NBA MVP Discussion Thread 2022-23 (part 4 - The Final MVP Countdown!)

eyeatoma · Post #201 » by **eyeatoma** » Mon Mar 13, 2023 10:14 pm

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BigDan245 · Post #202 » by **BigDan245** » Mon Mar 13, 2023 10:17 pm

I can't wait to be in Ball Arena on March 27th to see the MVP showdown.

Of course one of them probably won't play

Wolfgang630 · Post #203 » by **Wolfgang630** » Mon Mar 13, 2023 10:18 pm

Hopefully Embiid plays in Denver

AussieCeltic · Post #204 » by **AussieCeltic** » Mon Mar 13, 2023 10:24 pm

Embiid has only played at Denver twice in his career. He’ll probably sit it out

eyeatoma · Post #205 » by **eyeatoma** » Mon Mar 13, 2023 10:25 pm

If he wants to win the MVP he better play, otherwise it's as good as done. I'm saying this as an Embiid homer.

BigDan245 · Post #206 » by **BigDan245** » Mon Mar 13, 2023 10:30 pm

eyeatoma wrote:If he wants to win the MVP he better play, otherwise it's as good as done. I'm saying this as an Embiid homer.

I'm going to Denver just to see them play...The NBA really has to start scheduling these games better though.

NBATV game at 9:30 ET on a Monday. This should be one of the most hyped matchups all season and it's relegated to NBATV. :nonono:

eyeatoma · Post #207 » by **eyeatoma** » Mon Mar 13, 2023 10:32 pm

BigDan245 wrote:
eyeatoma wrote:If he wants to win the MVP he better play, otherwise it's as good as done. I'm saying this as an Embiid homer.

I'm going to Denver just to see them play...The NBA really has to start scheduling these games better though.

NBATV game at 9:30 ET on a Monday. This should be one of the most hyped matchups all season and it's relegated to NBATV.

Pretty confident one of ESPN/TNT will pick it up. There have been some schedule changes this year...

Wolfgang630 · Post #208 » by **Wolfgang630** » Mon Mar 13, 2023 10:50 pm

Yeah this game should be on ESPN or TNT.

AleksandarN · Post #209 » by **AleksandarN** » Mon Mar 13, 2023 11:44 pm

eyeatoma wrote:
iggymcfrack wrote:
eyeatoma wrote:
Better teammates, more assists. Much higher chance of MPJ, Murray, and KCP hitting those shots over the players they had last year.

OK? So if he looks like an even better player than he did last year having somewhat competent teammates, imagine how good he'd look with the kind of teammates that Embiid and Giannis have. He still clearly has the weakest teammates of the bunch.

I'm saying his numbers are dependent on his teammates, more than the other two candidates.

If that’s so then he teammates would shoot similar percentages with or without Jokic. You would think

AleksandarN · Post #210 » by **AleksandarN** » Mon Mar 13, 2023 11:46 pm

eyeatoma wrote:
AleksandarN wrote:
eyeatoma wrote:Latest Bill Simmons Podcast, Bill thinks Embiid could win it. Thinks he's on a tear, and recency matters. Thinks that he's having an all time scoring season especially as a center. Thinks Philly, Denver, Milwaukee are all playing for seeding so these games matter. Ryen says he's not sure, but is not decided, easily could see it as Embiid as well. Both say that this is going to go down to the wire. This is like Westbrook winning the MVP at the end with a bunch of clutch performances the last month.

Oh I thought it was some kind of Zach Lower/Ringer conspiracy getting people to vote for Jokic. Lol
It is. I don't trust Bill and I do think they have ridiculous sway.

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Oh what conspiracy are you on now? I can’t keep up.

eyeatoma · Post #211 » by **eyeatoma** » Tue Mar 14, 2023 12:42 am

AleksandarN wrote:
eyeatoma wrote:
AleksandarN wrote:Oh I thought it was some kind of Zach Lower/Ringer conspiracy getting people to vote for Jokic. Lol
It is. I don't trust Bill and I do think they have ridiculous sway.

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Oh what conspiracy are you on now? I can’t keep up.

I wouldn't say there is a conspiracy but like the article I had shared there is definitely bias involved.

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bstein14 · Post #212 » by **bstein14** » Tue Mar 14, 2023 2:12 am

Interesting that the NBA wants players to play a minimum number of games to be eligible for MVP or other awards... makes a lot of sense. Hopefully they don't go too low with it.... perhaps about 65 games plays at least (in an 82 game season, or equivalent percentage if a different number of games are played that season).... or even could require at least 80% which is 4 out or 5 games need to be played on average.... which would bump it up to 66 games needed in an 82 game season. If you're not playing at least 80% you probably shouldn't get the award.

DutchManDanFan · Post #213 » by **DutchManDanFan** » Tue Mar 14, 2023 8:09 am

iggymcfrack wrote:
Purch wrote:So if Jokic wins again, I definitely would still feel last season was the least deserving. This year I feel like Embiid should get it, but if the voters are going based on last year's criteria than there's no reason Jokic wouldn't get it again. If you gave it to him with great Stats and the 6th seed, how can you justify not giving him it with great stats and the 1st seed?

That's the thing. If I were to compare Giannis this year to Giannis last year, I'd say he clearly had a better year last season by pretty much any metric you want to use. If I were to compare Embiid this year to Embiid last year, it's a lot closer, but again I would be more impressed with him last season. Jokic? This season has been not just better, but massively better. His passing has hit a whole new level that lifts the players around him far more than it did before. And as you mentioned his team went from the 6 seed to the 1 seed. If Jokic won the vote 65 to 25 to 9 last year and he got MUCH better as his competition got worse, how do you not give it to him?

Every Bucks fan will tell you Giannis is better than last year. So far for all the metrics...

The difference? A lot more minutes with scrubs this year.
For Jokic it's the opposite. Coincidence? Better team mates make more shots so more assists and less need to take bad shots himself. A simple explanation.

But keep staring at those metrics... :lol:

iggymcfrack · Post #214 » by **iggymcfrack** » Tue Mar 14, 2023 8:36 am

DutchManDanFan wrote:
iggymcfrack wrote:
Purch wrote:So if Jokic wins again, I definitely would still feel last season was the least deserving. This year I feel like Embiid should get it, but if the voters are going based on last year's criteria than there's no reason Jokic wouldn't get it again. If you gave it to him with great Stats and the 6th seed, how can you justify not giving him it with great stats and the 1st seed?

That's the thing. If I were to compare Giannis this year to Giannis last year, I'd say he clearly had a better year last season by pretty much any metric you want to use. If I were to compare Embiid this year to Embiid last year, it's a lot closer, but again I would be more impressed with him last season. Jokic? This season has been not just better, but massively better. His passing has hit a whole new level that lifts the players around him far more than it did before. And as you mentioned his team went from the 6 seed to the 1 seed. If Jokic won the vote 65 to 25 to 9 last year and he got MUCH better as his competition got worse, how do you not give it to him?

Every Bucks fan will tell you Giannis is better than last year. So far for all the metrics...

The difference? A lot more minutes with scrubs this year.
For Jokic it's the opposite. Coincidence? Better team mates make more shots so more assists and less need to take bad shots himself. A simple explanation.

But keep staring at those metrics...

Oh come on, if a Bucks fan would say Giannis is better than last year, it’s just because they want him to win the MVP. It’s not just stuff that’s teammate dependent. His steals are the lowest they’ve been since his second year in the league. His blocks are the lowest they’ve been since his rookie season. His free throws are down 7% from last year. His turnovers are at a career high. He’s honestly worse at every single measurable quality except rebounding which is slightly up from last year and still way down from his MVP seasons. Scoring-wise, he’s taking 1.9 more FGA and 1.3 more FTA a game to score an extra 1.3 points a game which is NOT a good thing.

DutchManDanFan · Post #215 » by **DutchManDanFan** » Tue Mar 14, 2023 10:05 am

iggymcfrack wrote:Oh come on, if a Bucks fan would say Giannis is better than last year, it’s just because they want him to win the MVP. It’s not just stuff that’s teammate dependent. His steals are the lowest they’ve been since his second year in the league. His blocks are the lowest they’ve been since his rookie season. His free throws are down 7% from last year. His turnovers are at a career high. He’s honestly worse at every single measurable quality except rebounding which is slightly up from last year and still way down from his MVP seasons. Scoring-wise, he’s taking 1.9 more FGA and 1.3 more FTA a game to score an extra 1.3 points a game which is NOT a good thing.

Yeah sure... Every single measurable quality? Try team record. And think of the players he shared a lot of time on the court with:
J. Nwora: 191 minutes, net rating -1.8. Nwora = -2.7 pg in 39 games for the Bucks.
M. Beauchamp (rookie): 217 mins, net rating +0.6. Beauchamp = -1.6 pg in 41 games.
G. Hill, 287 mins, net rating +1.4. Hill = +0.5 pg in 35 games.
S. Ibaka: 53 mins, net rating -0.9. Ibaka = -1.6 pg in 16 games.

That's a lot of minutes with players the Bucks have dumped or won't play in the playoffs.

And only 1/4 of these minutes were together with Jrue:
J. Holiday - G. Antetokounmpo - J. Nwora: 45 minutes.
J. Holiday - G. Antetokounmpo - M. Beauchamp: 77 minutes.
J. Holiday - G. Antetokounmpo - G. Hill: 78 minutes.
J. Holiday - G. Antetokounmpo - S. Ibaka: 13 minutes.

Playing this many minutes with these players and without Jrue and Khris has a big effect on the metrics you love so much.
And who cares about steals or blocks if you have other ways to win games? Besides, Giannis had some games where he left early. Not good for his averages.

Numbers don't tell the whole story. They can be very misleading if you don't know what's going on for real.
I don't care for his MVP chance. I think that ship has sailed away for him. Although... if you watched him yesterday...

Bum Adebayo · Post #216 » by **Bum Adebayo** » Tue Mar 14, 2023 11:44 am

Last season Jokic had an insane season, more than this season, he had an insane 11.78 RPM! haven't checked all years, but at least from recent years, only Curry got close in the 2015 season, the main difference is that his defense was on another level last year compared to this year.

Exp0sed · Post #217 » by **Exp0sed** » Tue Mar 14, 2023 12:19 pm

DutchManDanFan wrote:
iggymcfrack wrote:

Yeah sure... Every single measurable quality? Try team record. And think of the players he shared a lot of time on the court with:
J. Nwora: 191 minutes, net rating -1.8. Nwora = -2.7 pg in 39 games for the Bucks.
M. Beauchamp (rookie): 217 mins, net rating +0.6. Beauchamp = -1.6 pg in 41 games.
G. Hill, 287 mins, net rating +1.4. Hill = +0.5 pg in 35 games.
S. Ibaka: 53 mins, net rating -0.9. Ibaka = -1.6 pg in 16 games.

That's a lot of minutes with players the Bucks have dumped or won't play in the playoffs.

And only 1/4 of these minutes were together with Jrue:
J. Holiday - G. Antetokounmpo - J. Nwora: 45 minutes.
J. Holiday - G. Antetokounmpo - M. Beauchamp: 77 minutes.
J. Holiday - G. Antetokounmpo - G. Hill: 78 minutes.
J. Holiday - G. Antetokounmpo - S. Ibaka: 13 minutes.

Playing this many minutes with these players and without Jrue and Khris has a big effect on the metrics you love so much.
And who cares about steals or blocks if you have other ways to win games? Besides, Giannis had some games where he left early. Not good for his averages.

Numbers don't tell the whole story. They can be very misleading if you don't know what's going on for real.
I don't care for his MVP chance. I think that ship has sailed away for him. Although... if you watched him yesterday...

ha, you think Jokic hasn't played with scrubs this year?

Jeff Green might be the worst player in any playoff team rotation - 235 mins with Jokic

are Nwora or Hill better than Green or Vlatko Cancar? how about Ish Smith or Bones?
spoiler: they're are the same caliber of players (i mean producion wise this season, not career wise)

Smith has 66 mins with the Joker, Bones played 279 and Cancar 344

there are others btw, like Rookie Braun but you get the picture

Infinite Llamas · Post #218 » by **Infinite Llamas** » Tue Mar 14, 2023 1:01 pm

DutchManDanFan wrote:
iggymcfrack wrote:Oh come on, if a Bucks fan would say Giannis is better than last year, it’s just because they want him to win the MVP. It’s not just stuff that’s teammate dependent. His steals are the lowest they’ve been since his second year in the league. His blocks are the lowest they’ve been since his rookie season. His free throws are down 7% from last year. His turnovers are at a career high. He’s honestly worse at every single measurable quality except rebounding which is slightly up from last year and still way down from his MVP seasons. Scoring-wise, he’s taking 1.9 more FGA and 1.3 more FTA a game to score an extra 1.3 points a game which is NOT a good thing.

Yeah sure... Every single measurable quality? Try team record. And think of the players he shared a lot of time on the court with:
J. Nwora: 191 minutes, net rating -1.8. Nwora = -2.7 pg in 39 games for the Bucks.
M. Beauchamp (rookie): 217 mins, net rating +0.6. Beauchamp = -1.6 pg in 41 games.
G. Hill, 287 mins, net rating +1.4. Hill = +0.5 pg in 35 games.
S. Ibaka: 53 mins, net rating -0.9. Ibaka = -1.6 pg in 16 games.

That's a lot of minutes with players the Bucks have dumped or won't play in the playoffs.

And only 1/4 of these minutes were together with Jrue:
J. Holiday - G. Antetokounmpo - J. Nwora: 45 minutes.
J. Holiday - G. Antetokounmpo - M. Beauchamp: 77 minutes.
J. Holiday - G. Antetokounmpo - G. Hill: 78 minutes.
J. Holiday - G. Antetokounmpo - S. Ibaka: 13 minutes.

Playing this many minutes with these players and without Jrue and Khris has a big effect on the metrics you love so much.
And who cares about steals or blocks if you have other ways to win games? Besides, Giannis had some games where he left early. Not good for his averages.

Numbers don't tell the whole story. They can be very misleading if you don't know what's going on for real.
I don't care for his MVP chance. I think that ship has sailed away for him. Although... if you watched him yesterday...

Ummmm…Jokic’s efficiency went up last year from his first MVP season and he spent the majority of his minutes with Will Barton and Monte Morris. So that’s no excuse.

Moreover, point Giannis was in full effect and it was a mixed bag for sure. It’s no coincidence that the Bucks won a championship with Giannis playing off of Jrue, but Giannis still seems to try and do everything himself sometimes. I don’t know if that’s coaching or his own stubbornness. That recent 76ers game was a great example where the team was playing great and moving the ball and Giannis just dominated the ball in the fourth and they lost. I realize that guys like Grayson Allen aren’t the most reliable of shooters but you feed the hot hand.

jokeboy86 · Post #219 » by **jokeboy86** » Tue Mar 14, 2023 1:39 pm

This MVP race should easily surpass '90 and '99 as the closest in history. And if everything plays out this might be the first time since '88 that the same 3 players finish top 3 in MVP for a 2nd straight year. Also we might not see another North American born MVP for a very long time.

Wolfgang630 · Post #220 » by **Wolfgang630** » Tue Mar 14, 2023 1:41 pm

jokeboy86 wrote:This MVP race should easily surpass '90 and '99 as the closest in history. And if everything plays out this might be the first time since '88 that the same 3 players finish top 3 in MVP for a 2nd straight year. Also we might not see another North American born MVP for a very long time.

We’re definitely going to see the same 3 players top 3. It’s a drop off after Jokic, Giannis and Embiid. Tatum continues to have bad games. Lukas team sucks and he’s missing games.

2 questions- 1) Who WILL win MVP -- 2) Who SHOULD win MVP (vote for 2)