Luka Doncic has officially entered the MVP race

[NY 567]

28 and 11 are not MVP level stats, in today's NBA with scoring inflation that is all-star, all-NBA caliber, but not MVP level. If Luka is as good offensively in scoring rebounding and playmaking most key at the MVP level as Mavs fans say he is, then with 'Very good' defense his team should be near the top of the pack regardless of teammates.

I'm not sure in what universe averaging a near 30 point triple double isn't MVP stats. What planet are you from? He's got better raw stats than Durant, Giannis, and Harden right now.

[Bob8]

Only thing I can read in this thread is, people don't know or understand, how much problems have Mavs with injuries and Covid protocol.

[BlazersBroncos]

turns out when a guy who plays no defense, can't shoot, is turnover prone, but has the highest usage plus teammates who box out so he can pull down 10 uncontested defensive rebounds a game, he's going to fill the stat sheet and impress casuals.

No defense?

He has a career 0.8 DBPM and is at an absurd 2.1 this season. His worst DRTG has been 110, which is not bad at all.

Your just a hater. Luka could walk into the woods and come out with a cure for cancer and you would say he was carried by the squirrels.

[Bob8]

28 and 11 are not MVP level stats, in today's NBA with scoring inflation that is all-star, all-NBA caliber, but not MVP level. If Luka is as good offensively in scoring rebounding and playmaking most key at the MVP level as Mavs fans say he is, then with 'Very good' defense his team should be near the top of the pack regardless of teammates.

Are you serious? He's 4th in PPG 2nd in ASTPG and 13th RPG. He's the only guy averaging those numbers. Jokic is close but still 3ppg and 2rpg short of him.

Luka is averaging this month 31/13/11/1.4 steals on 48%FG and 37% from 3pt range. ---> 5 W 2 L

"his team should be near the top of the pack regardless of teammates"

Sure, because he's a copy of an 27yo (in his prime) LBJ right now, right?

Not LeBron or Jordan in their prime could do much more with 6 important players missing. 3 players who started yesterday are averaging 10 points all 3 together.

[J_T]

Nets fans are replacing Clippers fans as ... well, not gonna say it, it's probably against forum rules. You know.

But it was Raptors fans 2 seasons ago, then replaced by Clippers last season and now Nets. It's too funny.

What are they putting in the water in Dallas?

Whatever it is, it's certainly not helping with objective basketball analysis.

Not at all a fan of these types of generalizations. I certainly don't want other Mavs fans held accountable for my takes.

I don't think you understand what generalization is, if you think that my statement was generalization. Let me give you an example.

Once upon a time every player in NBA/ABA was white. Then from 1950 first black players started joining. From certain year on, let's say 19XX for the first time there were more black players than white players.

"From 19XX NBA players were black." - This is generalization. It's applying a certain characteristic to the entire group of people, indiscriminately.

"From 19XX there have been more black players in NBA than white players." - That's NOT generalization. That'a a statistical fact, but - more importantly - it's not applying any characteristic to NBA players. Even if it was false, it would still not be generalization.

In this case it would have been generalization if I said that Nets fans have characteristic X. Which I did not say. I said that among posters with characteristic X, there has been an increasing percentage of such fans from Nets. Now you might agree with the statement or not. But even if my statement is incorrect it is STILL not generalization. From my side I can add, that if I did actually finish my statement it would have been much clearer that it's not a generalization, but a statistical claim.

I hope this has been clarified now. Many people don't understand what generalization is. Which is fine. We all learn. Hopefully you find my explanation useful.



As for you somehow being ashamed of Mavs fans... I have noticed this a LOT from you. I don't want to go too much into it but for now I will say that constantly saying how you are the most objective out of all Mavs fans is not going to do anything for your credibility. If you have good credibility (and I believe you do, since you are a mod), then you don't have to be saying such things. People will recognize that you are objective, if you are, and they will see you as a fanboy, if you are not objective. Pointing out how you are different from every other Mavs fans every 15 posts is simply not helpful and I don't think it's raising quality of discussion either.

I think you have interesting takes and I understand that you have to be writing different type of posts as well as a mod, but really... not cool.

[TheBonzaiEffect]

The best player in the NBA?

Oh lord.

Oh, what a cogent and objective response.

I said he looks like the best player in the game at the moment. Over the last 6:

32/12/12/2/1 on 49/38 shooting, and +49 +/-, with great D. Please objectively show me someone playing better. I'll wait.

You don't "look like the best player in the NBA" over a 6-game stretch, it doesn't work like that.

We're currently in one of the most talent-rich eras in NBA history. You have to be BEYOND special to even be mentioned in competition for that kind of billing. It's disrespectful to the players that are clearly better than him to make that statement.

Oh. I see. And what players are "clearly better than him?"

Because he's currently 3rd in the NBA in BPM and VORP. So curious how he isn't a part of the "competition for that kind of billing."

[TheBonzaiEffect]

I mean I was referring specifically to his 3 point shooting if you bothered reading the full post

I did and you didn't. But I appreciate you now clarifying what you meant to say.

And that's an odd thing to focus on since literally nobody is selling Luka Doncic, good 3-pt shooter. It's well established he isn't remotely that.

LOL I love how you're telling me what I was referring to. He said Doncic was the best player in the NBA and an elite 38% point shooter for a 6 game stretch.

And I responded by saying lets see him do it for a full season.

I obviously was not talking about his raw numbers overall, which he did just last year. But ok.

Of course I'm going to focus on it, if people are claiming that hes the best player in the NBA and shooting is a premium. You can't be a top 5 player in the NBA today without being a good shooter, possible exception Giannis whos also the DPOY.

Not to mention that Luka is still a bad defender.

Can you stop lying? For just 5 minutes, maybe?

A. I never said Luka was the best player in the NBA. I said over the past 6 games he has been. You still haven't refuted that.

B. I never said he was elite three-point shooter. I said he is shooting 38% (on large volume) over the past 6. That's a fact.

C. You said he is "worse than last year," even though his BPM is better, defensive numbers are better, and he's clearly on an upward trajectory.

D. You can be, because Luka is. He's top 5 in VORP and BPM. He's also posting elite midrange shooting numbers, btw. 46% on 10-16 and 77% on long twos.

[Bob8]

Oh, what a cogent and objective response.

I said he looks like the best player in the game at the moment. Over the last 6:

32/12/12/2/1 on 49/38 shooting, and +49 +/-, with great D. Please objectively show me someone playing better. I'll wait.

You don't "look like the best player in the NBA" over a 6-game stretch, it doesn't work like that.

We're currently in one of the most talent-rich eras in NBA history. You have to be BEYOND special to even be mentioned in competition for that kind of billing. It's disrespectful to the players that are clearly better than him to make that statement.

Oh. I see. And what players are "clearly better than him?"

Because he's currently 3rd in the NBA in BPM and VORP. So curious how he isn't a part of the "competition for that kind of billing."

May I just add that he's 2nd in assists, 4th in points and 13th in rebounds. Players clearly better should have something like 35/15/15. He's solid defender this year too. So 35/15/15 and defensive monster is imaginary player clearly better than Luka.

[Texas Chuck]

I certainly don't want other Mavs fans held accountable for my takes.

As for you somehow being ashamed of Mavs fans... I have noticed this a LOT from you. I don't want to go too much into it but for now I will say that constantly saying how you are the most objective out of all Mavs fans is not going to do anything for your credibility. If you have good credibility (and I believe you do, since you are a mod), then you don't have to be saying such things. People will recognize that you are objective, if you are, and they will see you as a fanboy, if you are not objective. Pointing out how you are different from every other Mavs fans every 15 posts is simply not helpful and I don't think it's raising quality of discussion either.

I think you have interesting takes and I understand that you have to be writing different type of posts as well as a mod, but really... not cool.

Just so we are clear about what happened. I literally posted I didn't want Mavs fans to be held accountable for my takes. I did not post that I did not want to be held accountable for theirs.

Or the opposite of what you are accusing me of doing here.

Now on the Trade Board where I operate as a Mod, yes I absolutely do feel an obligation to be objective and to encourage Mavs fans to attempt objectivity. I don't apologize for this.

But you can save the lecture series for when I actually post something suggesting I am better than other posters. K? Thanks!

[Bob8]

I certainly don't want other Mavs fans held accountable for my takes.

As for you somehow being ashamed of Mavs fans... I have noticed this a LOT from you. I don't want to go too much into it but for now I will say that constantly saying how you are the most objective out of all Mavs fans is not going to do anything for your credibility. If you have good credibility (and I believe you do, since you are a mod), then you don't have to be saying such things. People will recognize that you are objective, if you are, and they will see you as a fanboy, if you are not objective. Pointing out how you are different from every other Mavs fans every 15 posts is simply not helpful and I don't think it's raising quality of discussion either.

I think you have interesting takes and I understand that you have to be writing different type of posts as well as a mod, but really... not cool.

Just so we are clear about what happened. I literally posted I didn't want Mavs fans to be held accountable for my takes. I did not post that I did not want to be held accountable for theirs.

Or the opposite of what you are accusing me of doing here.

Now on the Trade Board where I operate as a Mod, yes I absolutely do feel an obligation to be objective and to encourage Mavs fans to attempt objectivity. I don't apologize for this.

But you can save the lecture series for when I actually post something suggesting I am better than other posters. K? Thanks!

I vividly remember how dismissive, arrogant and rude you were in thread about Luka being out of shape and you were clearly suggesting you're better than other posters. I know many of us have bad takes sometimes, problem is that mods should be better than most of writers here. Not always the case I'm afraid.

[TheBonzaiEffect]

As for you somehow being ashamed of Mavs fans... I have noticed this a LOT from you. I don't want to go too much into it but for now I will say that constantly saying how you are the most objective out of all Mavs fans is not going to do anything for your credibility. If you have good credibility (and I believe you do, since you are a mod), then you don't have to be saying such things. People will recognize that you are objective, if you are, and they will see you as a fanboy, if you are not objective. Pointing out how you are different from every other Mavs fans every 15 posts is simply not helpful and I don't think it's raising quality of discussion either.

I think you have interesting takes and I understand that you have to be writing different type of posts as well as a mod, but really... not cool.

Just so we are clear about what happened. I literally posted I didn't want Mavs fans to be held accountable for my takes. I did not post that I did not want to be held accountable for theirs.

Or the opposite of what you are accusing me of doing here.

Now on the Trade Board where I operate as a Mod, yes I absolutely do feel an obligation to be objective and to encourage Mavs fans to attempt objectivity. I don't apologize for this.

But you can save the lecture series for when I actually post something suggesting I am better than other posters. K? Thanks!

I vividly remember how dismissive, arrogant and rude you were in thread about Luka being out of shape and you were clearly suggesting you're better than other posters. I know many of us have bad takes sometimes, problem is that mods should be better than most of writers here. Not always the case I'm afraid.

Be very careful. I got banned last time I dared to call out Texas Chuck (not even an insult...just calling a spade a spade). Not all animals are created equal around here...

[Texas Chuck]

Just so we are clear about what happened. I literally posted I didn't want Mavs fans to be held accountable for my takes. I did not post that I did not want to be held accountable for theirs.

Or the opposite of what you are accusing me of doing here.

Now on the Trade Board where I operate as a Mod, yes I absolutely do feel an obligation to be objective and to encourage Mavs fans to attempt objectivity. I don't apologize for this.

But you can save the lecture series for when I actually post something suggesting I am better than other posters. K? Thanks!

I vividly remember how dismissive, arrogant and rude you were in thread about Luka being out of shape and you were clearly suggesting you're better than other posters. I know many of us have bad takes sometimes, problem is that mods should be better than most of writers here. Not always the case I'm afraid.

Be very careful. I got banned last time I dared to call out Texas Chuck (not even an insult...just calling a spade a spade). Not all animals are created equal around here...

Let me publicly go on the record here asking for leniency for everyone making this thread about me personally all because I had the gall to say I didn't like generalizing fanbases.

And I'll cop to what Bob accuse me of:

I can be dismissive when I feel its warranted.
I can be rude. I need to work on this one.
I can be arrogant. I should work on this too.

But it is worth pointing out I took a humble tack itt and am still getting lectured about it so the problem probably isn't all me....

[Bob8]

Just so we are clear about what happened. I literally posted I didn't want Mavs fans to be held accountable for my takes. I did not post that I did not want to be held accountable for theirs.

Or the opposite of what you are accusing me of doing here.

Now on the Trade Board where I operate as a Mod, yes I absolutely do feel an obligation to be objective and to encourage Mavs fans to attempt objectivity. I don't apologize for this.

But you can save the lecture series for when I actually post something suggesting I am better than other posters. K? Thanks!

I vividly remember how dismissive, arrogant and rude you were in thread about Luka being out of shape and you were clearly suggesting you're better than other posters. I know many of us have bad takes sometimes, problem is that mods should be better than most of writers here. Not always the case I'm afraid.

Be very careful. I got banned last time I dared to call out Texas Chuck (not even an insult...just calling a spade a spade). Not all animals are created equal around here...

Like it's mods duty to moderate us, we should write down, when we see something wrong. I know moderators job is very difficult, but being arrogant because you have super powers is totally wrong too.

[BelgradeNugget]

28 and 11 are not MVP level stats, in today's NBA with scoring inflation that is all-star, all-NBA caliber, but not MVP level. If Luka is as good offensively in scoring rebounding and playmaking most key at the MVP level as Mavs fans say he is, then with 'Very good' defense his team should be near the top of the pack regardless of teammates.

Are you serious? He's 4th in PPG 2nd in ASTPG and 13th RPG. He's the only guy averaging those numbers. Jokic is close but still 3ppg and 2rpg short of him.

Luka is averaging this month 31/13/11/1.4 steals on 48%FG and 37% from 3pt range. ---> 5 W 2 L

"his team should be near the top of the pack regardless of teammates"

Sure, because he's a copy of an 27yo (in his prime) LBJ right now, right?

Well if you want to be precise Jokic is 3ppg short of Luka, but 1rpg, 1ast, 0.7stl, ahead of him. Jokic is also shooting 10% better from the field, 10% better for 3 and 10% from free throw line.
https://www.espn.com/nba/stats/player/_/table/offensive/sort/avgAssists/dir/desc
Jokic is also first in OWS, WS, BPM, VORP 2nd in WS/48, OBPM, DBPM
https://www.basketball-reference.com/leagues/NBA_2021_advanced.html#advanced_stats::ws_per_48
First in RAPTOR and WAR
https://fivethirtyeight.com/features/whos-making-a-splash-so-far-in-our-nba-player-ratings/
And first in TPA.
But Luka is having a great season too.

[TheBonzaiEffect]

28 and 11 are not MVP level stats, in today's NBA with scoring inflation that is all-star, all-NBA caliber, but not MVP level. If Luka is as good offensively in scoring rebounding and playmaking most key at the MVP level as Mavs fans say he is, then with 'Very good' defense his team should be near the top of the pack regardless of teammates.

Are you serious? He's 4th in PPG 2nd in ASTPG and 13th RPG. He's the only guy averaging those numbers. Jokic is close but still 3ppg and 2rpg short of him.

Luka is averaging this month 31/13/11/1.4 steals on 48%FG and 37% from 3pt range. ---> 5 W 2 L

"his team should be near the top of the pack regardless of teammates"

Sure, because he's a copy of an 27yo (in his prime) LBJ right now, right?

Well if you want to be precise Jokic is 3ppg short of Luka, but 1rpg, 1ast, 0.7stl, ahead of him. Jokic is also shooting 10% better from the field, 10% better for 3 and 10% from free throw line.
https://www.espn.com/nba/stats/player/_/table/offensive/sort/avgAssists/dir/desc
Jokic is also first in OWS, WS, BPM, VORP 2nd in WS/48, OBPM, DBPM
https://www.basketball-reference.com/leagues/NBA_2021_advanced.html#advanced_stats::ws_per_48
First in RAPTOR and WAR
https://fivethirtyeight.com/features/whos-making-a-splash-so-far-in-our-nba-player-ratings/
And first in TPA.
But Luka is having a great season too.

Sorry, Jokic also sucks because his team isn't first in the NBA.

[Mr B]

28 and 11 are not MVP level stats, in today's NBA with scoring inflation that is all-star, all-NBA caliber, but not MVP level. If Luka is as good offensively in scoring rebounding and playmaking most key at the MVP level as Mavs fans say he is, then with 'Very good' defense his team should be near the top of the pack regardless of teammates.

Vegas actually is the one who said Luka is the top MVP candidate. Mavs fans didn’t pull that out of thin air. You don’t have to like it but it’s a fact Vegas has him as the odd on favorite to win the MVP.

There’s always going to be haters when you have a great player. It’s not our job to convince you.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Bob8]

I vividly remember how dismissive, arrogant and rude you were in thread about Luka being out of shape and you were clearly suggesting you're better than other posters. I know many of us have bad takes sometimes, problem is that mods should be better than most of writers here. Not always the case I'm afraid.

Be very careful. I got banned last time I dared to call out Texas Chuck (not even an insult...just calling a spade a spade). Not all animals are created equal around here...

Let me publicly go on the record here asking for leniency for everyone making this thread about me personally all because I had the gall to say I didn't like generalizing fanbases.

And I'll cop to what Bob accuse me of:

I can be dismissive when I feel its warranted.
I can be rude. I need to work on this one.
I can be arrogant. I should work on this too.

But it is worth pointing out I took a humble tack itt and am still getting lectured about it so the problem probably isn't all me....

Problem for writing rude or arrogant things is only on you. Like is only on me, when I behave like that. Even when we're provoked, we should behave. Isn't this exactly what mods expect from writers in this forum?

[BelgradeNugget]

Are you serious? He's 4th in PPG 2nd in ASTPG and 13th RPG. He's the only guy averaging those numbers. Jokic is close but still 3ppg and 2rpg short of him.

Luka is averaging this month 31/13/11/1.4 steals on 48%FG and 37% from 3pt range. ---> 5 W 2 L

"his team should be near the top of the pack regardless of teammates"

Sure, because he's a copy of an 27yo (in his prime) LBJ right now, right?

Well if you want to be precise Jokic is 3ppg short of Luka, but 1rpg, 1ast, 0.7stl, ahead of him. Jokic is also shooting 10% better from the field, 10% better for 3 and 10% from free throw line.
https://www.espn.com/nba/stats/player/_/table/offensive/sort/avgAssists/dir/desc
Jokic is also first in OWS, WS, BPM, VORP 2nd in WS/48, OBPM, DBPM
https://www.basketball-reference.com/leagues/NBA_2021_advanced.html#advanced_stats::ws_per_48
First in RAPTOR and WAR
https://fivethirtyeight.com/features/whos-making-a-splash-so-far-in-our-nba-player-ratings/
And first in TPA.
But Luka is having a great season too.

Sorry, Jokic also sucks because his team isn't first in the NBA.

Definitely. You got me here

[Mr B]

28 and 11 are not MVP level stats, in today's NBA with scoring inflation that is all-star, all-NBA caliber, but not MVP level. If Luka is as good offensively in scoring rebounding and playmaking most key at the MVP level as Mavs fans say he is, then with 'Very good' defense his team should be near the top of the pack regardless of teammates.

Are you serious? He's 4th in PPG 2nd in ASTPG and 13th RPG. He's the only guy averaging those numbers. Jokic is close but still 3ppg and 2rpg short of him.

Luka is averaging this month 31/13/11/1.4 steals on 48%FG and 37% from 3pt range. ---> 5 W 2 L

"his team should be near the top of the pack regardless of teammates"

Sure, because he's a copy of an 27yo (in his prime) LBJ right now, right?

Not LeBron or Jordan in their prime could do much more with 6 important players missing. 3 players who started yesterday are averaging 10 points all 3 together.

We saw in Labron’s first year with the Lakers how he would do with no second star and bad starters in the lineup with him. The Lakers didn’t look very good.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Texas Chuck]

Anyway back on topic....

Is Luka an MVP candidate? I guess for me that's a matter of how loosely one defines candidate. Another poster pointed out Embiid and Lebron should be considered favorites at the moment and I would agree with that. Giannis has playoff baggage now and he's not having the season he had last year, but the Bucks are first in the East. Jokic is suffering like Luka with mediocre team results, but he's been amazing. KD, same as Jokic/Luka, but coming off that injury the narrative really helps him--though adding Harden will probably off-set that. PG is a punching bag, but the Clippers are good and he's been absurd. Kawhi obviously. Curry has team issue atm.

So right now the field is probably 10 deep or near as. Luka belongs in that mix for sure. But among the favorites based on this first stretch of the season? No, I can't make a compelling case for that.