Greater Accomplishment: Lebron's 4 or Duncan's 5?

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Greater Accomplishment?

Lebron's 4
68
22%
Duncan's 5
242
78%
 
Total votes: 310

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Re: Greater Accomplishment: Lebron's 4 or Duncan's 5? 

Post#201 » by nikster » Sat Jan 28, 2023 7:33 pm

MavsDirk41 wrote:
PedroFlu wrote:
MavsDirk41 wrote:

Please explain how he formed a team from scratch? Like he did in LA trading half the team for AD lol?


When he arrived at the Lakers, they were low and down, and he didn't impose a thing.LeBron didnt pull a gun on Jeanie and forced her to do anything. The Lakers tanked several years for that. It was in the franchise's best interest to make the deal, precisely because LeBron is (were) that valuable to a team.



I remember there were rumors of a Davis trade to LA during the 2018/2019 season. James and Rich Paul knew James couldnt win with that team so they colluded with Davis while he was still under contract with the Pelicans. How do you think Ball, Ingram, Hart and the other players felt knowing they were on the trade block because James didnt think they were good enough?[/quote]
Who cares? They objectively weren't good enough, and havent really accomplished anything in the NBA at that point. League is busines and its their job to stay professional even when caught up in trade rumours
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Re: Greater Accomplishment: Lebron's 4 or Duncan's 5? 

Post#202 » by DoctorX » Sat Jan 28, 2023 7:35 pm

JJ_PR wrote:Whoever says Tim Duncan got his rings without help doesn't know basketball. Not only did he have a fantastic supporting cast, he was also led by one of the best coaches the league has ever seen.

LeBron's coaches when he won: Erik Spoelstra, Tyronn Lue & Frank Vogel. Those are not even close to being as good as Pop.


My response to you is my original post which was posted above your post.

I have said it for a while using Pop to discredit Duncan's achievements is lame for a few reasons. First of all, no one uses Phil Jackson, Pat Riley to discredit the achievements of MJ, Magic, Kareem, Shaq, Kobe but when it comes to Duncan, they use the GOAT coach card which is stupid. Secondly coaches in the NBA are grossly overrated. I have always felt players influence 95 percent of wins and losses while at best coaches influence 5 percent of wins/losses by substitutions, matchups, timeouts, working the refs. If anything, Pop screwed up his 5 percent by not playing Duncan in the final seconds of the infamous 2013 game 6 Finals lose to the Heat. Another example of Pop screwing up was 2006 by benching Nazr and Rasho and scrapping the twin tower line up that had won him a title a year earlier and deciding to play small ball against a Mavs team that employed a twin tower lineup with Dirk/Dampier which was profoundly stupid. I still remember shaking my head at Pop playing Bruce Bowen at PF against Dirk. One of the dumbest moves ever and ultimately lead to the Spurs losing that series.

My finals reason is Pop is doing **** right now with the Spurs. He's no miracle worker. You give him crap talent and he will get crap results which is the same with any coach. Pop lucked out Duncan did not have a charismatic personality like MJ, Magic, or Shaq or he would have been overshadowed by Duncan instead of benefiting from the inverse.
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Re: Greater Accomplishment: Lebron's 4 or Duncan's 5? 

Post#203 » by nikster » Sat Jan 28, 2023 7:35 pm

JN61 wrote:Only LeBron fans have used the math and logic of less > more in all the all time discussions.

So I think that is the answer here.

I guess BIll Russell is the GOAT and there is no argument for anybody else then
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Re: Greater Accomplishment: Lebron's 4 or Duncan's 5? 

Post#204 » by nikster » Sat Jan 28, 2023 7:40 pm

MavsDirk41 wrote:
PedroFlu wrote:
MavsDirk41 wrote:
So the team he built was no good anymore cause injuries so leave the team high and dry with your tail between your legs?? Awesome job lol. Nah man i dont think lebron james is bold for his decisions. He doesnt have any devotion to players, fans, organization. Its about him and “his good ole legacy”


I agree LeBron plays for himself. But newsflash, the entire NBA works that way. Guys play for their own legacy. Giannis was non committal the precise season he won for the first time, I believe. Doncic will evaluate and may leave. Kobe tried to leave. Etc etc. It's a business.

Leaving the Cavs and leaving Miami simply potentialized his accomplishments, and it worked really fine at the end.



Bird, Magic, Jordan, Duncan, Dirk, Kobe stayed with the teams that drafted them and won multiple championships, besides Dirk who of course won one. And you can say well if their organizations didnt build teams around them they would have left too but nobody knows that. All we know is they didnt jump ship. James was a FA and left his teams. It is what it is. But im not impressed by it. Sorry, we agree to disagree then.

Kobe literally requested a trade from the Lakers just a few seasons into playing with a garbage roster.
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Re: Greater Accomplishment: Lebron's 4 or Duncan's 5? 

Post#205 » by Patches Perry » Sat Jan 28, 2023 7:41 pm

nikster wrote:
JN61 wrote:Only LeBron fans have used the math and logic of less > more in all the all time discussions.

So I think that is the answer here.

I guess BIll Russell is the GOAT and there is no argument for anybody else then


That's diFfeReNt!!!1
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Re: Greater Accomplishment: Lebron's 4 or Duncan's 5? 

Post#206 » by Rapsin6 » Sat Jan 28, 2023 7:42 pm

What a ridiculous question. The only impressive title Lebron won was with Cleveland. Imagine conspiring to build a video game cheat code team and only win 50%.
Tim won more, and was done by allowing management do their job building a team and working with whoever was put beside him.

No contest. Hakeem’s 2 is more impressive than LBJ.
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Re: Greater Accomplishment: Lebron's 4 or Duncan's 5? 

Post#207 » by Profound23 » Sat Jan 28, 2023 7:45 pm

Rapsin6 wrote:What a ridiculous question. The only impressive title Lebron won was with Cleveland. Imagine conspiring to build a video game cheat code team and only win 50%.
Tim won more, and was done by allowing management do their job building a team and working with whoever was put beside him.

No contest. Hakeem’s 2 is more impressive than LBJ.



Agreed!
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Re: Greater Accomplishment: Lebron's 4 or Duncan's 5? 

Post#208 » by iggymcfrack » Sat Jan 28, 2023 7:50 pm

nikster wrote:
MavsDirk41 wrote:
PedroFlu wrote:
I agree LeBron plays for himself. But newsflash, the entire NBA works that way. Guys play for their own legacy. Giannis was non committal the precise season he won for the first time, I believe. Doncic will evaluate and may leave. Kobe tried to leave. Etc etc. It's a business.

Leaving the Cavs and leaving Miami simply potentialized his accomplishments, and it worked really fine at the end.



Bird, Magic, Jordan, Duncan, Dirk, Kobe stayed with the teams that drafted them and won multiple championships, besides Dirk who of course won one. And you can say well if their organizations didnt build teams around them they would have left too but nobody knows that. All we know is they didnt jump ship. James was a FA and left his teams. It is what it is. But im not impressed by it. Sorry, we agree to disagree then.

Kobe literally requested a trade from the Lakers just a few seasons into playing with a garbage roster.


3 seasons after basically forcing their other top star out of town because he wanted to be the guy. And with a ridiculous amount of time left on his contract too. Bron never did that. He played out his deal and then played where he wanted to.
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Re: Greater Accomplishment: Lebron's 4 or Duncan's 5? 

Post#209 » by kodo » Sat Jan 28, 2023 7:50 pm

Duncan's 5 is more impressive overall, but Lebron had the most impressive single championship.
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Re: Greater Accomplishment: Lebron's 4 or Duncan's 5? 

Post#210 » by Patches Perry » Sat Jan 28, 2023 8:03 pm

Overall it just depends what you value. These are 2 of my probably 5-10 favorite players of all-time, so I don't care to choose. I will say the question is kind of loaded because championships are at some in part, if not wholly, a team accomplishment. The fact that LeBron and Duncan took very different paths to get to roughly the same place means that the difference in path is merely aesthetics and a matter of preference. Staying with 1 team, building them from the ground up, and winning a bunch of titles is awesome. Also, joining a new team every 4-7 years and building them into a championship team from the ground up is also awesome.

That said, I'd summarize the arguments for both like this.

Arguments for Duncan:
1. Turned around the franchise from day one, they were wildly successful for ~20 years without any dropoff, with 5 titles interspersed in those 20 years that he was the foundation of as a cornerstone and leader of the team.
2. Did it with 1 team, which demonstrates a sort of dynasty without reliance on resetting to another team when times get bad
3. Won championships without an ATG superstar talent beside him

Arguments for LeBron:
1. Won with 3 different teams, which shows a certain value as being adaptable and versatile to be able to win without reliance on one particular system
2. He was clearly the best player on all his championship teams, as evidence by winning FMVP 4 out of 4 times, while Duncan only won 3 out of 5.
3. Won championships without an ATG coach/system
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Re: Greater Accomplishment: Lebron's 4 or Duncan's 5? 

Post#211 » by Optms » Sat Jan 28, 2023 8:29 pm

Lebrons 2016 ring by itself is worth more than any of Duncan's rings. That is one of the greatest rings of all time.
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Re: Greater Accomplishment: Lebron's 4 or Duncan's 5? 

Post#212 » by dc » Sat Jan 28, 2023 8:35 pm

Patches Perry wrote:
Arguments for Duncan:
1. Turned around the franchise from day one, they were wildly successful for ~20 years without any dropoff, with 5 titles interspersed in those 20 years that he was the foundation of as a cornerstone and leader of the team.


On the first point, the Spurs weren't a bad franchise when Duncan arrived. They were a perennial 50+ win team and were in contention to go to the finals a couple times. They just happened to have their best player go down for pretty much the entire season and they tanked the rest of the season.

It's not like he went to the Kings or some other team that missed the playoffs 10+ years in a row and then made them winners. The Spurs were already an excellent organization, just not a championship organization at that point. On the other hand, Lebron definitely single-handedly turned around the Cavs during both his stints there.
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Re: Greater Accomplishment: Lebron's 4 or Duncan's 5? 

Post#213 » by MavsDirk41 » Sat Jan 28, 2023 8:51 pm

JJ_PR wrote:Whoever says Tim Duncan got his rings without help doesn't know basketball. Not only did he have a fantastic supporting cast, he was also led by one of the best coaches the league has ever seen.

LeBron's coaches when he won: Erik Spoelstra, Tyronn Lue & Frank Vogel. Those are not even close to being as good as Pop.



Spoelstra is ranked 21st all time right now in wins by coaches in the nba and he is 52. You dont think he will be top 10 by the time he retires and be inducted into the HOF?? No coach excuses for James man lol please
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Re: Greater Accomplishment: Lebron's 4 or Duncan's 5? 

Post#214 » by MavsDirk41 » Sat Jan 28, 2023 8:52 pm

JujitsuFlip wrote:
OriginalRed wrote:
JujitsuFlip wrote:One guy took 3 teams to the top, the other guy took one. It is LeBron in my eyes.

Do you honestly believe Jordan or Duncan couldn't win championships with other teams in their prime if they team hopped like Lebron did?
Maybe, they didn't do it through, so



Ummmm, maybe because they didnt need too?? Just throwing that out there
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Re: Greater Accomplishment: Lebron's 4 or Duncan's 5? 

Post#215 » by MavsDirk41 » Sat Jan 28, 2023 8:55 pm

nikster wrote:
JN61 wrote:Only LeBron fans have used the math and logic of less > more in all the all time discussions.

So I think that is the answer here.

I guess BIll Russell is the GOAT and there is no argument for anybody else then



Well 11 is the most so yea ok maybe so. I wouldnt argue about Russell, Kareem, or Jordan being called the goat. My opinion
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Re: Greater Accomplishment: Lebron's 4 or Duncan's 5? 

Post#216 » by nikster » Sat Jan 28, 2023 8:55 pm

iggymcfrack wrote:
nikster wrote:
MavsDirk41 wrote:

Bird, Magic, Jordan, Duncan, Dirk, Kobe stayed with the teams that drafted them and won multiple championships, besides Dirk who of course won one. And you can say well if their organizations didnt build teams around them they would have left too but nobody knows that. All we know is they didnt jump ship. James was a FA and left his teams. It is what it is. But im not impressed by it. Sorry, we agree to disagree then.

Kobe literally requested a trade from the Lakers just a few seasons into playing with a garbage roster.


3 seasons after basically forcing their other top star out of town because he wanted to be the guy. And with a ridiculous amount of time left on his contract too. Bron never did that. He played out his deal and then played where he wanted to.

And other greats like Kareem and and Olajuwon tried forcing their way out too. Majority of greats who stick with one team have won titles before they ever had free agency decisions to make
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Re: Greater Accomplishment: Lebron's 4 or Duncan's 5? 

Post#217 » by MavsDirk41 » Sat Jan 28, 2023 8:55 pm

nikster wrote:
MavsDirk41 wrote:
PedroFlu wrote:
I agree LeBron plays for himself. But newsflash, the entire NBA works that way. Guys play for their own legacy. Giannis was non committal the precise season he won for the first time, I believe. Doncic will evaluate and may leave. Kobe tried to leave. Etc etc. It's a business.

Leaving the Cavs and leaving Miami simply potentialized his accomplishments, and it worked really fine at the end.



Bird, Magic, Jordan, Duncan, Dirk, Kobe stayed with the teams that drafted them and won multiple championships, besides Dirk who of course won one. And you can say well if their organizations didnt build teams around them they would have left too but nobody knows that. All we know is they didnt jump ship. James was a FA and left his teams. It is what it is. But im not impressed by it. Sorry, we agree to disagree then.

Kobe literally requested a trade from the Lakers just a few seasons into playing with a garbage roster.



And did he leave?
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Re: Greater Accomplishment: Lebron's 4 or Duncan's 5? 

Post#218 » by MavsDirk41 » Sat Jan 28, 2023 8:58 pm

Optms wrote:Lebrons 2016 ring by itself is worth more than any of Duncan's rings. That is one of the greatest rings of all time.



And any of Duncans 5 rings are worth more than the bubble ring where James and Davis beat the juggernaut Heat with Butler, Olynk, Meyers, Duncan Robinson, Haslem, Crowder, Nunn, and rookie Herro.
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Re: Greater Accomplishment: Lebron's 4 or Duncan's 5? 

Post#219 » by nikster » Sat Jan 28, 2023 8:59 pm

MavsDirk41 wrote:
nikster wrote:
MavsDirk41 wrote:

Bird, Magic, Jordan, Duncan, Dirk, Kobe stayed with the teams that drafted them and won multiple championships, besides Dirk who of course won one. And you can say well if their organizations didnt build teams around them they would have left too but nobody knows that. All we know is they didnt jump ship. James was a FA and left his teams. It is what it is. But im not impressed by it. Sorry, we agree to disagree then.

Kobe literally requested a trade from the Lakers just a few seasons into playing with a garbage roster.



And did he leave?

He was under contract and they put together a title team for him. Speaks to his mindset and what likely would have happened if they couldnt. It's not a coincidence that vast majority of greats that stick with one team have won titles before they have any real free agency decisions to make
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Re: Greater Accomplishment: Lebron's 4 or Duncan's 5? 

Post#220 » by OldSchoolNoBull » Sat Jan 28, 2023 9:13 pm

Look, LeBron's not the first or only star to proactively move from team to team. Kareem did it. Barkley did it. Shaq did it. In his own era, CP3 has played for five different teams, Durant for three, Harden four four, Dwight played for three in his prime, etc.

But with the exception of Durant, none have been as naked and as brazen about it as LeBron.

I don't necessarily entirely blame LeBron for leaving the Cavs in 2010, as they had done a lousy job of building around him for most of his time there. But it wasn't a binary choice between the Cavs and the Heat. Every team with cap space had a max offer out to LeBron that summer and there were other good options.

He could've played with Amare as a second option and Gallinari as a third option for Mike D'Antoni in New York.

He could've played with D-Rose as a second option and Boozer as a third option and Noah as a defensive anchor for Thibs in Chicago.

(And keeping in mind that he wouldn't have known in 2010 that both Amare and Derrick's knees would fall apart so soon.)

But he picked the most anti-competitive option, to team up with his chief rival D-Wade, who already a had a ring and a FMVP to his name, and Bosh in Miami.

Then when we went to the Lakers, let's not pretend he & Klutch didn't already have it all planned out. AD requested a trade and named the Lakers as his preference midway through the 2018-19 season, and when the Pelicans wouldn't pull the trigger at the deadline, Klutch and the Lakers publicly whined about how the Pelicans wouldn't do what they wanted them to do.

And when the Lakers finally did trade for AD in the summer of 2019, they were simultaneously using their cap space to make a max offer to Kawhi(and to a lesser extent, Jimmy Butler). This part of LeBron's Lakers tenure has been conveniently forgotten about in this discussion. LeBron was personally recruiting Kawhi(they may have even met in person at some point, not sure about that part). The only reason the Lakers haven't been a LeBron/Kawhi/AD superteam(or a LeBron/Jimmy/AD superteam) for the last four years is because Kawhi and Jimmy said no.

I don't know if any of this should be taken into consideration regarding the question the thread is posing. But I do think it's understandable if it leaves a bad taste in peoples' mouths and makes them lean another way. Certainly Duncan winning five championships with three different supporting casts with the first and last being fifteen years apart is an impressive enough achievement that it should be thought about at least rather than saying "LeBron easily".

All that said, I've no problem stating that LeBron is, at absolute minimum, a top 5 player of all time and that his 2015 and 2016 Finals performances are some of the greatest ever.

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