NBA protocols/Covid/Vaccine - Discussion thread

[Curmudgeon]

The fact is that the unvaccinated are dying in disproportionate numbers and clogging up available hospital beds, respirators, etc. If we wanted more of them dead, we'd be anti-vaxxers.

[art_tatum]

Heres another question. So people dont want to take the vaccine bc of "possible" long term effects. How long ? 2 yrs? 5 yrs? 10? 30?
Doesnt that defeat the point of vaccines/herd immunity.

Great so youll take the polio vaccine now, even though its pretty much eradicated in the usa.

Selectivism. Do you do that for everything? By the time you trust something, a new version to replace it has come out. Do you only buy and drive 15 year old cars? Clearly there no long term data for every new model every year. Clearly not

[Plutonashfan]

Just curious about the ratio of non-vaxxed NBA players who went to college for six weeks versus those who actually got a degree, which included a science class or two.

Besides, the sole purpose of the vaccination is to protect against the virus so I'm not sure why people would be upset if others choose to be unvaccinated.

The primary goal is to reduce hospitalizations and deaths. Slowing spread and reducing the severity of mutations are side benefits. Public health is not a "personal choice." We don't live in bubbles. One's polio, measles, and Covid affect and infect other people and society at large. If one chooses to opt out of society at large by not getting your common childhood vaccines (of which Covid is likely to be one someday soon), then at the very least one should just stop whining about the fact that no one wants to live/work/play with them.

Make leper colonies great again.

This plus in the states we have a whole segment of population (kids) that can't get shot. I don't want this people anywhere near my children.

[MoneyTalks41890]

I will say some criticize how aggressive people are but there are tons of people who just prowl here and I think they should have correct information.

[nickhx2]

I will say some criticize how aggressive people are but there are tons of people who just prowl here and I think they should have correct information.

agree. can't overstate the importance of providing legitimate and accurate information. you're not gonna convince the super conspiracy theorist, anti-vaxxer crowd, but there's plenty of people on the fence who simply don't have the right information in their hands. like, one thing i see over and over are people (some reasonable, some not) talking about natural immunity, but there's been a few links already posted talking about preliminary studies on hybrid immunity and how even those previously infected would greatly benefit from getting the shot, still.

we're at a point where getting the right info out is of the utmost importance, whether it's aggressive or not.

[Bottomsouth]

I'm vaccinated. At this point, if a player or anybody doesn't want to get vaccinated and ends up dying, its fine by me. I have no problems in mutations and getting a booster every 6 months as long as more stupid people are removed from the populations.

I work for a logistic company and I've gotten more raises and bonuses over the last two years. So I have no problem in letting this pandemic keep going on because some people don't want to get vaccinated. Only thing is that i think the government and insurance companies should cover 0% of the bill of an unvaccinated person and the unvaccinated should be given the lowest priority in hospitals. Just let them go back home and die in their house, and i'm ok with it.

How are people allowed to post garbage like this? This guy literately just said he's fine with massive deaths and that he's okay with it because his wallet will get fatter.

BTW, I'm also vaccinated. And for those of you that are unvaccinated, no, the vaccine did not turn me crazy or turn me into a deranged sociopath.

Some of these people want you dead if you don't agree with their views. A few weeks ago In the "current affair covid thread" a poster mentioned how the unvaccinated should be "removed from culture" and no one batted an eye. Which is part of the reason why I don't really care to be apart of these covid threads.

These people are nutty.

Wouldn’t doubt their only interaction outside of work (if they even do work) is thru this basketball message board.

[Pattycakes]

Considering you guys barely even know basketball most of the time on this board, I’m gonna go ahead and skip the serious matters, but thanks for pinning your opinions.

[youngthegiant]

Jonathan Isaac just had a 9 minute press conference with nothing but Covid questions lol.

[Perseus1966]

Who is that and what’s his background?

Why do you feel a one day sample size is indicative of anything?

Do you often take medical advice from tweets?

Martin Foley, Melbourne's Health Minister. What do sample sizes have to do with the fact that 78% in one day were vaccinated cases? See you did that tribal thing there where you refuted it before you even had all the info.

Please tell me O'Lord where I can source this information from and where I can't as apparently words coming out of the man's mouth aren't good enough for you.

Ah, and the truth of the matter is that he misspoke. Now do you see why it’s important to ask basic questions?

https://www.abc.net.au/news/2021-09-28/victoria-covid-cases-vaccination-rate/100496066

Where in the article you read that health minister misspoke?

[michaelm]

How are people allowed to post garbage like this? This guy literately just said he's fine with massive deaths and that he's okay with it because his wallet will get fatter.

BTW, I'm also vaccinated. And for those of you that are unvaccinated, no, the vaccine did not turn me crazy or turn me into a deranged sociopath.

Some of these people want you dead if you don't agree with their views. A few weeks ago In the "current affair covid thread" a poster mentioned how the unvaccinated should be "removed from culture" and no one batted an eye. Which is part of the reason why I don't really care to be apart of these covid threads.

These people are nutty.

Wouldn’t doubt their only interaction outside of work (if they even do work) is thru this basketball message board.

Absolutely agree. You can disagree with people/think they are wrong without wishing them dead.

[Catchall]

Jonathan Isaac just had a 9 minute press conference with nothing but Covid questions lol.

He also handled it very well. I was quite impressed.

[Plossum]

Jonathan Isaac just had a 9 minute press conference with nothing but Covid questions lol.

He also handled it very well. I was quite impressed.

I agree. For him it seemed to boil down to him already having had Covid and being comfortable that he had developed natural antibodies that would help protect him against future infection. It seems a reasonable position backed by the evidence of people who have had and recovered from Covid (FYI, I am vaccinated).

[art_tatum]

Jonathan Isaac just had a 9 minute press conference with nothing but Covid questions lol.

He also handled it very well. I was quite impressed.

I agree. For him it seemed to boil down to him already having had Covid and being comfortable that he had developed natural antibodies that would help protect him against future infection. It seems a reasonable position backed by the evidence of people who have had and recovered from Covid (FYI, I am vaccinated).

https://www.nebraskamed.com/COVID/covid-19-studies-natural-immunity-versus-vaccination

https://www.cdc.gov/media/releases/2021/s0806-vaccination-protection.html

Some studies say different.
1/3 of covid infections do not produce measurable antibodies later.


There was one study (not linked) that said natural immunity + 1 dose seemed improve upon natural immunity.

[michaelm]

He also handled it very well. I was quite impressed.

I agree. For him it seemed to boil down to him already having had Covid and being comfortable that he had developed natural antibodies that would help protect him against future infection. It seems a reasonable position backed by the evidence of people who have had and recovered from Covid (FYI, I am vaccinated).

https://www.nebraskamed.com/COVID/covid-19-studies-natural-immunity-versus-vaccination

https://www.cdc.gov/media/releases/2021/s0806-vaccination-protection.html

Some studies say different.
1/3 of covid infections do not produce measurable antibodies later.


There was one study (not linked) that said natural immunity + 1 dose seemed improve upon natural immunity.

The latter study is the one I have seen. Afaik immunity from natural infection is variable and not well studied, particularly in regard to the Delta variant, while immunity from the vaccines is necessarily very well studied.

[michaelm]

As stated previously - now I know I have to fact check even a health minister's own press conferences to make sure there wasn't a data entry error.

Critical thinking. If something is a massive outlier, maybe apply some critical thinking?

For sure. And let's say for a moment that it was true. What does that demonstrate? You're talking about 400 people somewhere in the world when we far more substantial data available which shows that taking the vaccine strongly reduces the risk of serious illness, hospitalization, and death from Covid.

I think they have admitted they stuffed up their statistics that day.

Not relevant to Victoria Australia yet, but there is a statistical phenomenon known as Simpson's paradox which has been raised in relation to Israel. if you have a high vaccination rate then people getting admitted to hospital will indeed include vaccinated patients. notwithstanding which a large majority of vaccinated patients don't get admitted to hospital. They also have a large population under 16 who weren't vaccinated, hence only 68% of the population was actually vaccinated, and the delta strain infects children at a higher rate and children can transmit the delta variant which they didn't overly with the initial strain. Thankfully they still have a lower rate of getting seriously ill. israel also had a population of ultra orthodox Jews who didn't get vaccinated and were disproportionately represented in the recent numbers for hospitalisation and deaths from Covid 19 in that country. Their overall death rate is still also lower than from the first wave.

[nickhx2]

I agree. For him it seemed to boil down to him already having had Covid and being comfortable that he had developed natural antibodies that would help protect him against future infection. It seems a reasonable position backed by the evidence of people who have had and recovered from Covid (FYI, I am vaccinated).

https://www.nebraskamed.com/COVID/covid-19-studies-natural-immunity-versus-vaccination

https://www.cdc.gov/media/releases/2021/s0806-vaccination-protection.html

Some studies say different.
1/3 of covid infections do not produce measurable antibodies later.


There was one study (not linked) that said natural immunity + 1 dose seemed improve upon natural immunity.

The latter study is the one I have seen. Afaik immunity from natural infection is variable and not well studied, particularly in regard to the Delta variant, while immunity from the vaccines is necessarily very well studied.

https://www.nbcnews.com/health/health-news/hybrid-immunity-people-covid-still-get-vaccinated-rcna1974

a good read about hybrid immunity

[michaelm]

I know you are I'm not struggling with this really, it's very clear to me what happened, you on the other hand, have trouble facing the obvious.

Lol ok.

The next time you’re pulled over for speeding, tell the cop that not being able to speed is an infringement upon your constitutional right to choose to speed. Then seek the counsel of your sister for guidance.

See how it goes.

Things are more nuanced than that, you as a lawyer should know.
The point from bringing up Civil Disobedience is precisely to demonstrate that, HDT didn't violate other laws of the land, he did bisobey what he deemed unjust law, which this mandate is.

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I agree nuance may well exist for some jobs including being an NBA basketball player, such as very frequent testing and caution off court, unlikely to be workable though the latter might be as has been said.

Do you really think health workers anywhere in the Western world are or should be free to make their own choices as far as infection control is concerned with no impact on their employment status though ?. Similarly there are all manner of "'mandates" in regard to food hygiene .

[Peregrine01]

Jonathan Isaac just had a 9 minute press conference with nothing but Covid questions lol.

He actually had a fairly rational stance - he had COVID before and has seen the studies about natural immunity being stronger than vaccine-induced immunity. I don't agree with this stance (since I think that vaccines have no drawbacks of consequence in adults and can only help in the previously-infected) but at least it's informed and well-reasoned.

[Mavrelous]

I agree nuance may well exist for some jobs including being an NBA basketball player, such as very frequent testing and caution off court, unlikely to be workable though the latter might be as has been said.

Do you really think health workers anywhere in the Western world are or should be free to make their own choices as far as infection control is concerned with no impact on their employment status though ?. Similarly there are all manner of "'mandates" in regard to food hygiene .

Before going out and claim certain group poses additional risk to society, you should have proof of that increased risk that justifies this policy, and then you should eliminate the risk on this group of people from the policy you want to inact on them, and then you should think long and hard about mandating it.
About cotrolling the spread:
We don't have a good comparison for the rate of spread from vaxxed and unvaxxed, we do know they both spread it, we don't know how much either one of them does, the whole talk is smoke and mirrors for the lack of such study, and no, I'm not talking about post hoc statistics gathered, that are heavily affected by testing policy, I'm talking about controlled trial with experiment and control arm, we have 2 examples in the world, Israel and Singapore, both highly vaccinated, and both are having severe outbreaks, how do you reconcile the vaccine being good at stopping transmission with these 2 examples?
if the vaccinated spread at 80% rate of the unvaxxed, does this justify mandating vaccines? I hope we both agree it doesn't, if it's 10% then, sure, let's discuss vaccine mandates for health care worker and calculate risk/reward.
The trials themselves for the vaccine, did not test, measure or estimate spread, they even did not measure infection rate, they simply measured efficacy in preventing severe disease, that's it.

Did you know that people in Israel are considered unvaxxed 6 months after their last shot, and helth care workers and teachers have to have been vaccinated within 6 months?
Is this reasonable to mandate your freedom of movement and right to work (if you are a doctor, nurse or a teacher), by being vaxxed every 6 months?

About vaccine side effects:
We have a VAERS system, that reports insane amount of adverse events for the Pfizer vaccine, it is true that VAERS is not well managed and controlled, it's also true that it's a felony to report falsely to it, why hasn't this been investigated? How can you go to a person fearing this vaccine and tell him it's safe when the actual reporting system of the CDC screams it's unsafe?
Lots of things are lacking in the insane drive to force vaccine and roll out vaccination cards, not least of which, is the fact that we don't have age stratified analysis for all cause mortality between vaccinated and unvaccinated, COVID is a very serious disease, especially for the old, we should see clear difference in ACM between the the vaxxed and unvaxxed, we at least should see normal ACM mortality among the vaxxed, has this happened?


What people are proposing is violating the bodily autonomy of working class people, to do that, you need strong evidence and not hand waiving and politicians claiming their patience is wearing thin.

[Peregrine01]

I agree. For him it seemed to boil down to him already having had Covid and being comfortable that he had developed natural antibodies that would help protect him against future infection. It seems a reasonable position backed by the evidence of people who have had and recovered from Covid (FYI, I am vaccinated).

https://www.nebraskamed.com/COVID/covid-19-studies-natural-immunity-versus-vaccination

https://www.cdc.gov/media/releases/2021/s0806-vaccination-protection.html

Some studies say different.
1/3 of covid infections do not produce measurable antibodies later.


There was one study (not linked) that said natural immunity + 1 dose seemed improve upon natural immunity.

The latter study is the one I have seen. Afaik immunity from natural infection is variable and not well studied, particularly in regard to the Delta variant, while immunity from the vaccines is necessarily very well studied.

Immunity does not just = antibodies. It's natural for antibodies to wane over time - otherwise you'll have a permanently bloated lymph node.

Memory B-Cells (which produces antibodies) and killer T-Cells (which kills virus-infected cells) remain active in case the body encounters the virus again and will ramp up to quell any future infection fairly quickly. In recovered SARS-COV-1 patients from 20 years ago, these cells remain active to this day. Now, SARS-COV-2 is still new but this portends well for the long-term duration of our immune response from vaccination or natural immunity.