OT: Magnus Carlsen brouhahas

[WarriorGM]

One is Magnus, the other is Hans. The point is, GMs will play 100% engine lines, you play against lesser opponents, you'll have an easier time playing the best moves.

If it's higher security checks, that's accommodating his accusers, not Hans

A comparison between Niemann and Carlsen would not be appropriate because Carlsen is one of the greatest players of all-time whose level of play is vetted via other means. If there is anyone in the world you'd expect to have the most games similar to a computer it would be Carlsen. Niemann has until recently been an ordinary GM or worse. If they even have a similar number that would be suspicious.

Or... get this... Niemann was actually underrated, is young and had room to grow, and COVID prevented him from playing OTB and increasing his rating

And when he did play, he beat a ton of 2500s and 2600s players and his rating went up to closer to where it probably should be

There is one way for Niemann to vindicate himself. He can dominate like Carlsen because by your reckoning he is at Carlsen's level. He may be prevented from playing top tournaments but I'm sure the notoriety at the very least may allow him opportunities to still play in other venues. If he can maintain a 2750 rating in blitz I think people may re-evaluate. But if he cannot that's an answer in itself.

[CobraCommander]

starting from 2020, Magnus only has 2 games with 100 percent accuracy

Niemann has much more than that spanning from that time period

It's cos Niemann has played like 4x as many games

And because he cheated....

[Dr Aki]

starting from 2020, Magnus only has 2 games with 100 percent accuracy

Niemann has much more than that spanning from that time period

It's cos Niemann has played like 4x as many games

And because he cheated....

How did he do it?

[Adelheid]

I dont think Hans cheated (anal beads, mobile phone, signals from other people and whatnot)

what I believe is, Hans viciously abuse the use of chess engines, like memorizing entire lines and permutations -- as ridiculous as it may sound. Professional chess players have absurd memory retention capabilities so its not in the realm of impossibility

[WarriorGM]

I dont think Hans cheated (anal beads, mobile phone, signals from other people and whatnot)

what I believe is, Hans viciously abuse the use of chess engines, like memorizing entire lines and permutations -- as ridiculous as it may sound. Professional chess players have absurd memory retention capabilities so its not in the realm of impossibility

If that's how Hans did it, I wouldn't call that cheating—too impressive as a feat of memory.

[CobraCommander]

A comparison between Niemann and Carlsen would not be appropriate because Carlsen is one of the greatest players of all-time whose level of play is vetted via other means. If there is anyone in the world you'd expect to have the most games similar to a computer it would be Carlsen. Niemann has until recently been an ordinary GM or worse. If they even have a similar number that would be suspicious.

Or... get this... Niemann was actually underrated, is young and had room to grow, and COVID prevented him from playing OTB and increasing his rating

And when he did play, he beat a ton of 2500s and 2600s players and his rating went up to closer to where it probably should be

There is one way for Niemann to vindicate himself. He can dominate like Carlsen because by your reckoning he is at Carlsen's level. He may be prevented from playing top tournaments but I'm sure the notoriety at the very least may allow him opportunities to still play in other venues. If he can maintain a 2750 rating in blitz I think people may re-evaluate. But if he cannot that's an answer in itself.

People that watch chess a little and watch steamers a lot might think the top guys don’t think Hans cheated because of a few comments but the majority of the actual players believe he cheated for 2 reasons...

.his blitz and rapid don’t compare at all to his classical games which is illogical beyond explanation....?!

mainly because the faster you go against top tier players, the more you depend on DEEP DEEP knowledge of a line or lines that Neiman doesn’t appear to have -

Hans inability to explain in detail what the hell he was doing and why in a game is just odd. The super GMs remember MOVES and POSITIONS in their games in jr chess, or positions in famous games AND some positions in games that people play casually that they found interesting, YET Hans can’t explain what and why he did something in detail when playing against the world champion. It would be like you beating prime Jordan one on one and not remembering if you closed Jordan out with a Dunk or a Jump Shot!!

Hans beat JOrDan and is like - “uh yeah well I don’t really remember what happened in that game”

I’m not a GM but I play enough to know that the TOP guys wouldn’t make a stink about some 19 year old American GM when he isn’t even a threat seriously for the Candidates. The Russians (you know the country that is notorious for state sanctioned doping in international competition) hasn’t even been accused of cheating when they consistently put out the strongest players- some that can or could beat magnus....but NOw Magnus is unjustifiable afraid of playing THIS kid? Why- why would magnus bully him...? To what end?

[CobraCommander]

I dont think Hans cheated (anal beads, mobile phone, signals from other people and whatnot)

what I believe is, Hans viciously abuse the use of chess engines, like memorizing entire lines and permutations -- as ridiculous as it may sound. Professional chess players have absurd memory retention capabilities so its not in the realm of impossibility

If that's how Hans did it, I wouldn't call that cheating—too impressive as a feat of memory.

I thought about what Adelheid said before as well...

but when he played Magnus he beat Magnus while playing BLACK!

while Magnus was playing a line that he rarely plays.... !!

so Hans memorized a strong chess engine blacks responses to a line Magnus rarely plays? Omg if he did that he is absolutely the best ever ever ever


Also What the hell does that prep look like?!

[CobraCommander]

It's cos Niemann has played like 4x as many games

And because he cheated....

How did he do it?

Some how he received stockfish 20 level high end chess moves via signaling to his anal beads....I don’t have those beads myself, but when I was last at the Green Hills mall in Taguig I saw a vendor selling replicas of those very beads. They were calls “Magnus Beater Anal Beads”. I would have picked them up but there are two things I won’t do...cheating at chess is one of them and the other...well explaining would get me shadow banned

[Buckets22]

If Niemann figured out how to cheat without being caught - good for him. If Carlsen doesn't want to play against him - even better - automatic win for Niemann.

"Good for him"???

What a weird take encouraging cheating in competition.

Yes, it is fun when players/teams find loopholes or fool the referees allowing them to obtain an advantage gained trough their cunningness.
I'd rather have this than someone living like a robot to win.

[Dr Aki]

And because he cheated....

How did he do it?

Some how he received stockfish 20 level high end chess moves via signaling to his anal beads....I don’t have those beads myself, but when I was last at the Green Hills mall in Taguig I saw a vendor selling replicas of those very beads. They were calls “Magnus Beater Anal Beads”. I would have picked them up but there are two things I won’t do...cheating at chess is one of them and the other...well explaining would get me shadow banned

Watch on YouTube

[DCasey91]

100% cheated no question. People have already skimmed through Han’s recent backlog of games and fishy is an understatement. Now late rapid improvement at a late age for a GM is quite rare (notice rapid and not small) but it can happen.

He has multiple 100% acc/correlation games lasting over 30-40 moves that no other person in history has able to achieve even for a brief period of time.

[DutchManDanFan]

His blitz and rapid don’t compare at all to his classical games which is illogical beyond explanation....?!

Mainly because the faster you go against top tier players, the more you depend on DEEP DEEP knowledge of a line or lines that Neiman doesn’t appear to have.

This is the way to find out his real strenght. I looked up his Fide ratings (fide.com).
Standard: 2688 = 1.30 h + 30 sec per move + 30 mins after move 40
Rapid: 2529 = 20/25 mins. + 5/10 sec per move
Blitz: 2632 = 5 mins + 2/3 sec per move (or faster)

Carlsen: 2861 - 2834 - 2830
Ding: 2808 - 2836 - 2788
Nakamura: 2768 - 2789 - 2850
Caruana: 2758 - 2747 - 2847
Firouzja: 2778 - 2732 - 2795 (same age as Niemann).

If Niemann has the level to play with the best GM’s he has to get his rapid and blitz ratings at the same level as well.

[DCasey91]

All these examples posted above is examples of drug doping, in which blood is kept in storage for years on end waiting for technology to catch up.

Niemann, if he cheated, is being accused of using/having external source of information when he isn't allowed.

The closest situation I can think of is the Astros and bin banging to let their batters know what pitches are coming ahead of time.

Because it's literally in person and over-the-board, this practically means the only proof that stands up needs to be catching Niemann in the act.

If he's cheating, then you have explain how. All the "evidence" so far is that:
1. He said he's previously cheated in online play at the ages of 12 and 16 and was banned from chess.com for it.
2. He's been playing really well the last few years, well enough to beat Magnus where Magnus played like ****
3. He's had a meteoric rise as a late teenager, but not anymore meteoric than other similarly aged and experienced GMs
4. Other GMs have suspected him of cheating, but have no proof either.

Magnus' lawyer filtered statement basically means he doesn't have proof and that he say anything more unless Niemann drops his (only) resort of defending himself of a defamation suit if Magnus can't prove cheating.

At this point I think most professional chess players are probably leaning towards the belief Niemann cheated and they're not basing it just on Magnus's comments. The proof you are talking about is proof in a legal court. There is enough proof that other professional players could use to justify not playing him and if other players refuse to play him, tournaments aren't going to invite him.

no they aren't. the only chess guys who are desperate enough to make twitch money and thus make public comments say there's no proof.

and it's true, there's literally no proof beyond this guy's biased intuition. there's some other people who replied to my comment saying as much, they just trust magnus's intuition cuz he's the GOAT, which he is and is incredibly impressive for a game that has been essentially the same for centuries. to make a bball analogy, if lebron happened to accuse some random all-star of juicing, let's say donovan mitchell, and the league said he wasn't and his fellow professional comments ranged from 'i don't know' to 'it's possible, but there's no proof', what would we say?

you can google the match and look at the game's moves and how much time it took to make a move and there's nothing suspicious except it's a rare line Magnus played and Niemann was evidently prepared for it. An autistic guy cheating at online chess in random online matches when he was 16 is not evidence that he cheats in professional over the board chess. it's obviously vastly more difficult to cheat in that situation which is why the "anal beads telling him morse code" seems to be the jocular, yet popular, thinking.

magnus is acting like an idiot about this. he just got smoked by someone who is not nearly as good as him. **** happens, man. mj had some **** shooting nights and lost some big games. magnus lost his game at an important tournament that he claims not to care about because he's already the five time world champion (unprecedented, think 3peat bulls) and doesn't want to defend his title. well, non-champions are trying to beat the best and taking it more seriously. nba is a relevant comparison in some ways because comparing magnus carlsen to a typical 'grandmaster' is like comparing a mvp to a 12th man. they're all good enough to be in the league, but some are just better. doesn't mean those end of the bench guys can't show out every so often against the best competition.

1. Those people some of them themselves are Super GMs. They have extraordinary win rates against average GMS just to paint a picture. It would be very very easy to tell the difference in strength between two players even at that level right from the beginning.

2. Magnus played a dubious opening, what was even more dubious is that Hans knew the line perfectly. It’s like saying I’m going to do something that I don’t do oh wait you have a prefect reply something is up for sure.

3. This isn’t basketball, it’s chess. And yes it’s very elitist even at average level. Wouldn’t be surprised in due time that he was found guilty. Not hard to spot the rat, he didn’t show out he literally somehow perfectly planned and played very accurately against a super dubious line which in laments terms points towards suspicion because it would have been very very sharp early on. Sharper the line = better players have an advantage. Unless Hans gained 200 ELO overnight which is impossible at that level then it reeks of cheating.

4. Han’s backlog of recent games has “engine” like moves encountered for. Deep, deep engine moves for non chess players and chess players alike are nonsensical/impractical and wouldn’t even been thought of.

[DCasey91]

Knowing one of Magnus’ lines is too circumstantial to be cheating on its own. Most GMs do not think Hans cheated. The best explanation Ive heard is Magnus has access to information that other players don’t because of his relationship with chess.com which he had to sign an NDA to access so he can’t say anything.

But also that this could beg a new question, does Magnus have an unfair advantage by accessing classified information about players that not everyone has access to.

In either case, he’s acting very strange by being so dramatic without stating his reasoning. Withdrawing from a tournament like the sigfield in mid tournament is not a small deal. And doing it without explanation is bad form. Coming after he opted not to play in the finals because he’s tired of winning, idk. Hard to get a read on him lately he’s been very unpredictable.

Info or not engines rule. In fact engines makes info on anybody null invoid.

It’s like taking information and trying to learn from a submarine when everyone is a paddle boat that’s how far ahead a chess engine is.

It’s either leaked prep, cheating or all of the above.

[gigantes]

I dont think Hans cheated (anal beads, mobile phone, signals from other people and whatnot)

what I believe is, Hans viciously abuse the use of chess engines, like memorizing entire lines and permutations -- as ridiculous as it may sound. Professional chess players have absurd memory retention capabilities so its not in the realm of impossibility

If that's how Hans did it, I wouldn't call that cheating—too impressive as a feat of memory.

Yes, but pro chess players have been memorising deeply-vetted lines for... hundreds of years, really. With the whole process becoming more and more intense, exacting and advanced over time.

Naturally, loads of pro players have had the ability to do so at superhuman levels, so Niemann would hardly be unique or special in that case. Unless of course he was able to demonstrate that he could do so at a level never seen before, something which he's never come close to proving AFAIK.

Btw, one way that GM's routinely prove that they have special memories is to play simultaneous blindfolded games, in which they have to memorise the boards. Or to play a load of simul games without blindfold, perhaps a few dozen or so. Has Hans ever done anything like that to show his advanced memorisation skills?

Point is this-- the implication isn't that memorising lines is 'cheating.' The implication is that everything else about Niemann looks pretty fishy outside of the times he's played like a chess engine. (just read the comments here)

Not to mention that he has a history of cheating, and lying about it.

[BoatsNZones]

The most basic of cheating countermeasures needs to be no more actual live-streaming (significant delay) and all electronics of those with access to the game (or live feed) locked away.

This is how it is dealt with currently in the most secure current “live” high stakes poker shows like Hustler’s Casino Live (no phones for players or production staff and a 1-2 hour delay).

[JonFromVA]

The most basic of cheating countermeasures needs to be no more actual live-streaming (significant delay) and all electronics of those with access to the game (or live feed) locked away.

This is how it is dealt with currently in the most secure current “live” high stakes poker shows like Hustler’s Casino Live (no phones for players or production staff and a 1-2 hour delay).

Something I find cool about magicians is how they find ways of doing things engineers would solve in a very complex manner with super simple approaches.

So, an engineer could come up with a scheme for like a 6-pin processor, a tiny camera, a battery, an input device and an output device all wired up with tiny wires, hidden in clothing, that would always appear to be off until the input was somehow signaled.

When the input is signaled, the camera would capture the board position, the processor would compute the best move, and the output device would signal the solution.

So, it would allow cheating in a closed room and to detect it you would need to be scanning for electric fields near the player constantly during the match. Maybe a metal detecting wand could detect it? But I imagine that depends how much metal/wires was in the design.

And yet, I suspect a magician (basically a pro-cheater) could come up with something far less complex. Even if that wasn't the case, slight of hand techniques could be combined with a technology based approach to avoid detection. After all, if the device isn't where the metal detector is scanning, it's not going to find it.

[CobraCommander]

If Niemann figured out how to cheat without being caught - good for him. If Carlsen doesn't want to play against him - even better - automatic win for Niemann.

"Good for him"???

What a weird take encouraging cheating in competition.

Yes, it is fun when players/teams find loopholes or fool the referees allowing them to obtain an advantage gained trough their cunningness.
I'd rather have this than someone living like a robot to win.

Yeah so you don’t game or play chess -

and if you do and you take the position “it is fun when people find loop holes” then you miss the whole point why people play chess imo so.......

[CobraCommander]

The most basic of cheating countermeasures needs to be no more actual live-streaming (significant delay) and all electronics of those with access to the game (or live feed) locked away.

This is how it is dealt with currently in the most secure current “live” high stakes poker shows like Hustler’s Casino Live (no phones for players or production staff and a 1-2 hour delay).

Something I find cool about magicians is how they find ways of doing things engineers would solve in a very complex manner with super simple approaches.

So, an engineer could come up with a scheme for like a 6-pin processor, a tiny camera, a battery, an input device and an output device all wired up with tiny wires, hidden in clothing, that would always appear to be off until the input was somehow signaled.

When the input is signaled, the camera would capture the board position, the processor would compute the best move, and the output device would signal the solution.

So, it would allow cheating in a closed room and to detect it you would need to be scanning for electric fields near the player constantly during the match. Maybe a metal detecting wand could detect it? But I imagine that depends how much metal/wires was in the design.

And yet, I suspect a magician (basically a pro-cheater) could come up with something far less complex. Even if that wasn't the case, slight of hand techniques could be combined with a technology based approach to avoid detection. After all, if the device isn't where the metal detector is scanning, it's not going to find it.

But honestly playing in delayed format would solve this for over the board... if someone goes far enough to cheat over the board after alllll this, you gotta think there is an easier way to make 100k a year lol

[leolozon]

"Good for him"???

What a weird take encouraging cheating in competition.

Yes, it is fun when players/teams find loopholes or fool the referees allowing them to obtain an advantage gained trough their cunningness.
I'd rather have this than someone living like a robot to win.

Yeah so you don’t game or play chess -

and if you do and you take the position “it is fun when people find loop holes” then you miss the whole point why people play chess imo so.......

Not only that, but cheating isn't a loop hole. A loop hole is something legal, like Harden baiting refs. Cheating is doing something illegal, like taking steroids or paying a ref under the table to get calls. I'm guessing Bucket22 would love to learn that a team is paying refs. Good for them!