Can we safely say Jokic is the best offensive player ever?

[Jamaaliver]

Jokic is one of the best ever.

No argument there.

Is he the singular best offensive player ever?
IDK

For one thing, offensive numbers are inflated in this modern era. There's no disputing that fact.

Also, I suspect that a part of Jokic's dominance is that he doesn't have many peers at his size/position to challenge him on either end of the court.

Could Jokic average these numbers in a league where he had to face off against:

• Kareem,
• Hakeem,
• Robert Parish,
• Bill Walton,
• Pat Ewing,
• David Robinson,
• Shaquille,
• Tim Duncan,
• Dikembe,
• or Ben Wallace every week?

It's really hard to say...

[Bergmaniac]

Also, I suspect that a part of Jokic's dominance is that he doesn't have many peers at his size/position to challenge him on either end of the court.

Could Jokic average these numbers in a league where he had to face off against:

• Kareem,
• Hakeem,
• Robert Parish,
• Bill Walton,
• Pat Ewing,
• David Robinson,
• Shaquille,
• Tim Duncan,
• Dikembe,
• or Ben Wallace every week?

It's really hard to say...

Noone ever had to do this. Kareem retired when Ben Wallace was 15 and Duncan was 13. Walton retired even earlier and was mostly injured througout the 80s.

And it's not like Jordan or Bird for example had to face elite defenders every week either. Even Bill Simmons, a huge Bird fanboy, states in his Book of Basketball:

The dirty little secret of Bird’s success: fantastic timing. His heyday (1980–88) coincided with the last generation of all-offense/no-defense forwards (Dantley, English, etc.), and that’s not counting all the fringe swingmen (Ernie Grunfeld, Gene Banks, etc.) and clumsy power forwards (Kent Benson, Ben Poquette, etc.) torched by Bird on a routine basis.

[Larry_Russell]

Jokic is the gretaest floor raiser of all time.

He is top 5 easily for most gifted offensive players of all time taking everything into account.

[Sedale Threatt]

Jokic is one of the best ever.

No argument there.

Is he the singular best offensive player ever?
IDK

For one thing, offensive numbers are inflated in this modern era. There's no disputing that fact.

Also, I suspect that a part of Jokic's dominance is that he doesn't have many peers at his size/position to challenge him on either end of the court.

Could Jokic average these numbers in a league where he had to face off against:

• Kareem,
• Hakeem,
• Robert Parish,
• Bill Walton,
• Pat Ewing,
• David Robinson,
• Shaquille,
• Tim Duncan,
• Dikembe,
• or Ben Wallace every week?

It's really hard to say...

To be fair, you're lumping a bunch of dudes together from different eras spanning three decades. For example, Kareem's defense in the 80s was a far cry from his defense in the 70s. Wallace was 3 or 4 years old when Walton was at his peak. And so on.

Unless you go back to the 50s and 60s where the league was so small teams were playing each other 10-plus times per season, there's never been any point where you're going to face a Hall of Fame defender on a weekly basis.

Looking at the 90s specifically, Jokic's biggest challenge wouldn't have been opposing centers but the glacial pace and lack of spacing. He undoubtedly benefits massively from improvements in those areas, like everybody else in this era.

But then you plug him into the 80s when the pace was even faster and teams didn't put 1/10th of the effort into defense as they do now, especially from a tactical standpoint, and he would have absolutely dominated.

[TravisScott55]

Wilt had a season where he averaged 24, 24 and 8

[Larry_Russell]

Also, I suspect that a part of Jokic's dominance is that he doesn't have many peers at his size/position to challenge him on either end of the court.

Could Jokic average these numbers in a league where he had to face off against:

• Kareem,
• Hakeem,
• Robert Parish,
• Bill Walton,
• Pat Ewing,
• David Robinson,
• Shaquille,
• Tim Duncan,
• Dikembe,
• or Ben Wallace every week?

It's really hard to say...

Noone ever had to do this. Kareem retired when Ben Wallace was 15 and Duncan was 13. Walton retired even earlier and was mostly injured througout the 80s.

And it's not like Jordan or Bird for example had to face elite defenders every week either. Even Bill Simmons, a huge Bird fanboy, states in his Book of Basketball:

The dirty little secret of Bird’s success: fantastic timing. His heyday (1980–88) coincided with the last generation of all-offense/no-defense forwards (Dantley, English, etc.), and that’s not counting all the fringe swingmen (Ernie Grunfeld, Gene Banks, etc.) and clumsy power forwards (Kent Benson, Ben Poquette, etc.) torched by Bird on a routine basis.

Jordan always faced great defenders.

Moncrief
DJ
Payton
Dumars
Rodman
Cheeks
Robertson
Cooper
Blaylock
Maxwell
Starks
McMIllan

While also having elite rim protection behind them all.

[Jamaaliver]

Noone ever had to do this. Kareem retired when Ben Wallace was 15 and Duncan was 13. Walton retired even earlier and was mostly injured througout the 80s.

And it's not like Jordan or Bird for example had to face elite defenders every week either. Even Bill Simmons, a huge Bird fanboy, states in his Book of Basketball:

The dirty little secret of Bird’s success: fantastic timing. His heyday (1980–88) coincided with the last generation of all-offense/no-defense forwards (Dantley, English, etc.), and that’s not counting all the fringe swingmen (Ernie Grunfeld, Gene Banks, etc.) and clumsy power forwards (Kent Benson, Ben Poquette, etc.) torched by Bird on a routine basis.

1. My point was that the league used to be filled with dominant Centers. MVPs, DPOYs, Hall of Famers.

The landscape has changed so much that a great player at the position is challenged less than their forebearers.



2. I'm pretty certain Hakeem faced off against every player on that list.

Kareem, Hakeem and Jokic are the three greatest Centers I ever saw.

[JM00n69]

The question in the title is the best offensive player ever.

To me that means someone who ranks historically at the very top as an elite playmaker, elite as a top all time scorer and is elite in the clutch.

Jokic is in his early prime years still and has another few years to really buff up his resume. It feels odd to rank a pure center like him as a top playmaker all time but Denver runs their offence through him and he's proven that he is historically great at setting up his team mates. The very top AT tier for best playmakers imo is Magic/CP3/Nash/Stockton. I think he's in there now, if not very close.

Top pure scorers all time I'd be thinking MJ/LBJ/Durant and probably Melo/Kobe as well in no order. I'd never think a center would be in the contention for this but he can get a bucket pretty much whenever he wants and also has enough range so you can't leave him open outside.

[Jamaaliver]

Jokic is one of the best ever.

Could Jokic average these numbers in a league where he had to face off against:

Spoiler:

• Kareem,
• Hakeem,
• Robert Parish,
• Bill Walton,
• Pat Ewing,
• David Robinson,
• Shaquille,
• Tim Duncan,
• Dikembe,
• or Ben Wallace every week?

It's really hard to say...

To be fair, you're lumping a bunch of dudes together from different eras spanning three decades.

I'm pretty sure Ewing and Hakeem faced off against every other player on that list.

But...would Jokic dominate on the offensive end playing 30+ games against 1-8 on this list? It's really fun to think about...

[dhsilv2]

Could Jokic average these numbers in a league where he had to face off against:

• Kareem,
• Hakeem,
• Robert Parish,
• Bill Walton,
• Pat Ewing,
• David Robinson,
• Shaquille,
• Tim Duncan,
• Dikembe,
• or Ben Wallace every week?

It's really hard to say...

Those guys were never in the league at once...I'd venture to guess a lot of players would struggle with ALL of those guys at once.

[hardenASG13]

Jokic is one of the best ever.

No argument there.

Is he the singular best offensive player ever?
IDK

For one thing, offensive numbers are inflated in this modern era. There's no disputing that fact.

Also, I suspect that a part of Jokic's dominance is that he doesn't have many peers at his size/position to challenge him on either end of the court.

Could Jokic average these numbers in a league where he had to face off against:

• Kareem,
• Hakeem,
• Robert Parish,
• Bill Walton,
• Pat Ewing,
• David Robinson,
• Shaquille,
• Tim Duncan,
• Dikembe,
• or Ben Wallace every week?

It's really hard to say...

Yes , the offensive numbers in this era are inflated. Yet, they keep posting them, over and over and over. Eye test is also disregarded in this crowd, as is playoff success, marquee playoff moments, takeover factor, etc. To many here it's just numbers on a sheet as the end all be all. It's why so many here were shocked when this greatest offensive player ever lost yet again last year to a quality playoff opponent, an opponent that had never reached the second round and went on to lose in 5 to Dallas, who was completely outclassed in the finals.

I find it laughable that people who follow the league so closely think the best player ever is just the guy who is arguably the best now. This 5 year stretch has been putrid in terms of stars and great teams.

[Raps in 4]

..Personally, I still have Steph ahead of him.

Offensively Jokic has 4 better postseasons than Stephs best. Steph doesn't belong in this conversation at all.

Does he? How are you determining this?

[JM00n69]

Jokic is one of the best ever.

Could Jokic average these numbers in a league where he had to face off against:

Spoiler:

• Kareem,
• Hakeem,
• Robert Parish,
• Bill Walton,
• Pat Ewing,
• David Robinson,
• Shaquille,
• Tim Duncan,
• Dikembe,
• or Ben Wallace every week?

It's really hard to say...

To be fair, you're lumping a bunch of dudes together from different eras spanning three decades.

I'm pretty sure Ewing and Hakeem faced off against every other player on that list.

But...would Jokic dominate on the offensive end playing 30+ games against 1-8 on this list? It's really fun to think about...

Those guys in their prime if you'd add them to a team this year Jokic would best Brad/Vlade/Rik/Mutombo (great low post defender then put him in a modern pnr every time he's getting cooked). He'd bdo well against Zo I think. Timmy is an interesting one because in his prime he was a top defender and very very high BBIQ but I'm not sure if he'd have the strength to stop him. Same with Dream tbf. Shaq/Ewing/Drob defo would give him a big challenge.

[Optms]

He isn't even better than Curry so no.

[jbsays]

Also, I suspect that a part of Jokic's dominance is that he doesn't have many peers at his size/position to challenge him on either end of the court.

Could Jokic average these numbers in a league where he had to face off against:

• Kareem,
• Hakeem,
• Robert Parish,
• Bill Walton,
• Pat Ewing,
• David Robinson,
• Shaquille,
• Tim Duncan,
• Dikembe,
• or Ben Wallace every week?

It's really hard to say...

Noone ever had to do this. Kareem retired when Ben Wallace was 15 and Duncan was 13. Walton retired even earlier and was mostly injured througout the 80s.

And it's not like Jordan or Bird for example had to face elite defenders every week either. Even Bill Simmons, a huge Bird fanboy, states in his Book of Basketball:

The dirty little secret of Bird’s success: fantastic timing. His heyday (1980–88) coincided with the last generation of all-offense/no-defense forwards (Dantley, English, etc.), and that’s not counting all the fringe swingmen (Ernie Grunfeld, Gene Banks, etc.) and clumsy power forwards (Kent Benson, Ben Poquette, etc.) torched by Bird on a routine basis.

Is that true though? Bird was playing against guys like Michael Cooper, Bad Boy Pistons (Rodman, Lambier, Mahorn), Bobby Jones, and beat a Rockets team in the Finals that had Olajuwon, Rodney Mcray, and pre-injury Ralph Sampson. Simmons didn't reference any of the top defenders of the era.

I will say Bird had better teams than Jovic has had thus far in his career. But, Bird still won 3 MVPs in a row and 3 rings. He was either the best or second best player in the NBA during that stretch.

[LeBronSpaghetti]

Jokic is one of the best ever.

No argument there.

Is he the singular best offensive player ever?
IDK

For one thing, offensive numbers are inflated in this modern era. There's no disputing that fact.

Also, I suspect that a part of Jokic's dominance is that he doesn't have many peers at his size/position to challenge him on either end of the court.

Could Jokic average these numbers in a league where he had to face off against:

• Kareem,
• Hakeem,
• Robert Parish,
• Bill Walton,
• Pat Ewing,
• David Robinson,
• Shaquille,
• Tim Duncan,
• Dikembe,
• or Ben Wallace every week?

It's really hard to say...

This argument is just crazy to me. As if there’s no good big men now so we just have to say “Idk it’s impossible to say! We just don’t know how he’d do!” Also the implicit assumption that “back in my day” players used to only play against the likes Kareem, Walton, Shaq, Robinson, Wallace, etc. Go back and look at a list of centers in any of the eras you mentioned. It’s a list of about 25 nobodies and 3-4 greats, which is exactly what we have today, and exactly how it’s always been throughout NBA history.

How does he do against AD, Giannis, Gobert, Draymond, Embiid, Bam, Wemby, etc? The answer is he dominates them just like he does against everyone.

[jbsays]

I'm easily taking Jokic over Bird.

Bird is 67 and has a bad back.

[Sedale Threatt]

Jokic is one of the best ever.

Could Jokic average these numbers in a league where he had to face off against:

Spoiler:

• Kareem,
• Hakeem,
• Robert Parish,
• Bill Walton,
• Pat Ewing,
• David Robinson,
• Shaquille,
• Tim Duncan,
• Dikembe,
• or Ben Wallace every week?

It's really hard to say...

To be fair, you're lumping a bunch of dudes together from different eras spanning three decades.

I'm pretty sure Ewing and Hakeem faced off against every other player on that list.

But...would Jokic dominate on the offensive end playing 30+ games against 1-8 on this list? It's really fun to think about...

Yeah, but again, they faced them at varying points in their career. For example, 1984 Bill Walton is not the same as 1977 Bill Walton. Again, Kareem's defensive skills in the 80s, even when he was still winning Finals MVP, weren't close to where he was in his prime. Hakeem and Ewing were both pretty much washed up by the time Wallace became a starter. And so on.

And yeah, I think when you have the breadth of skills Jokic has -- elite post-up player, elite 3-point shooter, elite playmaker, elite rebounder -- you're going to do just fine against any competition, in any era. His numbers would change, but that's mostly down to differences in pace and playstyle.

Because honestly, when you're including guys like Rik Smits and Vlade Divac on a list, much like somebody else did yesterday with Rony Seikaly and Ervin Johnson, you're somewhat scraping the bottom of the barrel.

Very, very nice players. But Smits was a career 15/6 player who made one All-Star team, never averaged 20 and rates out as a negative defensive player for his career per DBPM. What exactly was he going to do to slow down Jokic?

[Sweet Serenity]

Wilt had a season where he averaged 24, 24 and 8

You realise that means nothing in the context of this question ?

[nikster]

Jokic is one of the best ever.

No argument there.

Is he the singular best offensive player ever?
IDK

For one thing, offensive numbers are inflated in this modern era. There's no disputing that fact.

Also, I suspect that a part of Jokic's dominance is that he doesn't have many peers at his size/position to challenge him on either end of the court.

Could Jokic average these numbers in a league where he had to face off against:

• Kareem,
• Hakeem,
• Robert Parish,
• Bill Walton,
• Pat Ewing,
• David Robinson,
• Shaquille,
• Tim Duncan,
• Dikembe,
• or Ben Wallace every week?

It's really hard to say...

Yes , the offensive numbers in this era are inflated. Yet, they keep posting them, over and over and over. Eye test is also disregarded in this crowd, as is playoff success, marquee playoff moments, takeover factor, etc. To many here it's just numbers on a sheet as the end all be all. It's why so many here were shocked when this greatest offensive player ever lost yet again last year to a quality playoff opponent, an opponent that had never reached the second round and went on to lose in 5 to Dallas, who was completely outclassed in the finals.

I find it laughable that people who follow the league so closely think the best player ever is just the guy who is arguably the best now. This 5 year stretch has been putrid in terms of stars and great teams.

And you keep posting this "eye test" argument about taking over games over and over again with no actual comparisons to back it up, or consistency in what you mean by that.