely false statement.Team's defense has evolved unquestionably since the 90's.Pistons ran 2 to 3 defensive systems, at most. This era Spurs, have had a defensive system for each possiple possesion.

Life evolves.Technology evolves.The game evolves.

All well and good, but players today have simply been stripped of the tools to play what has always been considered effective defense.

Basketball is way more fun to watch on a given day than it was in 2005 or 1995, and maybe that means its better, depending on what you value. This idea that defenses are so much better today is just a myth, though. Evolution often doesn't follow a linear path.

In a sense individual players have been stripped of tools they had in the 90s. But team defense in the 90s was highly constricted by the illegal defense rules. Defenses are way more complex today, with a huge variety of defensive schemes and strategies. Multiple star players were against the removing illegal defense, saying that would negatively impact high scorers

There was one particular star player that was against removing illegal defense, his name was Michael Jordan. He thought it would make it harder for superstars to take over games.

[Hindenburg]

LeBron is on the outside of the top and that's being generous

[twoheadedboy]

If we're talking 'legacy' I don't think anyone will ever pass Jordan.

But, if you were to build the perfect basketball player, (size/skill/iq/speed/etc.) I think Lebron is as close as you can get.

[Fencer reregistered]

its a comma splice or run on sentence if I left it as is.

Perhaps not the ideal way to phrase a grammar correction.

[711takeover]

The unblemished finals record is stupid. Speaking purely hypothetical a star player who goes 2-0 in the finals, all other things equal, is less accomplished than a player who goes 2-3 in the finals... Making the finals as the lead guy is an accomplishment.

Except he has 6, not 2. 6-0 is better than 3-5 every day of the week sorry

Pippen is 6-0 too so Pippen = Jordan?

No dumba$$... rings isn't the only argument but it damn sure helps when comparing two similar players. If rings only matter Robert Horry would be a top 5 player.

S3 - Do not insult other posters.

[Potedon]

You do realize he could have won more rings if he didn't retire after winning the championship in 98? If Lebron wants to be crowned GOAT he has to win more than 3 rings.

You do realize that Jordan quitting is a negative right? Never had the mental fortitude to withstand the NBA grind like LeBron can.

Lol Jordan as a quitter ok. Thanks for the daily laugh!

Jordan himself said he was mentally exhausted. Couldn't stand up to the rigors of the NBA for more than 9 years. LeBron going on 15, GOAT!

[pwrshft99]

You do realize that Jordan quitting is a negative right? Never had the mental fortitude to withstand the NBA grind like LeBron can.

Lol Jordan as a quitter ok. Thanks for the daily laugh!

Jordan himself said he was mentally exhausted. Couldn't stand up to the rigors of the NBA for more than 9 years. LeBron going on 15, GOAT!

If you can't give someone a pass after their parent/best friend was murdered, there's not much to discuss. Ive seen people say Jordan quit a million times and it really is an insult. Lose someone close to you, see where your priorities lye.

[LivingLegend]

If we're talking 'legacy' I don't think anyone will ever pass Jordan.

But, if you were to build the perfect basketball player, (size/skill/iq/speed/etc.) I think Lebron is as close as you can get.

So your saying if the 90s wernt a dead era of basketball that needs to be remembered somehow then LeBron is obviously, clearly, the best basketball player ever given statistics.

It makes no sense to say 'well LeBron by stats is the best player ever, but Im going to give him top 3 just to preserve a horrific decade of basketball competitiveness'

[levon]

Pippen is 6-0 too so Pippen = Jordan?

No dumba$$... rings isn't the only argument but it damn sure helps when comparing two similar players. If rings only matter Robert Horry would be a top 5 player.

Haven't come across a stupider argument: "but but robert horry has 7 does that mean goat?" Like are you 6 years old? Variables are allowed to interact.

Do not insult other posters like this. Attack the argument, not the poster.

[Potedon]

Lol Jordan as a quitter ok. Thanks for the daily laugh!

Jordan himself said he was mentally exhausted. Couldn't stand up to the rigors of the NBA for more than 9 years. LeBron going on 15, GOAT!

If you can't give someone a pass after their parent/best friend was murdered, there's not much to discuss. Ive seen people say Jordan quit a million times and it really is an insult. Lose someone close to you, see where your priorities lye.

The thing is, he was already mulling retirement before his fathers death, that event might have pushed him over the edge, but he alluded to early retirements before his dad was killed. Also, plenty of other players have had someone close to them die and play on.

[Zeitgeister]

Except he has 6, not 2. 6-0 is better than 3-5 every day of the week sorry

Pippen is 6-0 too so Pippen = Jordan?

No dumba$$... rings isn't the only argument but it damn sure helps when comparing two similar players. If rings only matter Robert Horry would be a top 5 player.

Oh so you're saying context is important? You guys can't have it both ways. You can't say "Michael is 6-0 therefore he is the best" while failing to acknowledge the context in which LeBron has lost in the finals.

The 90s were an unquestionably watered down league with the Celtics, Lakers, Detroit, and 76ers in decline, the international market barely beginning to take shape and six expansion teams between when Jordan was drafted and when he won his last championship. The Bulls were by far the best team in the 90s. Jordan never had to face a team like Golden State and he's never had a finals performance like LeBron did in 2016 beating the greatest regular season team of all-time. LeBron should be held accountable for such a poor finals performance in 2011 but the Mavericks were still a very good team and so were both Spurs teams he lost to.

[freestyler34]

Even Lebron wanted to be like Mike, wearing 23 since high school, You can never be better than the person you tried to copy.

[PhilBlackson]

I do think Jordan is the GOAT to be clear.

But the ONLY clear Finals I hold against LeBron is hit it Skip Bayless..."when the Chosen One became the Frozen One". That was probably the worst meltdown I've ever seen of a player of that caliber. But I don't fault him for getting spanked as a kid with Mo Williams and Co against a prime Duncan, Manu & Parker, then again a Spurs team that had one of THE best team performances of all time with all of Duncan, Manu, Parker AND Kawhi and then of course what the hell was he supposed to with Delly vs the Warriors or now the GS Dream Team?!

Everyone one of those teams was BY FAR imo much better than any of the teams Jordan beat and I say that as someone who grew up as a MJ homer, all the shoes, Bulls gear etc (til my city got a franchise). It's no one's fault. The teams simply were not as good as today's teams and unfortunately for LeBron it's just almost impossible to argue with perfection unless he hadn't had that garbage Mavs performance and possibly won the 2nd meeting with the Spurs in the Finals because the other Finals' losses I think it's just ridiculous to EXPECT him to beat what seems like impossible odds.

NEVER did Jordan go into a Finals seemingly facing impossible odds, LeBron has done so at least 3x (Spurs 1st rd, GS 1st & 3rd)...the Bulls were ALWAYS the favorites. So had LeBron's record been the other way around (5-3) I would have said he has legit argument as GOAT, the Mavs kinda put the nail in the coffin on the discussion though imo unfortunately.

[nikster]

Game has evolved to favor the offensive end tremendously. All these extreme offensive outbursts, especially from perimeter players would not be possible 20 years ago.

How can you argue these outbursts are based on changes in team defense, and not the increased reliance on 3 point shooting? For example, when Terrence Ross went off for 50 points he made 10 3 pointers. It would be unheard of to even attempt that many in the 90s

Really? Then why did Brian Shaw do it in 1993?
https://www.basketball-reference.com/boxscores/199304080MIL.html

Joe Dumars in 1994.
https://www.basketball-reference.com/boxscores/199411080DET.html

George McCloud in 1995
https://www.basketball-reference.com/boxscores/199512160DAL.html

Dennis Scott hit 8 or 9 on multiple occasions.

But keep pushing the narrative that no one ever shot a 3 pointer before 2000.

I was exaggerating but my point stands.
In an entire decade (90s), 10 3s in a game was accomplished 4 times.

Since 2010, that marks been hit 17 times

[Oscirus]

Jordan wasn't the one who bought superteam formations into the game. That was all Lebron. Therefore Jordan>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>Lerbon

[twoheadedboy]

If we're talking 'legacy' I don't think anyone will ever pass Jordan.

But, if you were to build the perfect basketball player, (size/skill/iq/speed/etc.) I think Lebron is as close as you can get.

So your saying if the 90s wernt a dead era of basketball that needs to be remembered somehow then LeBron is obviously, clearly, the best basketball player ever given statistics.

It makes no sense to say 'well LeBron by stats is the best player ever, but Im going to give him top 3 just to preserve a horrific decade of basketball competitiveness'

I never mentioned stats lol. I just said that Lebron has all the physical tools and talent to be the GOAT, but there are other factors that people take into account.

Much like the MVP argument, I think people just have different definitions of what it means to be the GOAT. I can definitely see the argument for Lebron - just like I see the arguments for KAJ and Russell - but for me it's still Jordan.

[BeatDaCavs420]

This debate just makes me ill every time I see it

Even more so when people say Lebron is better

[Ainosterhaspie]

Jordan wasn't the one who bought superteam formations into the game. That was all Lebron. Therefore Jordan>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>Lerbon

So you've never heard of Bird's Celtics, Showtime Lakers, Russell Celtics, Pierce/Garnett/Allen Celtics, Kobe/Shaq/Malone/Payton Lakers, Malone/Dr J Sixers, Jordan/Pippen/Rodman Bulls... LeBron bought super team formations to the game.

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[Oscirus]

Jordan wasn't the one who bought superteam formations into the game. That was all Lebron. Therefore Jordan>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>Lerbon

So you've never heard of Bird's Celtics, Showtime Lakers, Russell Celtics, Pierce/Garnett/Allen Celtics, Kobe/Shaq/Malone/Payton Lakers, Malone/Dr J Sixers, Jordan/Pippen/Rodman Bulls... LeBron bought super team formations to the game.

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And which of those plotted with their boys to form a super team?
There's a difference between having a good front office and a player being a bitch that has to run to her friends to form a super team because she can't get the job done on her own