Suns Just Another Team

[bisme37]

I find the Celtics > Suns takes in this thread especially hilarious.

Who even said that though? I went through the thread to look for it and all I'm seeing about the Celtics being better was a comment from Suns fan pj0tr who seems not very impressed by the Suns and thinks several team are better.

That said, for the last 3 months the Suns and Celtics have been the best teams in the league as far as the records and stats go. I see the Suns as the title faves as I've said a few times but I don't really get laughing off other good teams. Playoffs are going to be a dog fight.

(edit: Oh hell I broke my vow to stop commenting in this thread. Thought I was in the other Suns thread.)

[bwgood77]

Suns are great but they have one fatal flaw, lack of elite players. Paul is great, but he is older and is a huge injury risk. He gets hurt every postseason. Him actually getting hurt this year was a blessing in disguise so he can be fresher for the postseason.

Booker is also a good all star caliber player, but he's not top 10. Every title winner has had top 10 players. The Suns do not. This works great in the regular season but in the postseason those stars shine. The Suns will be relying on old cp3 to make huge plays consistently. Last year Giannis was by far the best player and that's why the Bucks won.

Every ten years or so a team without a top 5 player wins one. The last one was the 2014 Spurs. Before that 04 Pistons and then the Bad Boys. It isn't easy but it isn't impossible.

Was Dirk thought of as top 5 in 2011, at least before the playoffs? I don't remember. I guess he may have been but it seems like everyone thought the Lakers, Thunder, Heat and maybe another team would knock them out and that he was on the decline while LeBron, KD, Wade, and still Kobe were the best players.

[bwgood77]

I find the Celtics > Suns takes in this thread especially hilarious.

Who even said that though? I went through the thread to look for it and all I'm seeing about the Celtics being better was a comment from Suns fan pj0tr who seems not very impressed by the Suns and thinks several team are better.

That said, for the last 3 months the Suns and Celtics have been the best teams in the league as far as the records and stats go. I see the Suns as the title faves as I've said a few times but I don't really get laughing off other good teams. Playoffs are going to be a dog fight.

(edit: Oh hell I broke my vow to stop commenting in this thread. Thought I was in the other Suns thread.)

Yeah, I think the Celtics right now are the best team in the east and probably better than Memphis. They just rolled through the Warriors, Jazz and Nuggets by 70 and are by far the hottest team in the NBA...Memphis and Phx have been pretty hot most of the year but the Celtics starting 5 is strong. I think they'd be tougher for the Suns than Memphis due to experience, solid defense and a tough cover. I think Tatum is a little more scary than Ja too to take over. Memphis' depth and coaching is great, but the Celtics starting 5 seem superior.

They feel like the clear cut favorite to me in the east. That's before looking at 538. Just look at their record ovver the past 30 games or whatever and their pt differential for the entire season the best outside of the Suns, but it's probably better over the last 20-30 games or so.

Everyone can talk about "if __________ is healthy" whether it be the Nets, Philly, etc, but if they can't stay healthy all season I don't know how much people should count on for the playoffs, outside of Curry being able to play at home which of course is big but they will have a tough road and may not get past the first round.

Of course the Bucks are tough too. And the Heat will play tough as they have 4 tough defensive players, particularly Bam. I'd rank the top 5 playoff contenders the Suns, Celtics, Bucks, Heat, Memphis. Though completely healthy Warriors, Clippers, Nuggets and Nets would be tough and I'd put the Clippers as tough as anyone with Kawhi and George but those team being healthy are probably a stretch, except maybe the Warriors.

[spanishninja]

Suns are great but they have one fatal flaw, lack of elite players. Paul is great, but he is older and is a huge injury risk. He gets hurt every postseason. Him actually getting hurt this year was a blessing in disguise so he can be fresher for the postseason.

Booker is also a good all star caliber player, but he's not top 10. Every title winner has had top 10 players. The Suns do not. This works great in the regular season but in the postseason those stars shine. The Suns will be relying on old cp3 to make huge plays consistently. Last year Giannis was by far the best player and that's why the Bucks won.

people keep saying Booker isn't top 10 but whenever I tell people to list guys ahead of him, they always include a bunch of injured players like AD, Dame, PG and Kawhi on there. He definitely has a legit case of being top 10 this season.

Also, in regard to Booker not making huge plays, having two 40 point games in the finals qualifies as stepping up, eh?

[Jaqua92]

Suns are great but they have one fatal flaw, lack of elite players. Paul is great, but he is older and is a huge injury risk. He gets hurt every postseason. Him actually getting hurt this year was a blessing in disguise so he can be fresher for the postseason.

Booker is also a good all star caliber player, but he's not top 10. Every title winner has had top 10 players. The Suns do not. This works great in the regular season but in the postseason those stars shine. The Suns will be relying on old cp3 to make huge plays consistently. Last year Giannis was by far the best player and that's why the Bucks won.

people keep saying Booker isn't top 10 but whenever I tell people to list guys ahead of him, they always include a bunch of injured players like AD, Dame, PG and Kawhi on there. He definitely has a legit case of being top 10 this season.

Also, in regard to Booker not making huge plays, having two 40 point games in the finals qualifies as stepping up, eh?

1. KD
2. Jokic
3. Giannis
4. Embiid
5. Steph
6. LeBron
7. Luka
8. Tatum
9. Harden
10. Ja Morant

That's probably your top 10 seasons. In terms of injury, and players who are out and haven't fallen off a cliff, you got Kawhi as most likely still better. Paul George (assuming he hasn't fallen off a cliff).

I think you can also put Trae over Booker as well.

Booker is a top 15 or so player. He's noticeably a step down from that bonafide top 10 player list.



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[Hitachi77]

Wow, 538 has the Celtics 46% to win the east, that's fascinating. Even if you put them at 90% to win round 1, with the Nets as one possible opponent, and 65% to win rounds 2 and 3 against teams like the Bucks, Sixers, and Heat, that would still only put them at 38% to win the east.

Does 538 have a good track record with NBA stuff? If the Celtics roll the east I might have to start following them for some NBA betting. Their description of what they base their projections off is pretty vague.

[carrrnuttt]

Suns are great but they have one fatal flaw, lack of elite players. Paul is great, but he is older and is a huge injury risk. He gets hurt every postseason. Him actually getting hurt this year was a blessing in disguise so he can be fresher for the postseason.

Booker is also a good all star caliber player, but he's not top 10. Every title winner has had top 10 players. The Suns do not. This works great in the regular season but in the postseason those stars shine. The Suns will be relying on old cp3 to make huge plays consistently. Last year Giannis was by far the best player and that's why the Bucks won.

people keep saying Booker isn't top 10 but whenever I tell people to list guys ahead of him, they always include a bunch of injured players like AD, Dame, PG and Kawhi on there. He definitely has a legit case of being top 10 this season.

Also, in regard to Booker not making huge plays, having two 40 point games in the finals qualifies as stepping up, eh?

1. KD
2. Jokic
3. Giannis
4. Embiid
5. Steph
6. LeBron
7. Luka
8. Tatum
9. Harden
10. Ja Morant

That's probably your top 10 seasons. In terms of injury, and players who are out and haven't fallen off a cliff, you got Kawhi as most likely still better. Paul George (assuming he hasn't fallen off a cliff).

I think you can also put Trae over Booker as well.

Booker is a top 15 or so player. He's noticeably a step down from that bonafide top 10 player list.



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NBA.com Advanced Stats NET Rating leaders (offense + defense combined): https://www.nba.com/stats/players/advanced-leaders/


1. Jayson Tatum BOS 11.3
2. Stephen Curry GSW 10.7
3. Mikal Bridges PHX 10.6
4. Hassan Whiteside UTA 10.6
5. Chris Paul PHX 10.1
6. Robert Williams III BOS 10.0
7. Jae Crowder PHX 9.9
8. Devin Booker PHX 9.7
9. Deandre Ayton PHX 9.6
10. Cameron Payne PHX 9.5

So what *exactly* are we basing this "top ten" on?

I mean, that list should make you happy, since there are two Celts players in there, no?

[IamBBAnalysis]

Suns are great but they have one fatal flaw, lack of elite players. Paul is great, but he is older and is a huge injury risk. He gets hurt every postseason. Him actually getting hurt this year was a blessing in disguise so he can be fresher for the postseason.

Booker is also a good all star caliber player, but he's not top 10. Every title winner has had top 10 players. The Suns do not. This works great in the regular season but in the postseason those stars shine. The Suns will be relying on old cp3 to make huge plays consistently. Last year Giannis was by far the best player and that's why the Bucks won.

people keep saying Booker isn't top 10 but whenever I tell people to list guys ahead of him, they always include a bunch of injured players like AD, Dame, PG and Kawhi on there. He definitely has a legit case of being top 10 this season.

Also, in regard to Booker not making huge plays, having two 40 point games in the finals qualifies as stepping up, eh?

1. KD
2. Jokic
3. Giannis
4. Embiid
5. Steph
6. LeBron
7. Luka
8. Tatum
9. Harden
10. Ja Morant

That's probably your top 10 seasons. In terms of injury, and players who are out and haven't fallen off a cliff, you got Kawhi as most likely still better. Paul George (assuming he hasn't fallen off a cliff).

I think you can also put Trae over Booker as well.

Booker is a top 15 or so player. He's noticeably a step down from that bonafide top 10 player list.



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Harden? Not this year.

[falcolombardi]

Wow, 538 has the Celtics 46% to win the east, that's fascinating. Even if you put them at 90% to win round 1, with the Nets as one possible opponent, and 65% to win rounds 2 and 3 against teams like the Bucks, Sixers, and Heat, that would still only put them at 38% to win the east.

Does 538 have a good track record with NBA stuff? If the Celtics roll the east I might have to start following them for some NBA betting. Their description of what they base their projections off is pretty vague.

i think their predictiom models for soccer teams seem pretty good, both in tracking with the eye test and predicting results fairly well (their soccer rankings are spot on imo with city/bayern/Liverpool as far away best teams)

basketball they seem more of a mixed bag, one 2020 their model was super low on lakers and super high on celtics which was wrong even with hindsight imo

in general their fórmula -always- loves the celtics even when they are being bad (like early this season) the fórmula was high on them

so it cannot be only their level of play simce they always seem to overshoot some teams consistently (celtics) and undershoot some teams consistently (2020/2021 lakers)

[falcolombardi]

people keep saying Booker isn't top 10 but whenever I tell people to list guys ahead of him, they always include a bunch of injured players like AD, Dame, PG and Kawhi on there. He definitely has a legit case of being top 10 this season.

Also, in regard to Booker not making huge plays, having two 40 point games in the finals qualifies as stepping up, eh?

1. KD
2. Jokic
3. Giannis
4. Embiid
5. Steph
6. LeBron
7. Luka
8. Tatum
9. Harden
10. Ja Morant

That's probably your top 10 seasons. In terms of injury, and players who are out and haven't fallen off a cliff, you got Kawhi as most likely still better. Paul George (assuming he hasn't fallen off a cliff).

I think you can also put Trae over Booker as well.

Booker is a top 15 or so player. He's noticeably a step down from that bonafide top 10 player list.



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NBA.com Advanced Stats NET Rating leaders (offense + defense combined): https://www.nba.com/stats/players/advanced-leaders/


1. Jayson Tatum BOS 11.3
2. Stephen Curry GSW 10.7
3. Mikal Bridges PHX 10.6
4. Hassan Whiteside UTA 10.6
5. Chris Paul PHX 10.1
6. Robert Williams III BOS 10.0
7. Jae Crowder PHX 9.9
8. Devin Booker PHX 9.7
9. Deandre Ayton PHX 9.6
10. Cameron Payne PHX 9.5

So what *exactly* are we basing this "top ten" on?

I mean, that list should make you happy, since there are two Celts players in there, no?

if anythingh thst list would suggest no one is being the clear Driver of Phoenix succes but their whole team

when a team is the best in the seasom, all their main players will appear high in net rating, doesnt mean they are all top 10

just like Eric Gordon was not the best player in the league in 2018

[Slim Charlez]

phx hasn't won anything
gsw had with the pedigree they have

Everyone gonna get mad at you, but this is 100% facts.

Win, and you get respect.

Suns don't deserve respect yet.

No disrespect to the warriors but without kd what have they proven? That they can barely beat an injury riddled team in the finals seven years ago?

[Slim Charlez]

So I’m not allowed to talk about playoff teams because I root for a lottery team? Idk why your sensitive. Suns are just another Jazz tier team

To win. You need a top 10 player atleast

You're perfectly fine and entitled to share you opinion for precisely what it is; however, proclaiming that the Suns "don’t actually have a chance at winning a chip" is pretty ignorant. And to follow that with a blanket generalization doesn't help your claim.

It's cool though. Your opinion is noted.

The Suns have arguably the best PG in the game, one of the 10 best SG's, and one of the top centers... but I guess none of that counts for anything. We'll see soon enough as to just how far they go.

Lol ok maybe it sounds ignortant. Fair enough. Suns just not ready yet Imo. I think they need more playoff experience. Doesnt mean they don’t have a chance in the next couple years tho.

Playoff experience? They made the finals last year and CP is one of the most playoff experienced players in the league, also lol @ comparing them to the Jazz, not even in the same stratosphere

[Slim Charlez]

Suns are a really good team with great depth and one definite another maybe HOF player

They could lose in the first round to a Lebron AD oast their prime cast IMO as well.

The fact that we're actively talking about an 8 seed having the 2 best players in the series over a #1 seed is really why the Suns will be "just another team" until they prove it.

They need to prove they are absolutely better than the Lakers by beating them in a series when the Lakers are healthy.

Until they do, they will always be doubted.

People need to stop this silly narrative. The Lakers prove that just because you have two top ten players doesn't mean you're a great team automatically, they're struggling to make the play in yet they'll beat a 60+ win team that has owned them in recent meetings? The Lakers are straight garbage, I'd like my Spurs chances vs them in the play in so please let's stop putting them in the same breath as other contenders.

Also this narrative that you must have a top ten player to win a title is outdated, the league has a lot more talent, a guy like booker might not be top ten now, but he's top 15 easily and honestly is there much difference between booker and whoever people have as the tenth best player in the league? Doubt it. I remember from 2012 to 2014 the same thing was being said about the Spurs.

[ManyaWarrior]

Suns are a really good team with great depth and one definite another maybe HOF player

They could lose in the first round to a Lebron AD oast their prime cast IMO as well.

The fact that we're actively talking about an 8 seed having the 2 best players in the series over a #1 seed is really why the Suns will be "just another team" until they prove it.

They need to prove they are absolutely better than the Lakers by beating them in a series when the Lakers are healthy.

Until they do, they will always be doubted.

People need to stop this silly narrative. The Lakers prove that just because you have two top ten players doesn't mean you're a great team automatically, they're struggling to make the play in yet they'll beat a 60+ win team that has owned them in recent meetings? The Lakers are straight garbage, I'd like my Spurs chances vs them in the play in so please let's stop putting them in the same breath as other contenders.

Also this narrative that you must have a top ten player to win a title is outdated, the league has a lot more talent, a guy like booker might not be top ten now, but he's top 15 easily and honestly is there much difference between booker and whoever people have as the tenth best player in the league? Doubt it. I remember from 2012 to 2014 the same thing was being said about the Spurs.

Because we are being generous saying the Top 10 thing. Except 2004 Pistons and probably 2014 Spurs every champion in the last 30 years has had a player with a case for being the best in the entire league not just top 10. Until they prove that narrative wrong its fair for people to not trust in them winning a chip

[spanishninja]

1. KD
2. Jokic
3. Giannis
4. Embiid
5. Steph
6. LeBron
7. Luka
8. Tatum
9. Harden
10. Ja Morant

That's probably your top 10 seasons. In terms of injury, and players who are out and haven't fallen off a cliff, you got Kawhi as most likely still better. Paul George (assuming he hasn't fallen off a cliff).

I think you can also put Trae over Booker as well.

Booker is a top 15 or so player. He's noticeably a step down from that bonafide top 10 player list.



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NBA.com Advanced Stats NET Rating leaders (offense + defense combined): https://www.nba.com/stats/players/advanced-leaders/


1. Jayson Tatum BOS 11.3
2. Stephen Curry GSW 10.7
3. Mikal Bridges PHX 10.6
4. Hassan Whiteside UTA 10.6
5. Chris Paul PHX 10.1
6. Robert Williams III BOS 10.0
7. Jae Crowder PHX 9.9
8. Devin Booker PHX 9.7
9. Deandre Ayton PHX 9.6
10. Cameron Payne PHX 9.5

So what *exactly* are we basing this "top ten" on?

I mean, that list should make you happy, since there are two Celts players in there, no?

if anythingh thst list would suggest no one is being the clear Driver of Phoenix succes but their whole team

when a team is the best in the seasom, all their main players will appear high in net rating, doesnt mean they are all top 10

just like Eric Gordon was not the best player in the league in 2018

so you want to cite advanced stats, but then if the advanced stats do not support your argument, you discredit the metric?

[Hsker4Life]

This “Top10” thing is such an arbitrary number. It’s also quite subjective. Player #10 is all you need, but if you have player #11 and #15, nope! So sorry. No chance!

The Suns have two great, all-star players. Both players also have had very recent playoff success. They can win it all. Period.

[spanishninja]

Suns are great but they have one fatal flaw, lack of elite players. Paul is great, but he is older and is a huge injury risk. He gets hurt every postseason. Him actually getting hurt this year was a blessing in disguise so he can be fresher for the postseason.

Booker is also a good all star caliber player, but he's not top 10. Every title winner has had top 10 players. The Suns do not. This works great in the regular season but in the postseason those stars shine. The Suns will be relying on old cp3 to make huge plays consistently. Last year Giannis was by far the best player and that's why the Bucks won.

people keep saying Booker isn't top 10 but whenever I tell people to list guys ahead of him, they always include a bunch of injured players like AD, Dame, PG and Kawhi on there. He definitely has a legit case of being top 10 this season.

Also, in regard to Booker not making huge plays, having two 40 point games in the finals qualifies as stepping up, eh?

1. KD
2. Jokic
3. Giannis
4. Embiid
5. Steph
6. LeBron
7. Luka
8. Tatum
9. Harden
10. Ja Morant

That's probably your top 10 seasons. In terms of injury, and players who are out and haven't fallen off a cliff, you got Kawhi as most likely still better. Paul George (assuming he hasn't fallen off a cliff).

I think you can also put Trae over Booker as well.

Booker is a top 15 or so player. He's noticeably a step down from that bonafide top 10 player list.



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thanks for the list. First, Harden is nowhere near top 10 this year, and KD has not really played that much this season (be surprised if he makes an all-nba team for example). you look at 538's overall RAPTOR and see the following:

Jokic
Giannis
Embiid
Gobert
Tatum
Curry
Doncic
GPII
FVV
KD
Jrue
Lebron
Jarrett Allen
Booker

If you remove the guys on this list that are not on your list, you get

Jokic
Giannis
Embiid
Tatum
Curry
Doncic
KD
Lebron
Booker

Notably, Booker is above Trae, Ja, Mitchell, and CP3 on this metric.

And then if you go by 538's WAR, and remove the names not found on your list, you see:

Jokic
Tatum
Giannis
Embiid
Curry
Doncic
Trae
Booker

putting Book at top 8.

Not to say that 538 is the end all be all model for this kind of thing, but to say that analytics don't consider Booker anywhere near top 10 is overstating it.

[Damkac]

Basketball is a team sport. Would team with the best player still be a favourite if the 2nd, 3rd, 4th and 5th best players on the floor plays for the other team?
And BTW with all those "if only X was healthy" talks, having deep roster means injuries don't hurt team that much. Even when Paul, Booker, Ayton or other players were missing Suns still played on a high level.

[Hitachi77]

Suns are great but they have one fatal flaw, lack of elite players. Paul is great, but he is older and is a huge injury risk. He gets hurt every postseason. Him actually getting hurt this year was a blessing in disguise so he can be fresher for the postseason.

Booker is also a good all star caliber player, but he's not top 10. Every title winner has had top 10 players. The Suns do not. This works great in the regular season but in the postseason those stars shine. The Suns will be relying on old cp3 to make huge plays consistently. Last year Giannis was by far the best player and that's why the Bucks won.

people keep saying Booker isn't top 10 but whenever I tell people to list guys ahead of him, they always include a bunch of injured players like AD, Dame, PG and Kawhi on there. He definitely has a legit case of being top 10 this season.

Also, in regard to Booker not making huge plays, having two 40 point games in the finals qualifies as stepping up, eh?

1. KD
2. Jokic
3. Giannis
4. Embiid
5. Steph
6. LeBron
7. Luka
8. Tatum
9. Harden
10. Ja Morant

That's probably your top 10 seasons. In terms of injury, and players who are out and haven't fallen off a cliff, you got Kawhi as most likely still better. Paul George (assuming he hasn't fallen off a cliff).

I think you can also put Trae over Booker as well.

Booker is a top 15 or so player. He's noticeably a step down from that bonafide top 10 player list.



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Even if I give you this list, how many of those teams would you take over the Suns? Let's take a look:

1. KD - if the Suns lose to the Nets, it will also be because Kyrie played great, and role players stepped up
2. Jokic - no indication that the Nuggets have much of a chance vs the Suns
3. Giannis - if the Bucks win, it would be because they also have 2 damn good wings, and some solid role players on top of that
4. Embiid - if the Sixers win, it's because they also have another top 10 player, according to your list
5. Steph - if the Warriors win, it's because they have 2 other future hall of famers, and a slew of solid role players
6. LeBron - if the Lakers win, it means AD magically came back as a top 5/10 talent for the playoffs
7. Luka - unlikely the Suns lose to the Mavs
8. Tatum - Celtics look loaded at this point
9. Harden - see #4
10. Ja Morant - Grizzlies have a ridic record without Morant, they are loaded as well

In short, if the Suns lose it won't be because they lack a top 10 player, it will be because they played another damn good team, with much more than a top 10 player.

[Slim Charlez]

The fact that we're actively talking about an 8 seed having the 2 best players in the series over a #1 seed is really why the Suns will be "just another team" until they prove it.

They need to prove they are absolutely better than the Lakers by beating them in a series when the Lakers are healthy.

Until they do, they will always be doubted.

People need to stop this silly narrative. The Lakers prove that just because you have two top ten players doesn't mean you're a great team automatically, they're struggling to make the play in yet they'll beat a 60+ win team that has owned them in recent meetings? The Lakers are straight garbage, I'd like my Spurs chances vs them in the play in so please let's stop putting them in the same breath as other contenders.

Also this narrative that you must have a top ten player to win a title is outdated, the league has a lot more talent, a guy like booker might not be top ten now, but he's top 15 easily and honestly is there much difference between booker and whoever people have as the tenth best player in the league? Doubt it. I remember from 2012 to 2014 the same thing was being said about the Spurs.

Because we are being generous saying the Top 10 thing. Except 2004 Pistons and probably 2014 Spurs every champion in the last 30 years has had a player with a case for being the best in the entire league not just top 10. Until they prove that narrative wrong its fair for people to not trust in them winning a chip

Well why can't the suns be the 04 Pistons or 14 Spurs? Especially this season where there doesn't really seem to be a runaway favorite other than Milwaukee?