Jokic's teammates failed him...AGAIN.

[dhsilv2]

This is so tiresome. Every time a star loses his biggest fans claim his teammates suck and failed him and his haters overrate his teammates to make him look good.

Jokic's third quarter was rough. The supporting cast was brutal.

Jokic also played 47 minutes, shot 11/18 inside the arc, smashed the boards on either end and routinely couldn't get guys to buy a bucket on his passes. There's a limit to what you can do. Murray also sucked in the third and they had no bench contribution of consequence. He had a very good overall game, but Denver just couldn't get it done in the second half and Minnesota woke up offensively after the half.

Yes, Jokic didn't have a Lebron-Game-6-vs-Boston game. But he's been carrying this squad through this series while Murray has sucked. As has MPJ. As has Reggie Jackson. You don't one-man-vs a team playing the way Minny was playing. They needed to have put this away in Game 6, or not have crapped themselves to open the series, and neither of those things happened.

Denver is not a dynastic-level roster; those are comprised of better depth and secondary punch. It is what it is. But yeah, that aside, Jokic's scoring in the 3rd quarter was also rough, and that hurt them. But like, that's equivalent to complaining about Jordan in 88 versus the Pistons.

29 and 36 to open the series. Then 24, 23 and 26 (on 40%, 50% and 45.5% FG) to close the series in 3 straight Pistons wins. We don't hear about that a lot because of what happened later in his career. Or Kareem pre-Magic in L.A. They took their lumps at the time, as will Jokic now, but ultimately it's more about the team not showing up than the focal star.

In so many threads, people are hunting for reasons to push back against Jokic, which gets frustrating. They're acting like this is 84 Tragic Johnson, or Bird against Philly in 82 (or Milwaukee in 83), and it's not.

This. Jokic and Murray both had a rough 3rd quarter but they were also the only two Nuggets who did anything offensively. The rest of the Nuggets didn't do anything on the offensive end. 21 points on 8/28 shooting is bad. Really, really bad.

Allow me to illustrate how bad it was by comparing it to what we saw in the other game 7:

Josh Hart (playing through an abdominal injury), Precious Achiuwa and Miles McBride scored 22 points on 9/30 shooting. And that's just 3 players. That's a guy who probably shouldn't be playing (Hart), a back-up big (Achiuwa) and a guard on a rookie contract (McBride). Those 3 should NOT be matching the offensive production of every single Nuggets player other than Jokic and Murray. Aaron Gordon and MPJ are part of that rest of the Nuggets group.

Hell, Alec Burks outscored that entire rest of the Nuggets group on his own. He was really damn good with 26 points on 8/13 shooting.

Jokic and Murray definitely deserve criticism for the loss. After all, the Nuggets did collectively blow what was a 15-point lead at half time in a game 7 at home. But basketball is still a team game and it's pretty obvious that the rest of the team failed to produce offensively.

I still can't get past looking back at the box score to this one.

21 points 18 fouls by the non Jokic/Murray group.

In what freaking world do all but 2 starters have nearly the same fouls as points? I'm not even saying the fouls were bad per say. Just that you can have a line like that.

[Sedale Threatt]

I know people are generally blaming Nuggets bench but I don't think they were the reason they lost series..Nuggets actually lost the starting lineup minutes in most of the series. Nuggets bench did better than what was expected of them...Wolves bench also didn't do a ton...Kyle Anderson was disaster, NAW struggled. Naz also was on and off..even yesterday, Naz was quite bad in first half, he came alive in 2nd half only.

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It was not just the bench, imo. It was the rest of Denver's starters outside of Jokic and Murray. Aaron Gordon had 4 points on 2/5 shooting in an elimination game. That's comparable to that Tobias Harris performance in game 6 earlier this year. MPJ had 7 points on 3/12 shooting. KCP had 5 points on 2/7 shooting.

Aaron Gordon and KCP combined for a total of 82 minutes and scored a total of 10 points on 4/12 shooting. The Nuggets lost by 8. If the Nuggets just got a little bit more offensive production from their other 3 starters, they could have won.

Minny, on the other hand, had every single starter in double-digits. It's a team game. Minny was able to produce as a team. Denver wasn't.

And Porter had 7 on 3-for-12 ... so bad he said he apologized to the team after.

This is how it broke down:

Jokic & Murray - 69 points, 26-55 FGs
Everybody else - 21 points, 8-28 FGs

The main two could have shot better, especially on 3s. But you're not winning anything against a defensive team like that when you get virtually nothing from the rest of your lineup.

[Sedale Threatt]

I know people are generally blaming Nuggets bench but I don't think they were the reason they lost series..Nuggets actually lost the starting lineup minutes in most of the series. Nuggets bench did better than what was expected of them...Wolves bench also didn't do a ton...Kyle Anderson was disaster, NAW struggled. Naz also was on and off..even yesterday, Naz was quite bad in first half, he came alive in 2nd half only.

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Justin Holiday led the Nuggets last night with a plus-10 despite putting up 0 points, 0 rebounds and 0 assists in 9 minutes.

So that tells you what raw plus-minus is worth.

[tsherkin]

I still can't get past looking back at the box score to this one.

21 points 18 fouls by the non Jokic/Murray group.

In what freaking world do all but 2 starters have nearly the same fouls as points? I'm not even saying the fouls were bad per say. Just that you can have a line like that.

It was savage. The rest of the team just folded right up their own behinds.

It reminds me a little of the pre-good-Kobe Lakers, right? Shaq was obviously amazing, and he had some decent guys around him, but they just weren't getting it done at the right time. Story narrative isn't quite the same, these Nuggets are coming off a title, but it's sort of the same deal. You need a team to win it, otherwise you just get stuck in the mud.

[10DayContract]

The LeBronification of Jokic

The fact that so many are gleefully calling him overrated after this L is the ultimate LeBronification of Jokic.

I mean, he is overrated by many. I was told Jokic WAS THE BEST PLAYER IN HISTORY by some of ya'll.

C'mon.

[iggymcfrack]

Honestly, I think it's time for Porter to be done in Denver. Statistically he was better his first 2 years in the league than his last two. He's on a huge salary, he doesn't pass, he's not a particularly good defender, and now he's not even making shots? He was MIA the whole series. Nuggets have the offensive GOAT in his prime, it's not time to **** around any more. They need to just attach a bunch of picks and get a true 3&D guy with the speed to cover elite perimeter scorers like Ant. Could they do Porter + 4 1st rounders for Bridges and depth? How about for Dejounte Murray and DeAndre Hunter?

Like I get wanting to keep everyone together after the championship for continuity, but once you lose, you have to see if there are any easy upgrades. I think if you go all-in with those picks, you could make the Nuggets a lot better pretty easily.

[bb22]

I don’t think anyone had a really drastic drop in their ppg, other than MPJ. Most of the T wolves starters also averaged a little less than their season averages. Jokic was incredible on the floor, no doubt. But sometimes leadership requires more than just what you produce on court. It’s how you address the media, what goes on in the locker room before and after games. No idea what type of leader Joker is off the court. He’s certainly loved by his teammates, but still room to grow as a leader in guessing. You can’t blame him, though. He’s insanely talented but he’s not obsessed with basketball like MJ, Kobe, Lebron. He’s already cemented himself as like a top 20 of all time if he retired tomorrow.

[dhsilv2]

I still can't get past looking back at the box score to this one.

21 points 18 fouls by the non Jokic/Murray group.

In what freaking world do all but 2 starters have nearly the same fouls as points? I'm not even saying the fouls were bad per say. Just that you can have a line like that.

It was savage. The rest of the team just folded right up their own behinds.

It reminds me a little of the pre-good-Kobe Lakers, right? Shaq was obviously amazing, and he had some decent guys around him, but they just weren't getting it done at the right time. Story narrative isn't quite the same, these Nuggets are coming off a title, but it's sort of the same deal. You need a team to win it, otherwise you just get stuck in the mud.

Even like the 99 lakers had Fox and Horry off the bench in the playoffs.

Look at even this game.

https://www.basketball-reference.com/boxscores/199905190SAS.html

You still had Rice and Kobe do something. The bench still got 10 points.

If go back another year you had Eddie Jones and at least Shaq had Elden Campbell vs Jordan off the bench. And that was without a doubt in my mind a weak era in terms of team depth.

I'm sure there's a line like this somewhere in history and maybe even the 2 guys won the game. But it's just staggering to look at, especially in this era of higher scoring games. 5 points off the bench AND 3 starters combined for 16 total?

[tsherkin]

If go back another year you had Eddie Jones and at least Shaq had Elden Campbell vs Jordan off the bench. And that was without a doubt in my mind a weak era in terms of team depth.

I'm sure there's a line like this somewhere in history and maybe even the 2 guys won the game. But it's just staggering to look at, especially in this era of higher scoring games. 5 points off the bench AND 3 starters combined for 16 total?

Indeed.

[kodo]

OMG Joker still hasn’t beat a team with 50+ wins

Yeah he has some work to do before we crown him as a GOAT candidate.

[iggymcfrack]

The LeBronification of Jokic

The fact that so many are gleefully calling him overrated after this L is the ultimate LeBronification of Jokic.

I mean, he is overrated by many. I was told Jokic WAS THE BEST PLAYER IN HISTORY by some of ya'll.

C'mon.

Hardly anyone was saying that. The gap defensively between Jokic and MJ or Bron is huge. Now best offensive player is something people actually say and I think he has a very good case. Like how many players get picked apart after putting up 34/19/7 in a very low scoring Game 7? Can you think of one ever other than LeBron until now?

[Chessboxer]

Nah we're not going to do this. Jokic had every opportunity to win this series. He and his team were up 3-2 and the Nuggets lost game 6 by a record margin. He was up 20 in game 7 on his home floor, lost by the largest second half comeback in game 7 history. Not to mention 3 of the Wolves victories in this series came on the road in the Nuggets home building.

He was even given a pass by the league because Murray should have been suspended in game 3 for the heat pack incident. However I'm sure the league did not want the MVP to go down 0-3 the same week he won the award for the 3rd time. Draymond got suspended in the Finals for 2 games, so suspending Murray would not have set some precedent.

He deserves the same criticism other superstars get(Steph/Giannis/Lebron etc), but of course he will get a pass like he always does. I'm no Lebron fan in the slightest, but he would have gotten annihilated if he lost a game 7 at home up 20.

[Synciere]

1. Jokic is not prime MJ or Lebron. He’s going to be an All Timer, but his playoff resume is lacking, especially considering competition. He’s yet to beat a 50 win team.

2. This is less about the Nuggets role players failing and more about Minnesota just having that great of a defense. Shift the Nuggets blame to Timberwolves appreciation.

3. Games like this are when a guy like Porter is supposed to step up. He needs to play like an All Star for this team to really thrive.

man...that 50 win team is very misleading. In 2020, both Clippers & Jazz were 50 pace win teams...Clippers were on track to win 55-57 games but there were no 82 games due to covid. Last year's Suns team they beat was better than lot of 50 win teams that we have seen

No, it's not. You can't just extrapolate because as more games are played, things like attrition occurs. The Clippers are always on a 55 win pace until someone, namely Kawhi, gets hurt and now they're weakened in the playoffs. The Jazz team was young and they tend to stumble down the stretch also. That's like saying we don't need to vote because we have polls. It doesn't work that way.

[10DayContract]

Jokic was great in Game 7. His NBA Efficiency number was above 40. That's greatness and no one else played at that level in this contest, particularly on his team. Including Murray.

Minny won despite Ant going 6/24. That says a lot.

Denver needs more talented depth. They almost got away with skimming on that, but it caught up to them in the end.

Ya, but Ant was as dominant defensively as Jokic was offensively. And he was like that the entire series.

he shot 6/24 but locked down the perimeter. Many are glossing over that. Ant played great honestly. He was dominant while missing tons of shots. That says something.

[ghillphx]

Can this 3 time MVP get at least ONE former all-star to help him?

They seriously have to tweak that roster.

His help was unbelievably bad in a game 7 at home.

Cry more. They won a title last year, don't be so naive and entitled.

[VFX]

I'm sorry, but you're up 20 at home in the third quarter, you're the MVP, best player in the league. You can't lose that game. LeBron and Steph would be getting KILLED. Jokic is awesome, probably top 15 player all time. But, he has to be criticized if people want him to be in the goat debate. You can't lose that game, period.

And he should be criticized...people come out loving Jokic losing with their hot takes.

The reality?
The Timberwolves are a better, more talented, team and its not really a comparison.

Gobert - DPoY 3x all star
KAT- 4x all star
NR - 6MotY
Ant - One of the best young scorers in the league

It's almost like half this forum looks at individual accolades 90% of the time and forgets basketball is a team game, while getting caught up in GOAT debates like 10 year olds.

[Peregrine01]

Honestly, I think it's time for Porter to be done in Denver. Statistically he was better his first 2 years in the league than his last two. He's on a huge salary, he doesn't pass, he's not a particularly good defender, and now he's not even making shots? He was MIA the whole series. Nuggets have the offensive GOAT in his prime, it's not time to **** around any more. They need to just attach a bunch of picks and get a true 3&D guy with the speed to cover elite perimeter scorers like Ant. Could they do Porter + 4 1st rounders for Bridges and depth? How about for Dejounte Murray and DeAndre Hunter?

Like I get wanting to keep everyone together after the championship for continuity, but once you lose, you have to see if there are any easy upgrades. I think if you go all-in with those picks, you could make the Nuggets a lot better pretty easily.

Yeah, they gotta move on from MPJ no matter how bad his trade value is. He makes some of the most bone-headed plays I've ever seen. It seems like he only knows two things when he gets the ball: shoot or take a one-dribble step-back - rinse and repeat. Missed a wide-open swing to the corner I don't know how many times that broke the Nuggets' momentum in this series.

[iggymcfrack]

Honestly, I think it's time for Porter to be done in Denver. Statistically he was better his first 2 years in the league than his last two. He's on a huge salary, he doesn't pass, he's not a particularly good defender, and now he's not even making shots? He was MIA the whole series. Nuggets have the offensive GOAT in his prime, it's not time to **** around any more. They need to just attach a bunch of picks and get a true 3&D guy with the speed to cover elite perimeter scorers like Ant. Could they do Porter + 4 1st rounders for Bridges and depth? How about for Dejounte Murray and DeAndre Hunter?

Like I get wanting to keep everyone together after the championship for continuity, but once you lose, you have to see if there are any easy upgrades. I think if you go all-in with those picks, you could make the Nuggets a lot better pretty easily.

Yeah, they gotta move on from MPJ no matter how bad his trade value is. He makes some of the most bone-headed plays I've ever seen. It seems like he only knows two things when he gets the ball: shoot or take a one-dribble step-back - rinse and repeat. Missed a wide-open swing to the corner I don't know how many times that broke the Nuggets' momentum in this series.

Yeah, it really stands out when everyone else passes so well. It’s like Porter plays the game with blinders on or something. He hasn’t learned a single thing since he was at Missouri.

[HotRocks34]

Jokic was great in Game 7. His NBA Efficiency number was above 40. That's greatness and no one else played at that level in this contest, particularly on his team. Including Murray.

Minny won despite Ant going 6/24. That says a lot.

Denver needs more talented depth. They almost got away with skimming on that, but it caught up to them in the end.

Ya, but Ant was as dominant defensively as Jokic was offensively. And he was like that the entire series.

he shot 6/24 but locked down the perimeter. Many are glossing over that. Ant played great honestly. He was dominant while missing tons of shots. That says something.

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[Synciere]

Honestly, I think it's time for Porter to be done in Denver. Statistically he was better his first 2 years in the league than his last two. He's on a huge salary, he doesn't pass, he's not a particularly good defender, and now he's not even making shots? He was MIA the whole series. Nuggets have the offensive GOAT in his prime, it's not time to **** around any more. They need to just attach a bunch of picks and get a true 3&D guy with the speed to cover elite perimeter scorers like Ant. Could they do Porter + 4 1st rounders for Bridges and depth? How about for Dejounte Murray and DeAndre Hunter?

Like I get wanting to keep everyone together after the championship for continuity, but once you lose, you have to see if there are any easy upgrades. I think if you go all-in with those picks, you could make the Nuggets a lot better pretty easily.

Yeah, they gotta move on from MPJ no matter how bad his trade value is. He makes some of the most bone-headed plays I've ever seen. It seems like he only knows two things when he gets the ball: shoot or take a one-dribble step-back - rinse and repeat. Missed a wide-open swing to the corner I don't know how many times that broke the Nuggets' momentum in this series.

Yeah, it really stands out when everyone else passes so well. It’s like Porter plays the game with blinders on or something. He hasn’t learned a single thing since he was at Missouri.

The problem with Porter is who's going to take on that contract? He's due almost 120 million over the next three years. He has to be near All Star to be worth that. What's worse, they have to extend Murray soon also.