Is there a reasonable argument that MJ was actually better at basketball than LeBron?

[X_O_Z]

Arguments for LeBron:

Highest box and non-box statistical peak in a much, much more internationally competitive and sophisticated era against superior athletes and teams who actually mathematically understand how to play basketball

Far superior versatility and longevity


"Arguments" for MJ:

Romanticized sociopathy

Scored a lot of points (on worse efficiency even adjusted for era) on impossibly stacked teams against Kurt Rambis and John Stockton with the greatest coach ever while sticking his tongue out and being "feared"


I have no doubt whatsoever that Kawhi could have three-peated twice in MJ's situation.

Since you are so mesmorize with Lebron, than if you were an owner, which player would you pick to help you be successful.

LETS START

1. First player: this player only wants to win and does not back down from a challenge. Will remain with your team for the majority of his career. He will work hard no matter the type of players you have him playing with. Will mold a potential prospect into a superstar with winning mentality like him. He will have scoring titles, championships, etc...

2. Second player: he comes with total package other than scoring. He has longetivity and wants to be the best player ever. His legacy is very important and wants to win now with players that he believes will help him win. Your margin of error has to be very small or else you risk of losing him for a different team. Championships is a question mark only due to your ability to assign him with a All star or two.


Now of course if you read it this way, than maby you will be choosing player one. Player one is MJ obviously and he will make you successful in the long run. Lebron will be demanding a team that he sees fit and if you can't get him some all star players to match his gameplay, you will get the "I can't play defense Lebron" when he knows he is on a average team and will be wanting to leave when his contract is up. This what really sperate the GOAT. MJ is a superior player, but also loyalty in which you will not have to worry much since MJ loves competition vs Lebron who loves his own legacy. Legacy or championships?

[Jonny Blaze]

Its still insane to me that everyone on planet Earth trims the fat of MJs career and only ever focus on the center cut prime 6 year run.

LeBron is currently in his 'Wizards' era of his career and he is still, without a doubt, the best player in this league.

When MJ was 22 years old he was getting bounced in the first round of the playoffs. When LeBron was 22 years old he was dragging Drew Gooden and Sasha Pavlovic to the NBA Finals.

What a hilariously disingenuous argument.

The only reason why 22 year old LeBron wasn't being bounced in the 1st round is because the Eastern conference was so vapid that even those "just getting good" Cleveland teams could advance to the finals. Yeah...22 year old MJ got bounced in the 1st round...by ****ing Larry Bird and the Boston Celtics, and the Detroit Pistons with a HOF Zeke Thomas. Need we bring up that MJ averaged 44 ppg against the Celtics; playing alongside who exactly? They simply weren't ready to battle teams that were literal dynasties, big deal. LeBron's only competition in the East for years was Demar Derozan's Raptors. You are comparing apples to hot dogs.

Both guys get the obvious leeway of the fact that as being young stars on teams that were previously horrendous, there is an expected initial stage in the "rising period" wherein the young star finally takes the team to the playoffs, but lacks playoff experience and the rest of the team still isn't good enough to actually contend against a good team. This is the case with virtually every young star who actually succeeds in turning around a bad team. The only difference is that when LeBron was in this "stage" the East was so pathetically bad that even with Drew Gooden and Sasha Pavlovic he was able to advance. You're telling me that 22 year old LeBron beats Bird and the Celtics? Ooookay.

Also, how in the hell is LeBron in the Wizards era of his career? He is 35 years old...Jordan was 40 when he was playing with the Wizards. There is a huge difference in 35 vs. 40. LeBron has also played in the softest era of NBA basketball in decades; which means that he has avoided punishment his entire career...hence why he has been able to age gracefully.

I think your missing the point that back in the early 2000s, the East wasnt weak and he had to beat teams with multiple AllStars/HOFers to get to the Finals. The East became weak in 2010 when he went to the Heat and the Celtics shortly after were disbanded. Those Pistons teams with Chauncy/RIP/Sheed/Prince/Ben was no joke. And LeBron beat them practically single handedly

What are you talking about? The East was horrible in the 2000's.

The 2002 &03 Nets, and the 2007 Cavs would not have made it out of the first round if they were in the Western Conference.

[JordansBulls]

Well Lebron lost with HCA to Dwight Howard and also Dirk and also won 2 bronze medals for America. Had to form two superteams and hop from team to team choosing his star teammates. Now is with another top 5 player who is having the best stats on the squad.

[mtron32]

People will always say Jordan but I'd take LeBron, LeBron is faster,stronger,and has better court-vision. I was never wowed away by anything Jordan did, LeBron is showtime.

because you were hiding your eyes while he was doing things to your Knicks

[Jonny Blaze]

Every team Jordan beat in the Finals was better than 2011 Mavericks. Like literally, there are six teams who would have been NBA champs right now if they had just existed in the 2010-2011 season.

Nice troll thread though.

Mavs continue to be underrated

4-0 against the 2x defending NBA Champion Lakers with Kobe, Gasol
4-1 against Kevin Durant, Russel Westbrook, Serge Ibaka and James Harden
4-2 against Lebron, Wade, Bosh
(Miami two wins are by 2 points, and 8 points) ( Mavs wins are by 10, 9, 3, 2, if you add regular season the Mavs two wins are 2 points and 11 points. Meaning the Mavs beat the Miami Heat 6 out of 8 times they played them with three of the game being decided by more than 9 points. Mavs also beat the 2011 Heat 3 out of 4 times on their homecourt.)

Almost every week on this website I get to hear that the 2011 Mavs....this NBA championship squad that was the absolute super team killer is somehow this chitty, average ass basketball team that got lucky to beat Lebron, and would get beat by any NBA Final's teams in the 1990's.

This team that destroyed super teams led by some of the best players in NBA history is going to lose to runner up teams from the 90's with much less talent.....okay

[BarbaGrizz]

People will always say Jordan but I'd take LeBron, LeBron is faster,stronger,and has better court-vision. I was never wowed away by anything Jordan did, LeBron is showtime.

Fixed.

[twyzted]

Jordan stans throw around 6-0 like it implies he never lost. He played like 15 damn season lmfaoooooo

Did more in less time than lbj.

Jordans the better shooter and scorer.
Jordans more accomplished.
Jordans a much bigger winner.

And so on. Check mate

The "bigger winner" that couldn't leave round 1 without Pippen. People say Lebron couldn't win a championship without a star, Jordan could barely win playoff games.

Absolutely not a better shooter, he had no range and begged the league to bring the 3 point line closer.

Lebron beating the 73-9 Warriors down 3-1 >>> Jordan winning championships on part time Pepsi factory employees

Lebron beating everyone from his era: Steph, KD, Kawhi, Duncan

MJ never beating: Bird, Magic, Pistons until they were washed up

Lebron > 90s Tim Hardaway Jr with male pattern baldness

except for Dirk who was older than pistons and the lakers. With an even older supporting cast vs the not 1 not 2....not 7 Heat were the GOAT candidate got outplayed by a 33 year old Jason Terry and jj barea that is the most EPIC choke by a star player in all of sports history then got sent back to cleveland by a 37 year old duncan, 36 year old ginobili and 32 year old Parker all older than the pistons and lakers.

[BigBoss23]

Jordan stans throw around 6-0 like it implies he never lost. He played like 15 damn season lmfaoooooo

Did more in less time than lbj.

Jordans the better shooter and scorer.
Jordans more accomplished.
Jordans a much bigger winner.

And so on. Check mate

The "bigger winner" that couldn't leave round 1 without Pippen. People say Lebron couldn't win a championship without a star, Jordan could barely win playoff games.

Absolutely not a better shooter, he had no range and begged the league to bring the 3 point line closer.

Lebron beating the 73-9 Warriors down 3-1 >>> Jordan winning championships on part time Pepsi factory employees

Lebron beating everyone from his era: Steph, KD, Kawhi, Duncan

MJ never beating: Bird, Magic, Pistons until they were washed up

Lebron > 90s Tim Hardaway Jr with male pattern baldness

Lol lebron the better shooter? Hahaaha

Jordan was never left wide open for shats as a defensive strategy

[stormi]

Did more in less time than lbj.

Jordans the better shooter and scorer.
Jordans more accomplished.
Jordans a much bigger winner.

And so on. Check mate

The "bigger winner" that couldn't leave round 1 without Pippen. People say Lebron couldn't win a championship without a star, Jordan could barely win playoff games.

Absolutely not a better shooter, he had no range and begged the league to bring the 3 point line closer.

Lebron beating the 73-9 Warriors down 3-1 >>> Jordan winning championships on part time Pepsi factory employees

Lebron beating everyone from his era: Steph, KD, Kawhi, Duncan

MJ never beating: Bird, Magic, Pistons until they were washed up

Lebron > 90s Tim Hardaway Jr with male pattern baldness

except for Dirk who was older than pistons and the lakers. With an even older supporting cast vs the not 1 not 2....not 7 Heat were the GOAT candidate got outplayed by a 33 year old Jason Terry and jj barea that is the most EPIC choke by a star player in all of sports history then got sent back to cleveland by a 37 year old duncan, 36 year old ginobili and 32 year old Parker all older than the pistons and lakers.

DIrk isn't an ATG from this era, a slot below Durant, Kawhi and Steph. But he and those Mavs are leagues better than the .500 Cavs led by Larry Nance and Mark Price that bounced Air Slot Machine in a 5 game first round

[TOStateofMind]

I mean if your main argument for Lebron is he had it so tough! MJ had it easier! you ready lost lol

Meanwhile MJs team success and individual accolades speaks for itself.

[stormi]

Did more in less time than lbj.

Jordans the better shooter and scorer.
Jordans more accomplished.
Jordans a much bigger winner.

And so on. Check mate

The "bigger winner" that couldn't leave round 1 without Pippen. People say Lebron couldn't win a championship without a star, Jordan could barely win playoff games.

Absolutely not a better shooter, he had no range and begged the league to bring the 3 point line closer.

Lebron beating the 73-9 Warriors down 3-1 >>> Jordan winning championships on part time Pepsi factory employees

Lebron beating everyone from his era: Steph, KD, Kawhi, Duncan

MJ never beating: Bird, Magic, Pistons until they were washed up

Lebron > 90s Tim Hardaway Jr with male pattern baldness

Lol lebron the better shooter? Hahaaha

Jordan was never left wide open for shats as a defensive strategy

Jordan went full seasons shooting 13 and 17% from 3. He's a foul line jumper specialist and there's nothing wrong with that.

[zimpy27]

There are a few reasonable arguments for either guy being the best ever. But it's unreasonable to come to an exact answer.

[BigBoss23]

The "bigger winner" that couldn't leave round 1 without Pippen. People say Lebron couldn't win a championship without a star, Jordan could barely win playoff games.

Absolutely not a better shooter, he had no range and begged the league to bring the 3 point line closer.

Lebron beating the 73-9 Warriors down 3-1 >>> Jordan winning championships on part time Pepsi factory employees

Lebron beating everyone from his era: Steph, KD, Kawhi, Duncan

MJ never beating: Bird, Magic, Pistons until they were washed up

Lebron > 90s Tim Hardaway Jr with male pattern baldness

Lol lebron the better shooter? Hahaaha

Jordan was never left wide open for shats as a defensive strategy

Jordan went full seasons shooting 13 and 17% from 3. He's a foul line jumper specialist and there's nothing wrong with that.

Lol and lbj is a career 70% ft shooter who routinely gets left open for jump shots, something that teams certainly didnt use against Jordan.

[Jonny Blaze]

The "bigger winner" that couldn't leave round 1 without Pippen. People say Lebron couldn't win a championship without a star, Jordan could barely win playoff games.

Absolutely not a better shooter, he had no range and begged the league to bring the 3 point line closer.

Lebron beating the 73-9 Warriors down 3-1 >>> Jordan winning championships on part time Pepsi factory employees

Lebron beating everyone from his era: Steph, KD, Kawhi, Duncan

MJ never beating: Bird, Magic, Pistons until they were washed up

Lebron > 90s Tim Hardaway Jr with male pattern baldness

except for Dirk who was older than pistons and the lakers. With an even older supporting cast vs the not 1 not 2....not 7 Heat were the GOAT candidate got outplayed by a 33 year old Jason Terry and jj barea that is the most EPIC choke by a star player in all of sports history then got sent back to cleveland by a 37 year old duncan, 36 year old ginobili and 32 year old Parker all older than the pistons and lakers.

DIrk isn't an ATG from this era, a slot below Durant, Kawhi and Steph. But he and those Mavs are leagues better than the .500 Cavs led by Larry Nance and Mark Price that bounced Air Slot Machine in a 5 game first round

Lebron James was the 5th best player in the 2011 NBA Finals behind Dirk, Dwayne Wade, Jason Terry and Chris Bosh.

Was there ever a playoff series that Michael Jordan played in where he was not the best player? and that includes the series against one the greatest teams of all time in 1986 Celtics.

You are out of your mind if you don't think Dirk is an all time great player. With the exception of Shaq, Dirk beat every other comparable superstar in the post season at least once and that includes defeating
Lebron, Kobe, Durant, Tim Duncan (2x without HCA), Kevin Garnett, Steve Nash

I count 10 MVP's among those players I just listed, and that is not including Russel Westbrook, Dwayne Wade, or James Harden.

[stormi]

Lol lebron the better shooter? Hahaaha

Jordan was never left wide open for shats as a defensive strategy

Jordan went full seasons shooting 13 and 17% from 3. He's a foul line jumper specialist and there's nothing wrong with that.

Lol and lbj is a career 70% ft shooter who routinely gets left open for jump shots, something that teams certainly didnt use against Jordan.

That's an anecdotal rebuttal which holds no weight, sorry. What isn't anecdotal is Jordan shooting 13.2% from deep years into his career. He's a good shooter, in the same way Derozan is. He wouldn't dare step out to the logo to shoot 3's like Lebron. Honestly if you put Marcus Smart on those Bulls teams he'd probably be doing all of the same things.

[stormi]

except for Dirk who was older than pistons and the lakers. With an even older supporting cast vs the not 1 not 2....not 7 Heat were the GOAT candidate got outplayed by a 33 year old Jason Terry and jj barea that is the most EPIC choke by a star player in all of sports history then got sent back to cleveland by a 37 year old duncan, 36 year old ginobili and 32 year old Parker all older than the pistons and lakers.

DIrk isn't an ATG from this era, a slot below Durant, Kawhi and Steph. But he and those Mavs are leagues better than the .500 Cavs led by Larry Nance and Mark Price that bounced Air Slot Machine in a 5 game first round

Lebron James was the 5th best player in the 2011 NBA Finals behind Dirk, Dwayne Wade, Jason Terry and Chris Bosh.

Was there ever a playoff series that Michael Jordan played in where he was not the best player? and that includes the series against one the greatest teams of all time in 1986 Celtics.

You are out of your mind if you don't think Dirk is an all time great player. With the exception of Shaq, Dirk beat every other comparable superstar in the post season at least once and that includes defeating
Lebron, Kobe, Durant, Tim Duncan (2x without HCA), Kevin Garnett, Steve Nash

I count 10 MVP's among those players I just listed, and that is not including Russel Westbrook, Dwayne Wade, or James Harden.

Again you typed a lot to not really make a point. Lebron had a bad series in 2011, nobody will deny that, just like Jordan being swept in round 1 countless times and not being able to win a playoff round until he was surrounded by stars won't stop him from being an all time great. He's just not Lebron.

[TheGOATRises007]

The "bigger winner" that couldn't leave round 1 without Pippen. People say Lebron couldn't win a championship without a star, Jordan could barely win playoff games.

Absolutely not a better shooter, he had no range and begged the league to bring the 3 point line closer.

Lebron beating the 73-9 Warriors down 3-1 >>> Jordan winning championships on part time Pepsi factory employees

Lebron beating everyone from his era: Steph, KD, Kawhi, Duncan

MJ never beating: Bird, Magic, Pistons until they were washed up

Lebron > 90s Tim Hardaway Jr with male pattern baldness

except for Dirk who was older than pistons and the lakers. With an even older supporting cast vs the not 1 not 2....not 7 Heat were the GOAT candidate got outplayed by a 33 year old Jason Terry and jj barea that is the most EPIC choke by a star player in all of sports history then got sent back to cleveland by a 37 year old duncan, 36 year old ginobili and 32 year old Parker all older than the pistons and lakers.

DIrk isn't an ATG from this era, a slot below Durant, Kawhi and Steph. But he and those Mavs are leagues better than the .500 Cavs led by Larry Nance and Mark Price that bounced Air Slot Machine in a 5 game first round

Dirk is not below Kawhi nor KD. That's just absurd.

[twyzted]

The "bigger winner" that couldn't leave round 1 without Pippen. People say Lebron couldn't win a championship without a star, Jordan could barely win playoff games.

Absolutely not a better shooter, he had no range and begged the league to bring the 3 point line closer.

Lebron beating the 73-9 Warriors down 3-1 >>> Jordan winning championships on part time Pepsi factory employees

Lebron beating everyone from his era: Steph, KD, Kawhi, Duncan

MJ never beating: Bird, Magic, Pistons until they were washed up

Lebron > 90s Tim Hardaway Jr with male pattern baldness

except for Dirk who was older than pistons and the lakers. With an even older supporting cast vs the not 1 not 2....not 7 Heat were the GOAT candidate got outplayed by a 33 year old Jason Terry and jj barea that is the most EPIC choke by a star player in all of sports history then got sent back to cleveland by a 37 year old duncan, 36 year old ginobili and 32 year old Parker all older than the pistons and lakers.

DIrk isn't an ATG from this era, a slot below Durant, Kawhi and Steph. But he and those Mavs are leagues better than the .500 Cavs led by Larry Nance and Mark Price that bounced Air Slot Machine in a 5 game first round

So lebron lost vs a non all time great who was old with even older supporting cast? That does not look very good for Lebron you kinda checkmate yourself there

Bulls won 3-2 vs those cavs

[TheGOATRises007]

DIrk isn't an ATG from this era, a slot below Durant, Kawhi and Steph. But he and those Mavs are leagues better than the .500 Cavs led by Larry Nance and Mark Price that bounced Air Slot Machine in a 5 game first round

Lebron James was the 5th best player in the 2011 NBA Finals behind Dirk, Dwayne Wade, Jason Terry and Chris Bosh.

Was there ever a playoff series that Michael Jordan played in where he was not the best player? and that includes the series against one the greatest teams of all time in 1986 Celtics.

You are out of your mind if you don't think Dirk is an all time great player. With the exception of Shaq, Dirk beat every other comparable superstar in the post season at least once and that includes defeating
Lebron, Kobe, Durant, Tim Duncan (2x without HCA), Kevin Garnett, Steve Nash

I count 10 MVP's among those players I just listed, and that is not including Russel Westbrook, Dwayne Wade, or James Harden.

Again you typed a lot to not really make a point. Lebron had a bad series in 2011, nobody will deny that, just like Jordan being swept in round 1 countless times and not being able to win a playoff round until he was surrounded by stars won't stop him from being an all time great. He's just not Lebron.

Jordan never had a series as bad as Lebron's in 2011.

As for the bold: some of you need to brush up on your history. Don't talk when you don't know.

https://www.basketball-reference.com/playoffs/1988-nba-eastern-conference-first-round-cavaliers-vs-bulls.html

I don't see any other stars on that Bulls team.

[TheGOATRises007]

except for Dirk who was older than pistons and the lakers. With an even older supporting cast vs the not 1 not 2....not 7 Heat were the GOAT candidate got outplayed by a 33 year old Jason Terry and jj barea that is the most EPIC choke by a star player in all of sports history then got sent back to cleveland by a 37 year old duncan, 36 year old ginobili and 32 year old Parker all older than the pistons and lakers.

DIrk isn't an ATG from this era, a slot below Durant, Kawhi and Steph. But he and those Mavs are leagues better than the .500 Cavs led by Larry Nance and Mark Price that bounced Air Slot Machine in a 5 game first round

So lebron lost vs a non all time great who was old with even older supporting cast? That does not look very good for Lebron you kinda checkmate yourself there

Bulls won 3-2 vs those cavs

He doesn't even know his history.

Mark Price was a good player in his heyday.