2021-22 Rookie Thread

[Jadoogar]

Can we really say Giddey is by far the best passer in the draft when we haven’t seen Cade yet and Scottie averaged more assists in less minutes and with less usage?

Not saying Scottie is a better passer but I think there’s definitely an argument is there for him and there’s no “by far best passer”

Yes we can lol. Even pre draft it was clear giddey is a much better passer than cade, cade isn’t even top 5 passer in the draft. Barnes is good but he doesn’t have the flair of giddey. The only one that compares is shariffe

“Flair” isn’t what makes a player a good passer lol. And Scottie has made several flashy passes as well anyways

What really matters is Assist/turnover ratio and advanced stats:
Scottie had 5.6 assists to 1.8 turnovers
Giddey had 5.0 assists to 2.2 turnovers

Scottie had 29.6 Ast% on 17.8% usg
Giddey had 29.9 Ast% on 21% usg


Based on this, Barnes is the better passer

Barnes is playing with much better teammates than Giddey is, it's probably easier for Barnes to get assists.
That said, the fact that it's close is pretty amazing considering Giddey was considered the best passer in the draft.

[Stickmann]

“Flair” isn’t what makes a player a good passer lol. And Scottie has made several flashy passes as well anyways

What really matters is Assist/turnover ratio and advanced stats:
Scottie had 5.6 assists to 1.8 turnovers
Giddey had 5.0 assists to 2.2 turnovers

Scottie had 29.6 Ast% on 17.8% usg
Giddey had 29.9 Ast% on 21% usg


Based on this, Barnes is the better passer

Turnovers aren't directly caused by bad passes and the quality of a pass doesn't mean it will lead to an assist. Team sport and all that. Using assist% and usage% to judge someone's passing is one of the stupidest thing i've seen.

And yet using “flair” to just someone’s passing over advanced stats isn’t stupid? Yeah ok ballboy

flair adds to it. Anyone could tell jokic was an amazing passer based on the aesthetic quality of his passes his rookie year. Functional passing matters, but being an amazing passer is more than that.

[KokoKaizer]

“Flair” isn’t what makes a player a good passer lol. And Scottie has made several flashy passes as well anyways

What really matters is Assist/turnover ratio and advanced stats:
Scottie had 5.6 assists to 1.8 turnovers
Giddey had 5.0 assists to 2.2 turnovers

Scottie had 29.6 Ast% on 17.8% usg
Giddey had 29.9 Ast% on 21% usg


Based on this, Barnes is the better passer

Turnovers aren't directly caused by bad passes and the quality of a pass doesn't mean it will lead to an assist. Team sport and all that. Using assist% and usage% to judge someone's passing is one of the stupidest thing i've seen.

And yet using “flair” to judge someone’s passing over advanced stats isn’t stupid? Yeah ok ballboy

No need to go the "ballboy way".

you were also a ballboy back in the day

[Stickmann]

Turnovers aren't directly caused by bad passes and the quality of a pass doesn't mean it will lead to an assist. Team sport and all that. Using assist% and usage% to judge someone's passing is one of the stupidest thing i've seen.

And yet using “flair” to judge someone’s passing over advanced stats isn’t stupid? Yeah ok ballboy

No need to go the "ballboy way".

you were also a ballboy back in the day

lol just realized he meant the real gm rank thing. Such a dork thing to do lol

[Bruin]

Turnovers aren't directly caused by bad passes and the quality of a pass doesn't mean it will lead to an assist. Team sport and all that. Using assist% and usage% to judge someone's passing is one of the stupidest thing i've seen.

And yet using “flair” to judge someone’s passing over advanced stats isn’t stupid? Yeah ok ballboy

No need to go the "ballboy way".

you were also a ballboy back in the day

Lots of ballboy posts are people making burner accounts to say something that makes no sense

Otherwise, he’s entitled to his opinion although I heavily disagree that Giddey is “by far” the best passer in the draft when the numbers say otherwise

[Bruin]

Yes we can lol. Even pre draft it was clear giddey is a much better passer than cade, cade isn’t even top 5 passer in the draft. Barnes is good but he doesn’t have the flair of giddey. The only one that compares is shariffe

“Flair” isn’t what makes a player a good passer lol. And Scottie has made several flashy passes as well anyways

What really matters is Assist/turnover ratio and advanced stats:
Scottie had 5.6 assists to 1.8 turnovers
Giddey had 5.0 assists to 2.2 turnovers

Scottie had 29.6 Ast% on 17.8% usg
Giddey had 29.9 Ast% on 21% usg


Based on this, Barnes is the better passer

Barnes is playing with much better teammates than Giddey is, it's probably easier for Barnes to get assists.
That said, the fact that it's close is pretty amazing considering Giddey was considered the best passer in the draft.

Barnes has played a lot of his minutes with guys who aren’t seeing the floor all that much either

Yes, he has better teammates in general, but in preseason we had guys like Gillespie playing with Barnes lol

The usage also tells a lot. If Barnes was allowed to play PG and handle the ball more, he’d probably have a higher average

[Bruin]

Turnovers aren't directly caused by bad passes and the quality of a pass doesn't mean it will lead to an assist. Team sport and all that. Using assist% and usage% to judge someone's passing is one of the stupidest thing i've seen.

And yet using “flair” to just someone’s passing over advanced stats isn’t stupid? Yeah ok ballboy

flair adds to it. Anyone could tell jokic was an amazing passer based on the aesthetic quality of his passes his rookie year. Functional passing matters, but being an amazing passer is more than that.

Again, Scottie has had many quality aesthetic (as you say) passes too. A lot of his assists haven’t really been simple at all and have actually been from some spectacular passes

And I like Giddey a lot (probably one of my 5 favorite rookies) and he’s gonna be good but I disagree that he’s “by far” the best passer. You can’t really say that when the stats say otherwise. If he was putting up 10apg and nobody else was close, then ok sure you could make that claim. But when there’s another player who’s putting up more assists on less usage and less turnovers, you really can’t make such a claim

[Stickmann]

And yet using “flair” to just someone’s passing over advanced stats isn’t stupid? Yeah ok ballboy

flair adds to it. Anyone could tell jokic was an amazing passer based on the aesthetic quality of his passes his rookie year. Functional passing matters, but being an amazing passer is more than that.

Again, Scottie has had many quality aesthetic (as you say) passes too. A lot of his assists haven’t really been simple at all and have actually been from some spectacular passes

And I like Giddey a lot (probably one of my 5 favorite rookies) and he’s gonna be good but I disagree that he’s “by far” the best passer. You can’t really say that when the stats say otherwise. If he was putting up 10apg and nobody else was close, then ok sure you could make that claim. But when there’s another player who’s putting up more assists on less usage and less turnovers, you really can’t make such a claim

Again, assists and turnovers don’t directly correlate to how good of a passer someone is. And usage has nothing to do with passing lol, all it says is giddey took more shots and free throws than barnes. People always misuse that stat

[Bruin]

flair adds to it. Anyone could tell jokic was an amazing passer based on the aesthetic quality of his passes his rookie year. Functional passing matters, but being an amazing passer is more than that.

Again, Scottie has had many quality aesthetic (as you say) passes too. A lot of his assists haven’t really been simple at all and have actually been from some spectacular passes

And I like Giddey a lot (probably one of my 5 favorite rookies) and he’s gonna be good but I disagree that he’s “by far” the best passer. You can’t really say that when the stats say otherwise. If he was putting up 10apg and nobody else was close, then ok sure you could make that claim. But when there’s another player who’s putting up more assists on less usage and less turnovers, you really can’t make such a claim

Again, assists and turnovers don’t directly correlate to how good of a passer someone is. And usage has nothing to do with passing lol, all it says is giddey took more shots and free throws than barnes. People always misuse that stat

It shows that Giddey was more involved in the teams offense. It accounts for any plays that a player was involved in a Field goal attempt, free throw attempt, or turnover

It very much has a something to do with passing regardless of what you want to believe

And again, assists to turnover ratio and advanced stats is a much better metric than anything you’ve used for your argument

And all I’m saying is there’s no “by far” best passer here. Maybe Giddey is better, maybe Barnes is better. It’s close. Definitely not a massive gap like you’re implying

[Stickmann]

Again, Scottie has had many quality aesthetic (as you say) passes too. A lot of his assists haven’t really been simple at all and have actually been from some spectacular passes

And I like Giddey a lot (probably one of my 5 favorite rookies) and he’s gonna be good but I disagree that he’s “by far” the best passer. You can’t really say that when the stats say otherwise. If he was putting up 10apg and nobody else was close, then ok sure you could make that claim. But when there’s another player who’s putting up more assists on less usage and less turnovers, you really can’t make such a claim

Again, assists and turnovers don’t directly correlate to how good of a passer someone is. And usage has nothing to do with passing lol, all it says is giddey took more shots and free throws than barnes. People always misuse that stat

It shows that Giddey was more involved in the teams offense. It accounts for any plays that a player was involved in a Field goal attempt, free throw attempt, or turnover

It very much has a something to do with passing regardless of what you want to believe

And again, assists to turnover ratio and advanced stats is a much better metric than anything you’ve used for your argument

And all I’m saying is there’s no “by far” best passer here. Maybe Giddey is better, maybe Barnes is better. It’s close. Definitely not a massive gap like you’re implying

It’s a much better metric because you chose it to be a much better metric. A player getting a an offensive foul or the ball stripped while dribbling isn’t an indictment of his passing skills, and neither is a player blowing up a wide open layup after an amazing no look wrap around pass.

[Bruin]

Again, assists and turnovers don’t directly correlate to how good of a passer someone is. And usage has nothing to do with passing lol, all it says is giddey took more shots and free throws than barnes. People always misuse that stat

It shows that Giddey was more involved in the teams offense. It accounts for any plays that a player was involved in a Field goal attempt, free throw attempt, or turnover

It very much has a something to do with passing regardless of what you want to believe

And again, assists to turnover ratio and advanced stats is a much better metric than anything you’ve used for your argument

And all I’m saying is there’s no “by far” best passer here. Maybe Giddey is better, maybe Barnes is better. It’s close. Definitely not a massive gap like you’re implying

It’s a much better metric because you chose it to be a much better metric. A player getting a an offensive foul or the ball stripped while dribbling isn’t an indictment of his passing skills, and neither is a player blowing up a wide open layup after an amazing no look wrap around pass.

Its a better metric than anything you’ve proposed. Flashy passes doesn’t make a player a superior passer. That makes no sense

Giddey isn’t the only player who’s made passes to players who suck. Barnes has had several passes that should’ve led to extremely easy buckets too but his teammates (who got cut a couple days ago) blew bucket after bucket. That’s typically what happens in preseason ball

Here’s another stat for you: Per 36, Scottie averaged 7.7 apg while Giddey averaged 6.2

It’s still close, and nothing you’ve said has any real basis. Your only argument has been “flair”. You haven’t mentioned 1 actual statistic that indicates Giddey being a far superior passer. If you can show me a stat that truly indicates theism then ok sure. But until then, Giddey isn’t “by far” the best passer. It’s quite close and every stat so far shows Barnes is the better passer

It’s clear you haven’t watched Barnes play at all since you’re claiming about flair without even acknowledging the passes that Barnes makes. I have actually watched Giddey play since I watched majority of OKCs games (primarily to watch SGA and Dort) and have seen that Giddey is quite impressive, but not the best “by far”

[Stickmann]

It shows that Giddey was more involved in the teams offense. It accounts for any plays that a player was involved in a Field goal attempt, free throw attempt, or turnover

It very much has a something to do with passing regardless of what you want to believe

And again, assists to turnover ratio and advanced stats is a much better metric than anything you’ve used for your argument

And all I’m saying is there’s no “by far” best passer here. Maybe Giddey is better, maybe Barnes is better. It’s close. Definitely not a massive gap like you’re implying

It’s a much better metric because you chose it to be a much better metric. A player getting a an offensive foul or the ball stripped while dribbling isn’t an indictment of his passing skills, and neither is a player blowing up a wide open layup after an amazing no look wrap around pass.

Its a better metric than anything you’ve proposed. Flashy passes doesn’t make a player a superior passer. That makes no sense

Giddey isn’t the only player who’s made passes to players who suck. Barnes has had several passes that should’ve led to extremely easy buckets too but his teammates (who got cut a couple days ago) blew bucket after bucket. That’s typically what happens in preseason ball

Here’s another stat for you: Per 36, Scottie averaged 7.7 apg while Giddey averaged 6.2

It’s still close, and nothing you’ve said has any real basis. Your only argument has been “flair”. You haven’t mentioned 1 actual statistic that indicates Giddey being a far superior passer. If you can show me a stat that truly indicates theism then ok sure. But until then, Giddey isn’t “by far” the best passer. It’s quite close and every stat so far shows Barnes is the better passer

It’s clear you haven’t watched Barnes play at all since you’re claiming about flair without even acknowledging the passes that Barnes makes. I have actually watched Giddey play since I watched majority of OKCs games (primarily to watch SGA and Dort) and have seen that Giddey is quite impressive, but not the best “by far”

I have a larger sample size showing giddey leading a
mans league in assists as a rookie if that’s better. Nothing you’ve said here is of value, my greater point is that judging passing on limited sample stats with no other context is so so so dumb. Eye test is a dumb catch all but at a certain point it does matter.

[Bruin]

It’s a much better metric because you chose it to be a much better metric. A player getting a an offensive foul or the ball stripped while dribbling isn’t an indictment of his passing skills, and neither is a player blowing up a wide open layup after an amazing no look wrap around pass.

Its a better metric than anything you’ve proposed. Flashy passes doesn’t make a player a superior passer. That makes no sense

Giddey isn’t the only player who’s made passes to players who suck. Barnes has had several passes that should’ve led to extremely easy buckets too but his teammates (who got cut a couple days ago) blew bucket after bucket. That’s typically what happens in preseason ball

Here’s another stat for you: Per 36, Scottie averaged 7.7 apg while Giddey averaged 6.2

It’s still close, and nothing you’ve said has any real basis. Your only argument has been “flair”. You haven’t mentioned 1 actual statistic that indicates Giddey being a far superior passer. If you can show me a stat that truly indicates theism then ok sure. But until then, Giddey isn’t “by far” the best passer. It’s quite close and every stat so far shows Barnes is the better passer

It’s clear you haven’t watched Barnes play at all since you’re claiming about flair without even acknowledging the passes that Barnes makes. I have actually watched Giddey play since I watched majority of OKCs games (primarily to watch SGA and Dort) and have seen that Giddey is quite impressive, but not the best “by far”

I have a larger sample size showing giddey leading a
mans league in assists as a rookie if that’s better. Nothing you’ve said here is of value, my greater point is that judging passing on limited sample stats with no other context is so so so dumb. Eye test is a dumb catch all but at a certain point it does matter.

Ok I agree sample size is small but you also can’t really use NBL as part of the sample size either

And I never made any conclusion based on the small sample. I never said Scottie is the better passer. All I’ve said is that the stats so far (although a small sample) support Scottie and therefore it’s unreasonable to call anyone the best passer “by far”

Ultimately we’ll have to wait to see how they do in the regular season

[BlazersBroncos]

I think Barnes is going to be a special passer for a PF, potentially a Green type. But I think Josh's ability to drive and dish, plus being at least a marginal 3PT threat and causing the defender to have to play up more, will leave him a better all around passer.

Both guys are special, both guys are really, really easy to root for. And I hope both guys tear up the league for a long time. Just two dude that make the game more fun to watch, play with elite motors and seem to really have fun.

I think Mobley has AD like potential, but after him there isnt a player I would take over Barnes and Giddey.

[Dino-Might]

Turnovers aren't directly caused by bad passes and the quality of a pass doesn't mean it will lead to an assist. Team sport and all that. Using assist% and usage% to judge someone's passing is one of the stupidest thing i've seen.

And yet using “flair” to just someone’s passing over advanced stats isn’t stupid? Yeah ok ballboy

flair adds to it. Anyone could tell jokic was an amazing passer based on the aesthetic quality of his passes his rookie year. Functional passing matters, but being an amazing passer is more than that.

Stickmann, just admit when you lost an argument instead of tripling down.

As PrinceAli said, you have not provided a SINGLE objective stat or even provided any real qualitative analysis to support your position that Giddy has been the "by far" better passer in the preseason.

If "flair" is what is important, maybe the best passers are on the Globetrotters or And1 Tour.

Only time will tell who is a better playmaker. But for better overall players, Giddy would have to significantly be better on the offensive end to make up for Barnes's huge advantage on defence.

[Ruma85]

I think Barnes is going to be a special passer for a PF, potentially a Green type. But I think Josh's ability to drive and dish, plus being at least a marginal 3PT threat and causing the defender to have to play up more, will leave him a better all around passer.

Both guys are special, both guys are really, really easy to root for. And I hope both guys tear up the league for a long time. Just two dude that make the game more fun to watch, play with elite motors and seem to really have fun.

I think Mobley has AD like potential, but after him there isnt a player I would take over Barnes and Giddey.

Just curious where do you see this Elite motor from Giddey?

[BostonCouchGM]

Barnes and Giddey are both really good passers. I think Giddey has more panache and a better handle and court vision so he might be elite someday once the pro game slows down for him.

[DTP]

Pistons have been very sketchy with Cade's ankle injury......I don't trust/like it at all.

[God Squad]

Pistons have been very sketchy with Cade's ankle injury......I don't trust/like it at all.

Maybe they're hiding him? Maybe it's worse than they let on?

[Goon]

It's not all in the stats, especially in a small sample size of meaningless preseason games. By watching both Barnes and Giddey actually play and not rely on box scores, it seems to me that Giddey is the better passer, just the way he sees the floor, the passes that don't seem there at all, by being a step or two faster than most other guys on the floor. Stats won't show that. Also, like it was mentioned already, Giddey's teammates really did fluff an incredible amount of open shots, especially in his first game.

Overall they both seem gifted passers and saying who "won" the argument is childish, nobody did. I'm very excited to see them in the regular season, the two that intrigue me the most from this draft.